Joe 0:00

Arthur C. Clark and Stanley Kubrick sat down in 1964 to invent the future of cinema. But while Clark wrote a clear science fiction novel explaining the deepest mysteries of alien evolution, Kubrick turned it into a two and a half hours surreal art film where nobody speaks for the first 40 minutes and a giant glowing baby floats through deep space. So it's on the podcast, but I was watching this movie last night, and my wife came home and I was about an hour into it. And she's like, Oh, she's like, Okay, you know, I told her I was watching it. She was not really interested, but said she'd watch it with me, but she's like, start it without me. So she comes and she sits down, she starts watching it, and she goes, Did Tom pick this movie? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, Tom picked it. Is he mad at you?

Tom 1:06

So uh I'm not mad at you. And as I said, this is considered one of the greatest films of all time.

Joe 1:12

I just uh some might say it was uh the greatest film of all time, according to uh uh what was it?

Jen 1:19

Stanley Kubrick?

Joe 1:20

No, not Stanley Kubrick.

Jen 1:22

Oh, okay.

Joe 1:23

In 2022, Sight and Sound uh did a poll, and international film directors voted this the number one greatest film of all time.

Tom 1:33

Okay. I I uh I mean we'll get into the you know, we'll I we'll get into what seems to be some disagreement about that. But um I will say this. Um my family occasionally watches these movies with me as well. I told my son, I was like, do not watch, do not, it's it's not like there's you cannot enjoy this film. Like there's no way you need to be able to be comfortable with just sitting and watching stuff and nothing of nothing particularly happens, and like you just slowly get a mood.

Joe 2:09

The total opposite of what a kid would want to do.

Tom 2:13

I can give you like a a 15-minute cut.

Joe 2:18

I'm not gonna lie, I watched a good portion of this movie at 1.25 speed.

Jen 2:23

Oh my god, I should have.

Tom 2:25

Um I I'm sorry, I I would say like and I'm I'm sure we'll get into this later on, but I like I was I was wondering whether you were gonna watch the the this movie or at least the back half of this movie while under the influence of uh well I thought I thought I probably would enjoy it a lot more, so I definitely intend to re-watch this movie um while consuming uh psychotropic substances.

Joe 2:54

I think I imagine it'll be a wild ride.

Tom 2:57

I can't even like the well, we'll get it, but the end of this movie is makes you feel like that anyway. I can't imagine what it's like when you're actually on and I think part of the reason for it's uh the whatever box office success that it had was specifically that. People just coming back as high as possible.

Joe 3:18

We'll talk about that as well, and MGM's marketing pivot. This is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big and our small screen. I'm Joe 9000.

Jen 3:36

I'm Jen 9000.

Tom 3:38

I'm Arthur C. Tom.

Joe 3:40

Oh, and we are discussing the I should say, we are taking an incredible voyage to Jupiter or Saturn, depending on whether you want you like the book or the movie. Uh, and Beyond the Infinite, dissecting Arthur C. Clark's uh 1968 novel, 2001, a space odyssey, and Stanley Kubrick's landmark 1968 film adaptation. I will say it's definitely a landmark. I won't argue that. As I was watching this movie, I just kept thinking, like, man, Star Wars bit so much off of this movie in terms of like all of the space stuff.

Tom 4:24

Yeah.

Joe 4:25

Um and pretty pretty amazing accomplishments in terms of visual uh effects for 1968.

Tom 4:33

Yeah, well, uh, you know, I will give you that two hours. It's like two hours into the movie, but like the the stuff on the stuff on Discovery, like there's just like like the the middle of Discovery where they have the giant like hamster wheels like the fact that he was doing that like in camera is bananas.

Joe 4:53

So yeah, first contact with the material, Tom.

Tom 4:56

Oh man. Um I'm a Cinephile to a certain extent, so I was always kind of aware of the movie, but I read the book and saw the movie for the first time in my teens. I actually I think saw the sequel film, which is a much more traditional movie, um, very good, but just like a regular movie. Uh I actually saw that first, uh, because they used to play it on like channel 11 and stuff when we were kids. But uh yeah, I want to say like 14, 15.

Joe 5:25

Wow. Jen? How about Joe?

Jen 5:28

Joe, I had a friend once who suggested this movie to me. We're no longer friends. No, I'm just kidding. Um Tom asked me to read it for the podcast, so I read it and watched the movie just uh in the past two weeks or so. No, it's uh yeah, that's when I watched it and read it. I I knew of it. Obviously, I know the music, the whole thing, kind of, you know, pop culture references, but didn't uh have never experienced the full story until now.

Joe 5:59

Yeah, you definitely haven't experienced the full story until now. Um hold on. Let's see.

Jen 6:05

I don't know, but wait for it.

Joe 6:51

It's it's a Swedish children's orchestra playing. It c it went viral and they were playing it on ESP and on the on the l uh afternoon drive show. They just kept playing it. God now you know why I was like, I gotta I gotta play this. I gotta play this.

Tom 7:19

Oh my gosh. I do not mean to be, I didn't know that it what it was, and I don't mean to be laughing at kids. That is great.

Joe 7:27

I know it makes me it makes me happy. If you're uh if you're ever having a bad day, just listen to that and it'll make you smile. Uh Jen, same same experience here.

Jen 7:41

Okay, good.

Joe 7:43

I've never seen this movie. Yeah, it was one of those movies that I knew about. I've never seen it. I was like, one, I'll see it one day. And yesterday was that yesterday was that day.

Jen 7:54

Oh, yeah, it took me a couple of days to get through it.

Tom 7:57

So I I suggested to both of you, and I guess based on the timeline, you didn't follow my suggestion. That's alright. No, I suggested to both of you to watch the movie and then read the book, which is really usually the opposite of of how things go. But like the movie is like what the fuck is going on, and the book just tells you what's going on.

Jen 8:18

Tells you exactly what's going on. So it's weird because like you watch the movie and it's almost like the movie's asking you to like interpret it yourself, especially the end, but then you read the book and you're like, oh no, don't interpret it. Here's what's happening. Right. Well, there's weird. So like I already knew.

Joe 8:36

Yeah, it's still a little esoteric.

Jen 8:38

Well, I did have to consult my my friend and mentor, Chat GPT, to give me a little bit of insight into what was going on. But yeah, it's definitely more than what you get in the movie, which is nothing at all.

Tom 8:50

Yeah, the the oh, I mean, okay, well, I feel like the movie is like completely like just feel it, man.

Jen 8:59

Yeah, but I'm not a yeah, that's not something I do.

Tom 9:04

I don't feel it. I don't feel it.

Joe 9:06

So I I will say this, I do think, whatever it's worth, horrible like it's this whole episode's gonna be Tom trying to get us to like this movie.

Tom 9:14

No, yeah, yeah. But like one of the reasons that I said it, besides the fact that like, you know, whatever the impact, the visual impact of the film or whatever, is that like the the film is in the most generous terms, very deliberate. And like, if you know where the story's going, I feel like you're even more impatient to get to the good stuff.

Joe 9:37

Yeah, I will say this. This movie could have been about an two hours and been better. If they if they cut this down to two hours, it would have been better.

Jen 9:47

What you said about being impatient to get to the good stuff is usually how I feel when I watch a movie first and then read the book. Because the good stuff is usually in the movie. Like and then you're reading the book and you're like, okay, there's all this extraneous shit that I don't care about. I want to get to like the good parts that I've seen already. But if I read the book first, then I have a background.

Joe 10:10

Right.

Tom 10:10

I hear what you're saying.

Jen 10:11

To know, but I would and I was just like, oh my God, like And the book the book moves.

Tom 10:16

The the book moves. The book moves.

Jen 10:18

Nothing really happens. There's very little that happens.

Joe 10:22

It's a lot of description and the prose is very beautiful. Like I I really appreciated Clark's writing.

Jen 10:31

Yeah, it's good. The book, yeah, it's just like, but if you're breaking it down to like plot, there's very little plot. Very fair, it's very little plot.

Tom 10:39

But it's good. And there there there are chapters that are in even in the book that I think moves that the chapters are just like, and then you know, moon gazer thought, and this is the stuff he thought about. You know, it's like or whatever. Like it's just like these are the inner thoughts of an ape-man.

Jen 10:54

Yeah. I handed Dan the book today because I was like, read these literal two pages where like Hal's whole the reason behind everything he does. Just read these two pages like this. We get that to that later too, but it's wildly feels wildly different. Oh, it is wildly. Without really knowing in the movie? Yeah. Yeah. That's a big change.

Joe 11:16

That's probably the biggest change.

Jen 11:18

Yeah.

Tom 11:19

Well, it's contextless, like they give you like one.

Jen 11:23

Yeah. It gives a little bit of context.

Joe 11:25

Yeah. But if there's a little bit, but it's different. It it's more different.

Jen 11:29

In that part, right, in that part is even more than what you get from him to them. Like what he says to him. Yeah, all right. So where are we going? Where are we starting?

Joe 11:40

To really understand 2001, a space odyssey. Let me take you back to the spring of 1964. Sorry. Uh I had to go back to it for a second. Kubrick had just finished Doctor Strange Love, and he wanted his next project to be the proverbial good science fiction movie. He reached out to British hot hard sci-fi master Arthur C. Clarke, expressing a desire to collaborate on a story about man's revelation to the universe. I'm sorry, no. I'm sorry, let me say man's relation to the universe.

Tom 12:20

It was a revelation. It was a revelation to the found man's relation.

Joe 12:25

Yes. Kubrick was determined to move past the cheap B movie tropes that dominated the 1950s cinema. Bug-eyed monsters, no rubber suits, no pie plate flying saucers. None of that. No. So Clark agreed, and he brought out a 1951 short story he had written for a BBC contest called The Sentinel. Um, the Sentinel was simple but profound. Explorers on the moon discover a small pyramid-shaped alien artifact. It isn't a weapon, it's a tripwire. An ancient alien species left it on the lunar surface, waiting for humanity to evolve enough to travel into space and set it off. Clark combined the Sentinel with another of his short stories, Encounter in the Dawn, which dealt with pre-human ape men receiving an intellectual boost from alien victory. Pretty clear cut uh that they took that. Yep. Now here's where the story gets fascinating. Clark and Kubrick decided to write the novel in the screenplay at the exact same time, between 1964 and 1966. This is uh very unique. We have not experienced this at all. And I I don't know of any other uh maybe we'll come across one in our podcasting episodes, but we definitely haven't come across something like this before. Uh Clark holed up at the famous Chelsea Hotel in New York City, bashing out prose chapters while meeting constantly with Kubrick to debate orbital mechanics, alien philosophy, and narrative structure. But as filming got underway in England, Kubrick began cutting dialogue on set. He was stripping away the narrative scaffolding. When Clark finished the novel in 1966, he expected it to be published right away to build hype for the movie, but Kubrick stopped him. He systematically blocked the publication of Clark's book until 1968 in July, three months after the movie had premiered in theaters. Why? Because Kubrick was terrified that Clark's clear expository prose would ruin the cryptic visual mystery of his film, which we just talked about. Yes, that was all intentional. And I think I get it. I I get why Kubrick did that. Um because I feel like if people would have read the book then saw the movie, it would have probably done worse.

Tom 14:39

Yeah, I think you're I think so.

Joe 14:42

Um as I was doing the research for this, Tom, I was like, oh, this is why Tom said to to do that. One because that's the way it happened, right? The movie came out before the book, so nobody besides you know Clark and whoever his test readers were, editors were had read the book before seeing the movie.

Tom 14:58

And and yeah, I I wasn't aware when I was talking to you about that that that Kubrick had deliberately delayed the publication of the book. Um but yeah, I I mean I I I do think like I think knowing knowing what is going on like during the end especially like takes away some of the magic of what the fuck is going on right now. You know? Um yeah, but I think I think there's a really interesting, you know, process, like you said, like of of them kind of crafting story together and then going back and forth between writing pros and the death death screenplay, and you know, things happen that like they moved it in the movie from Saturn to Jupiter because Kubrick's effects guys couldn't get a realistic looking like rings of Saturn. So we said, scrap it, we're going to Jupiter instead.

Joe 15:52

Yeah, fine. That makes sense. Like, I get that. That's very practical. Like, we couldn't get it to look we couldn't get Saturn to look right, so we said, fuck that, let's do Jupiter. It's easier. Yeah, but that's fine.

Tom 16:03

And and I will say this for those of you who have who have seen the sequel that I mentioned earlier or read the multiple sequels that Clark wrote, um, all of those take place. He just he just made a Jupiter in all the sequels.

Joe 16:16

He just retrofitted to Saturn into Jupiter.

Tom 16:22

Yeah, and it's very like specifically Jupiter for the for for the sequel for reasons, but whatever.

Jen 16:28

I have a I have a question before you move on. Like I'm being serious when I asked this question. Why do you like not knowing what happens at the end of the movie?

Tom 16:40

Why like why Okay.

Joe 16:46

Sorry, Tom, I'm gonna answer for you before you get a chance to answer. Because while I was watching this movie and especially the end part, I was thinking very much David Lynch.

Tom 16:56

I think, yeah, I think there's obviously there's something in me that likes this kind of stuff. Uh I think that's that's that's spot on. And that's where I thought you were going with Sarah asking if I was the one who picked this movie back in the beginning. But like I also think that if you watch the movie multiple times, which I have, like while not understanding the mechanics of anything that's happening at the end of the film, I think it's really clear what happens in the movie. I think the movie actually tells like a really clear story, but like you have to like like you have to just kind of absorb that. And I don't normally like stuff like that, but I think there is a lot of nuance in the film that like Kubrick like deliberately made it so slowly paced so that you would almost be forced to pick up like this kind of like uh whatever, like Dave Bowman's arch and eyebrow. Like whatever, but like that is that that's resonant with so much meaning because no one said anything for two minutes. You know? And you're like so. I think I think I'm too much into it, but like to see to have it start off with the evolution of apes to man, okay it's to me it's it's very clear that whatever happens to him at the end of the movie is the next step of human evolution. And he's the first one of that, and he's you know, whatever. He ages, he dies, and he's reborn.

Joe 18:21

And like it's he the dragon?

Tom 18:25

No, no, I don't think he I don't think so. I think you know theory.

Joe 18:29

Maybe it is. But I think like the first dragon.

Tom 18:34

People feel like this about the shiny, which I hate the shining, the Stanley Kubrick movie. I think it's a terrible adaptation. I don't hate it, but I think it's a terrible adaptation of the book. Um but he was trying to do the same thing with the shiny that he did here, which is basically like, can I make a science fiction film that is also high art? When science fiction was like movies were considered the lowest of low art. They were like all cheesy schlock. And and for him to say, like, I want to talk to the themes of like what does it mean to be a man, or what does it mean to be human? Um and and express that in this manner. Like, I don't know. I have a feeling it's cheesy, but it speaks to me, Jen. That's all I can say.

Jen 19:16

I just don't, in general, like a movie that ends and I have to either decide what it is, like a lot of like the wrestler, like or uh what's the other one?

Joe 19:27

The wrestler.

Jen 19:28

So he like jump okay, but he jumps off and you don't know if he dies or lives. So like I don't think it matters. I'm just saying it does no, but it matters to me because I sat and invested myself into a two and a half hour movie.

Joe 19:41

I think the point of that movie. All right, we're gonna talk first just short sidetrack to the wrestler. I think the point of that is like he's a wrestler, that's who he is, and that's who he wants to be, regardless of what it means, like what what the what the consequences of that are. Right. It doesn't matter if he dies or he lives when he does that. It's just more like he doesn't care if he if he if he's gonna die for doing this. That's the whole thing.

Tom 20:05

Yeah, the the the the the climax of that movie is not him jumping it. It's it's him it's him deciding to go into the ring again. But I will say, I think specifically Black Swan ends explicitly with her dying to to answer the critics of people who did not understand whether he dies or not at the end of the rest of the room.

Joe 20:25

But I just gonna do Darren Aronofsky thing. We want to talk about pie or yeah, well so there's another one.

Jen 20:32

What's the other what's the Requiem for a Dream? No, Inception. Oh, Inception with the Top.

Tom 20:37

Well, it's I can I stood up and applauded, which I hadn't done since I love the movie, but like just tell me what happens at the end. I think again, I think but when you watch Inception multiple times, I think it's clear what happens at the end of that movie. But like when you watch it the first time, you're just like, what the fuck? I know your uh your friend of the show, uh, your husband Dan's favorite movie, uh uh, or one of his favorite um his favorite uh Nolan movie is is Interstellar, which hopefully you understand is just 100% a ripoff of this film. Yes, yes. Everything that happens in the everything that happens in the last hour of Interstellar is just this movie. It's just this movie.

Joe 21:18

Yeah, this is the yeah. I've never seen Interstellar, but I know that that's heavily influenced by this movie.

Tom 21:25

He goes he goes to a black hole instead of a monolith, but it's the same, like it's that's what it is.

Jen 21:31

Like But you know what's happening. He's going into a wormhole and he's seeing he's going like seeing his daughter.

Tom 21:38

It's this movie, I think, uh made for a mass audience. That's what the Interstell I love Interstellar, don't get me wrong, but like I feel like now having seen this movie, if you were to watch Interstellar again, you would be like, oh, that's what they're doing here. And oh, that's what they're doing there, and oh, that's what that is, and like that's what this film, whatever, we're all over the place now, but like Joe, you mentioned earlier and like they're thinking about this and not having bug-eyed aliens or flying sauces or anything like that. Like it was as they went through the drafts of the movie, like originally the aliens that created the monoliths were in the movie or in the book. And then they they slowly are like, we don't really need them, we don't really need them here. And like it's actually better if they they're not in it at all.

Joe 22:22

Funny story. Did you know that Kubrick tried to take out an insurance policy on this movie in case aliens made themselves known before the movie was released?

Tom 22:33

Stanley Kubrick seems like a weird dude, Joe. Yeah.

Joe 22:36

He was denied. He was denied coverage, though. The insurance company wasn't sure how to underwrite that.

Jen 22:42

I'd love to have Brendan on to discuss that.

Joe 22:45

Yes, let's call Brendan right now. Brendan, how would you underwrite the appearance of aliens?

Jen 22:53

Send the Kubrick to Brendan's desk.

Joe 22:57

I want to ask him now and see what he says. Uh now I'm curious. But yeah. This is a strange movie, that's for sure. Um, so at the premiere of this movie, it was uh bit of a roller coaster for Clark. Uh it's the story goes at the Washington, D.C. world premiere on April 1st, 1968, Clark reportedly walked out of the auditorium during intermission in tears. Fill a jug with his tears. Tears. Fill a jug with his tears. He was overwhelmed, dismayed, and deeply unsettled by how radically Kubrick had stripped away all the explanatory voiceovers they had spent years writing together.

Tom 23:41

No one knows what's happening.

Joe 23:43

Yeah. In 1972. In 1972, Clark actually published a book called The Lost Worlds of 2001, releasing his private journals and discarded draft chapters, including early versions where the ship's computer was named Athena and was played by Zendaya. No.

Jen 24:03

And had a female voice. I get it.

Joe 24:07

Just to set the record straight on how the narrative evolved. Uh, when the novel finally hit shelves in mid-1968, it became an instant bestseller. For science fiction readers, it was an absolute lifeline. It gave them clear, scientifically grounded framework that explained everything Kubrick left unsaid.

Jen 24:24

I wouldn't say everything, but a lot of what you can't when I was trying to pick a quote for tonight, I was like, I better listen because at a certain point no one's gonna be talking anymore. I was like, I don't know if I have much dialogue left to pick up.

Tom 24:38

Yeah, I think the last dialogue is probably like 45 minutes before the movie's over.

Jen 24:43

I was like, I have a I'm gonna lose my intensity.

Joe 24:46

Open the is it open the door at Hal? Is that like the list?

Jen 24:50

It's it's how you get like the explanation of what's going on.

Tom 24:54

Dr. Floyd is the last line sent in the movie.

Joe 24:56

Yeah, it's the video uh that they sent to him, right? Explaining what was going on. Yeah, I forgot. No, I forgot I then I was thinking it was Hal powering down, but it's like that happens right after as Hal powers down, the video plays. Yeah. Yes. Uh yeah. Uh so so the movie. So, all right, before we before we talk about that, but I do feel like they worked on this together, right? So it sounds like a lot of the stuff that was in the book Kubrick knew about and they had been talking about and discussing and a lot all of that. And it's like Kubrick was like, this is too this makes too much sense. We need to take stuff out so it doesn't make sense, but just leave in enough stuff that it could make sense.

Tom 25:42

Could make sense.

Joe 25:43

That's basically what it's it seems like. It's like, let's take out anything that gives explanation to what's going on.

Jen 25:49

It's just like you're watching everything happen, right? But with no content. You know, you're not getting any internal thoughts or and there's a couple of things that he changed where I'm just like, what this like reactions that people have to the like some I don't know.

Joe 26:03

It's it was like a challenge. You know, it's like people complain about adaptations and they say, right? Because when they when you put something from a book to a screen, you can't just say it like, or you can't have someone narrate it in a sense. Like you have to figure out a way to show that thing. Kubrick was like, no. He's like, I'm not, I'm not dealing with that crap. I don't want to deal with that. I'm just gonna put exactly what's in the book on screen, and like you said, without the voiceover to expect.

Tom 26:28

Well, isn't that any, yeah. So like there's a and I I there's a very famous cut that happens in this movie, which I think I was probably that's probably the first real awareness of the movie, or one of them, because I think it was only The Simpsons or something like that. But like when it cuts from the past to the future, right? Or well, yeah, from the past to the future, that's how the movie was made. Um it's very specific what you're seeing, and it's never it's never addressed, explained, or whatever. You just have to know what you're looking at. And if you don't, you don't get what what that cut means. So like I don't know why I'm being vague.

Joe 27:09

You mean after the ape man when it cuts to present day?

Tom 27:14

Yeah, well, yeah, it's yeah. So it cuts, right? He's uh he's banging the bone, he's killing the guy, he throws the bone in the air, and you see the bone spinning in the air, and it cuts to a satellite. Yeah. And like it's not said it's never addressed, but that satellite is not a satellite, it's a it's nuclear it's a nuclear warhead in space. And so like the idea is not only that apes have evolved from that to space travel, but like technology is still a weapon. And like that's the full meaning of that cut. And if you don't know what you're looking at, you don't get that. And the only way to s to know that is to I I guess see the movie on a giant screen eight times until you're looking at what the words are on the satellite.

Joe 28:03

I have a question about that now, because you said that. Yeah. Because in the book, yeah, when he goes back to become Star Child, he blows up a nuclear warhead, right?

Tom 28:14

All the nuclear warheads, yeah. He destroys, yeah. Oh, it's an old nuclear warheads? He destroys all the nuclear weapons around Earth. And so that was the original intent of the film. And literally, like in the edit, he's like, Well, I just did Doctor Strange Love, where they blow up a nuclear weapon. Like, I don't want to be like the nuclear weapon guy, so I'm not gonna even like I'm gonna let people guess what he's gonna do when he gets it, yeah. That was like so he filmed it, or at least he doesn't want to be pigeonholed into nuclear weapons. I think he felt like it was like too dup duplicated. So he he took it out and left it like, what's what is the what is the sergeant?

Joe 28:50

So he but he did because I was about to say, in the book, you don't there's no pre you don't know about a nuclear warhead in the book.

Tom 28:57

Yeah.

Joe 28:59

So he maybe put that in as like he he laid it, he laid it in, he laid the groundwork group and pulled it off, I guess, in the book.

Tom 29:08

So it's a it's a it's a on that like there's a there's a payoff to the beginning of this book that happens at the very, very end of the sequel to the book. So something that happens like in the first two chapters of the book gets paid off in the last chapter of the sequel. So there's a lot of that kind of lay the groundwork for the long game in these books.

Joe 29:28

So let's let's take a quick look or talk for a minute about how this project the movie was you know got off the ground. So the timeline moved remarkably fast at first. After their initial meeting in early 1964, Kubrick and Clark pitched the project to Metro Metro Goldwyn Meyer. Uh in December of 1964, MGM and Cinerama agreed to finance the film under the working title Journey Beyond the Stars, setting an initial budget at $6 million, which is a lot of money in 1964.

Tom 30:02

Yeah.

Joe 30:03

Uh MGM was eager to green light the project in the mid-1960s, uh, was the height of the space race, and the public was obsessed with NASA's Apollo program. Uh Studio Exec saw 2001 as a prestigious big budget blockbuster that could ride the wave of space travel mania. Uh in February uh 1965, the title was officially changed to 2001 A Space Odyssey. Principal Photography began on December 29th, 1965 at Shepperton Studios in England. Uh so uh let's see. I will say this. Um, Tom, you kind of alluded to before, said it straight out, and I think we've been kind of discussing a little bit about this already, but it was like the philosophical scale of the movie that Kubrick was attracted to, and he won he he got complete autistic control over every frame because he wanted to make this uh visual myth about the past, present, and future. Kind of seeing some themes here, um, and the future of human consciousness. You get and I to be honest, you get that from watching this movie, yeah. I think, right? I mean, I don't think there's anything I don't think anyone can debate that Kubrick made the movie he wanted to and got across, or like I don't I don't know, yeah.

Tom 31:26

I don't know if you can say, like, oh, I know what he was going for there, but I think you can say like I feel like you understand that it you understand like it's clear what the scope of this film is. It's man's past to man's future. I think that's like relatively clear.

Joe 31:42

But I think I I think you get the you get the tone. Like the tone is what Kubrick wanted it to be. Like he did a great job of of getting across the tone that he wanted to get across of it and and the mysteries and questions that he wanted people to ask about it. Um I agree that all that came across could have been could have come across a little quicker. That's all I'm saying.

Tom 32:03

Yeah.

Joe 32:04

Uh so the the budget on this movie uh kind of blew up a bit. Can't imagine. Um yeah. Kubrick being that perfectionist and wanting complete control over it, that collided with reality, uh, and the need for more money. And the budget went from six million to over ten and a half million. I think it wound up ending at around 12 million dollars, give or take a million. Uh, and took four years for him to finish this movie, which is insane.

Tom 32:32

Yeah.

Joe 32:33

Um, Kubrick wanted to simulate artificial gravity aboard the spacecraft Discovery One. Instead of using cheap camera tricks, he hired a British aircraft manufacturer, Vickers Armstrong, to build a literal 30-ton rotating drum. Uh, it was 38 feet in diameter, 10 feet wide, and cost $750,000.

Tom 32:54

Unbelievable. He got it. Yeah, he every penny's on screen.

Joe 32:58

Yeah, actors had to walk up the walls inside the giant revolving wheel while loose props were bolted down to prevent them from falling. When I was watching this movie, I'm like, I was like, this has to be a spinning set. That this has to be a spinning set. Because clearly it's not there's no like visual trickery here, right? He's not, it's not like he has people like he's turning the camera.

Tom 33:19

Yeah, I I think it it it really blew people's minds like when when they first saw it, because like how like I I remember something like Penn and Taylor said about magic, which is like part of what makes magic work is that you spend so much time and effort doing something so like so min minute and stupid that no one would believe that that's what you did. And I'm like, like people are like, how did he do that? I was like, no, he just built it. He built a thing that moved. Like that why would you build that? So he built it. The stuff that gets me that I can't I I and I didn't want to go like too deep into the the the making of stuff in part because like I think it ruins the spell of it, but like he does a bunch of like weightless stuff when they transfer from like a hallway to a door. Oh, yeah, yeah. And like that stuff is just nuts to me. How he's getting like double rotation, I guess, kind of a thing. Like that drum is spinning, like almost maybe inside of another drum.

Joe 34:18

Oh yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about when it goes down when they when they go down the hallway into the spinning room. But there's also the other scene when he's on the the aircraft and the the stewardess, which I can spend like I can spend a half hour talking about the stewardesses the stewardesses and their outfits and she made a good impression on you, Joe. Um Right walking up the side of the wall.

Tom 34:43

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, and then like plucking the pen out from space and putting it in his pocket or whatever. There's so many um so I I did read something about the the the stewardess who plucks the pen out. Like she was like kind of walking weightless, like with the velcro stuff. She apparently was very hungover, and like part of her was like just her trying to get through the day, and it worked really well on camera. So good for her.

Joe 35:13

Yeah, good for her. Acting.

Tom 35:15

That's it. Method.

Joe 35:17

Yeah. Uh what else? So the the the opening, the dawn of man sequence. Uh, so Kubrick hated traditional rear projection because you could see the blue screen lines around the actors in the ape suits. So he built a massive front projection system using 8x10 uh color transparency shot on location in Africa, projecting them onto a 40 by 90 foot retro reflective screen inside an English soundstage. Did you get all that?

Tom 35:48

No. So but good, good for him.

Joe 35:52

Going back to like I think usually, right, that if they wanted to do like a background, they would project it onto the background from behind it.

Tom 36:00

Yeah, like the the actors would be here, the camera would be in front of them, and then underneath them would be projectors projecting the wall behind me, would turn into the African landscape. And because it's a projection behind you, you look like on Zoom when you have a fake background and you can just see like the weird outline on your head.

Jen 36:17

Oh, because they weren't in Africa.

Tom 36:19

Yeah. So like that was like that projection was behind the screen, for rear projection. So the screen's behind you, the projection's behind the screen. This is a front projection, so now the projections like you're interacting with the light.

Jen 36:31

Okay, okay.

Tom 36:32

So you don't have the weird cutout.

Joe 36:35

Yeah. Um, yeah, so the the the footage that was taken in Africa, that's what they were projecting, footage of Africa onto the onto the uh the screen in the English in the sound stage at the studio. So the wild card of this production was the casting of Hal because originally uh British actor Nigel Davenport was hired to sit off camera uh on set and read Hal lines. So uh Keir and I'm I'm not probably not gonna pronounce it.

Tom 37:04

Kier Dalia.

Joe 37:05

Dalia? Okay, Keir Dalia and Gary Lockwood uh had someone to act against, but Kubrick decided Davenport's accent was too distractingly British and he fired him. Uh so then what did he do? So who somebody had to finish reading Hal's lines for the for when they were filming, so they got an assistant director with a thick cockney accent uh to do it.

Tom 37:31

I was reading Bert from Mary Poppins now.

Jen 37:33

Um, didn't he have another guy and then fire the second guy?

Joe 37:38

Isn't that what it's so after filming wrapped, Keir hired Oscar Martin Balsam to record Hal's voice in studio in New York? Balsam recorded the entire script, but when Kubrick listened to the tracks, he felt Balsam sounded too emotional and he scrapped the recordings entirely.

Tom 37:54

That's that's it.

Joe 37:56

Enter the fourth person to voice Hal.

Tom 38:01

What's his face? Did that with um Mike Jones did it with the movie Her, right? Oh yeah. They filmed the whole movie, they had a voiceover. I can't remember. I never saw the movie, so I don't know. But I think it was Scarlett Johansson, then they replaced it with Samantha Morton, or vice versa.

Joe 38:14

Vice versa. Scarlett Johansson's the voice in the movie, yeah.

Jen 38:18

Yeah.

Tom 38:18

So um yeah.

Joe 38:21

Uh so finally Kubrick hired Canadian actor Douglas Rain. Rain flew to Toronto, met Kubrick, and recorded Hal's entire performance in just nine and a half hours across a two-day session. Nine and a half hours, he has like there's maybe ten lines in the movie.

Tom 38:36

Hal has the most lines in the movie.

Joe 38:38

Probably. Well, I would say maybe Dr. Floyd. He's he gives a whole speech.

Tom 38:43

Dr. Floyd might have the most words in the movie, but I think individual like lines of dialogue. How Hal has the most words.

Jen 38:49

Hal says the same thing over and over, or like in a bunch of is I would say like it is. What are you doing, Dave?

Tom 38:56

It's it's I'm I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that. Like it's such a great performance. It's just Hal 9000. Like the concept of that, this is why that's why there's so much, there's very rational fear about AI. Let me let me preface that. But HAL 9000 is the irrational fear about AI. HAL 9000 is why the Terminator movies happen. Like the idea of uh a computer that is smarter than people and could also lose control is is this is it. This is this is where this all comes from. And and the just the complete calm, rational tone to everything he says um and at the end of his part of the film when he's like when he's asking Dave not to do it, like it's just yeah, very well done.

Joe 39:52

To get that cold, completely uninflected, relaxing voice. Uh Douglas Rain performed his lines barefoot, resting his feet on a pillow with Stanley Kubrick sitting four feet away in the sound booth. Rain uh recorded the entire performance without ever seeing a single frame of footage.

Tom 40:09

Excellent.

Joe 40:11

Yeah.

Tom 40:12

What are you gonna go? Oh, so I'm like a red dot. Got it. You know, like oh yes.

Joe 40:17

I'd like to meet this, Dave. Uh yeah, that's kind of interesting. I can't believe it took nine and a half hours, though, to do this. But I guess if you're working with Stanley Kubrick, yeah.

Tom 40:29

Yeah, he's gonna be like, I need you to do it. Do it again. Yeah, do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Exactly.

Joe 40:34

All right, we'll use the first one. Um all right, should we start getting into the movie? Into the movie? Let's let's do. Because I have some things I want to talk about and some things about the book as well. And I almost want to ask, but I feel like we've jumped to the end so many times already that we'll just take it back to the beginning. We'll get there. We'll we'll get there when we get there. Um I too, of course, know the iconic music of this movie and was very excited when it started. And there's some comical appearances of this music, I will say, but we'll get to that in a minute. Because in the movie, we get an ape man smacking a pig like right in the first minute or so, which is amazing. And then a leopard comes jumping out and eats one of the ape men, which is again amazing. So I'm I'm all for this.

Tom 41:22

Right. I mean, I don't I don't know why anyone would have any problem with the first part of this film. There's leopards, there's warthogs, whatever.

Joe 41:30

I think this the opening sequence, the dawn of man sequence, is probably the best part of the movie.

Tom 41:35

It's I think it's I think it's you're watching it this last time, and I I guess I watched it probably a couple of weeks ago. Um I it was more obvious to me, some of the things that I don't know if I got necessarily the the first few times I saw it, about like the apes are afraid of the dark. The apes are like they live in fear. Everything's in fear. They're afraid of the dark, they're afraid of the other ape tribe, they're they're afraid of the cougar, like or the the leopard or whatever. And like like I feel like watching it now, like, oh, it's very clear like that. That's part it's not only that their their their intelligence gets increased by this, but like the they use their intelligence to deal with their fears. You know what I mean? Like they're afraid of this, they're gonna they they have they're gonna use it to address this. Uh but yeah, the whole scene of them with like when the monolith appears and you know, in the book it's the shape, it's shaped the same, but the monolith changes colors and and and it has projections and shows symbols to them. And here it's just a black monolith.

Joe 42:39

And it's it plays it plays an eerie sound, which is I mean, it doesn't play an eerie sound, but there's always the monolith has its theme. Yeah, where it's got that weird it's it's like uh it sounds like a choir doing weird dissonant, you know, chanting almost. Um, I'm pretty sure it's human voices doing that, but uh I didn't do the research on that one, but it sounded like it to me.

Tom 43:03

Yeah, it's like one of the only pieces of uh soundtrack for lack of a better term, or score, that's not a very well-known classical musical number.

Joe 43:15

Yes. What made me laugh watching this was that when the they're fighting over a puddle in the book, and I'm like, in the book, wasn't it a river that set that separated the two of them? And then like I'm I'm just picturing in my mind like Stanley Kubrick thinking, like the studio going, we can't afford a river, damn it, Stanley. You have take the puddle or take it or leave.

Tom 43:41

Right. We gave you the drum already, Stanley. Please.

Joe 43:45

I just yeah, I just feel like Stanley Kubrick's like, we couldn't afford a river. We had to deal, we we had to settle for a puddle.

Tom 43:51

A muddy puddle. Yeah, it makes it more like it makes it more desperate, I would say, you know. But yes, as I I I I noticed the same thing.

Joe 44:04

I wanna I have a question though, because I'm confused about this in the for the book and the movie. I think I know the answer, but I just kind of want to ask the question anyway. When I when I was reading the book, right? So the the column the monolith appears, um, and then later on we go and uh with Dr. Floyd and we go to the moon and the monoliths on the moon, and I'm like, for a second, more than a second, I thought, were these did the ape men scene, the the dawn of man part, take place on the moon?

Tom 44:33

Oh no.

Joe 44:35

No, the monolith move, because I've I think then I remembered, I think, in the book, the monolith. Was that a second or it's a second monolith?

Jen 44:41

Second monolith.

Joe 44:42

Doesn't the monolith it disappears in the book?

Tom 44:44

It disappears. Yeah, and they don't even remember that it was there. Um, so there's no like even trace memory almost of it. But the monolith in the moon, they date that it's been in the moon for like three million years.

Joe 44:57

Yeah, in the movie they say four million, but in the book it's three million. I don't know why they changed that. Maybe I hate when they do stuff like I hate when they do stuff like that. Like why? No way.

Tom 45:07

I don't like I don't like the number three.

Joe 45:09

It's four.

Tom 45:11

Um but yeah, I think that the that doesn't the mat I think it's a different monolith.

Joe 45:16

I don't think that's why couldn't you leave it three million, Stanley Cooper? Why did it have to be four? Why do you have to change that?

Tom 45:22

I don't know the answer, man. He's a weird dude.

Joe 45:26

Uh what was another movie we did something like that where they changed the amount of years like by like a for no reason. Just like an odd amount, like it didn't make any sense. It wasn't like this makes well why right I don't know why do they do things like this? I feel like they do it just to make other people angry. I'll show them. Watch this, I'll change it to well, the book didn't even come out by that point. Oh, maybe that's why. Maybe Kubrick didn't know how many, maybe it was just like a communication issue. Like they were like, uh, three or four million years, and then one did three and one did four. One did four, yeah. They just they didn't get together and discuss it. All right, I'll give you a pass. What were you saying, Tom?

Tom 46:02

I don't remember. Uh yeah, so I I I think at first when I first um watched it, I thought like, oh, the monolith disappeared and then it went to the moon. Yeah. But like the timing does I I don't know if the timing for that works out as to when like when apes evolved to man, if that's million like three million years ago or not.

Joe 46:24

I don't think I think it's much closer, right?

Tom 46:27

Right. So I think the one on the moon was there first. And then and then like as animals evolved to a place where they might be able to evolve into critical thinking creatures, the second monolith came to to to drive them forward.

Joe 46:44

Well, uh so did that mean.

Jen 46:48

I thought they the second monolith went there so that when they were ready they would know.

Tom 46:56

Yeah, I think you're saying that.

Jen 46:57

But didn't they already have to know about like the men? Maybe you're right. Yeah, maybe it is. And then they were like, alright, now that we talked about, we'll put it here, and then when they get there, we'll know like to come back or whatever it is. Yeah, I don't know. Something like that. That's what I thought. But also, did it was it buried or did he did they put it there and then over the years of the moon existing it got buried.

Tom 47:25

No, they buried it. I mean, in the book it's explicit. In the movie, it's slightly different what happens, but in the book it's explicit that they bury it because it's like it has to be found and dug up, and when the sun's rays first hit it, that's when the trigger goes off.

Jen 47:43

So it's not enough to just get to the moon. Right. You have to get to the moon and discover this thing and then dig it up.

Tom 47:48

And dig it up, and like so in the movie, it doesn't go off until Dr. Floyd touches it. Which is like a slight variant.

Jen 47:58

Well, it's the sun. I think it's a yeah, that was a lot of stuff.

Joe 48:04

Yeah. Apparently a lot of stuff was around three million years ago.

Tom 48:08

Okay. Well, Homo erectus uh appears like two million years ago. I think that's the first.

Joe 48:15

Let's see.

Tom 48:16

And also this was written in the 60s, so they may have not known.

Joe 48:20

I don't know. Clark was pretty uh meticulous about that stuff.

Tom 48:24

Yeah. No, I'm saying like the science is only is what the science was. They could have thought it was three million years ago, or it could have been like, hey, eventually this is gonna evolve. They're still ape, very apish, yeah, you know, in the in the movie.

Joe 48:38

Okay, so question about this then. So it's a different, it's a different monolith. Jen, as you said, it was put there, and and I think I talked a little bit about it uh when we're talking about the book, it was put there as a by the aliens, so that when the creatures of Earth were ready and able to travel through space, they would find it and set it off, uh, setting an alarm for the aliens that put it there. But now, and I know I'm jumping to the end, but this is this doesn't even this is not even discussed in the movie, or I don't even think implied, but in the book, when he goes through the monolith on Saturn and he goes through the wormhole or whatever, the time space travel whole thing, and he pops out, he's at another civilization. Like he he talks about how he sees all the metal like work, and it's like yeah, it's like a civilization constructed in space, like not on a planet, but he says it's clearly there's been no activity here, and that whatever species was here is dead and gone.

Tom 49:47

Right. So I think he it is it is addressed a little bit, I think, at the end of the book, not the movie. None of that is touched upon. No, yeah, you don't see that at all. It's expressed like he's so in the book, his travel through the monolith is much more like it's much more clear travel. Like he goes to like a way station and he goes into a different monolith, and then he goes, and then he goes to the like the like that structure is like an international like truck stop, like or interstellar truck stop or whatever, and then he goes through all these, and then he gets to wherever he gets to.

Joe 50:24

With the moon, with the the sun, and then the the the white dwarf star that's right rapidly circling around the other oh yeah, right, and then the and then room that he is is in that is in the sun, right? Um but when he's just yeah, then he just flies into the sun.

Tom 50:40

But when he when he comes out, he talks about how there's a there's a bit in the book about how they've evolved beyond physical form, and they don't think they could just kind of mentally travel the stars now. So that alien civilization that that that mastered interstellar travel, I think still exist, but they exist beyond the need for spaceships.

Joe 51:02

So they've they've uh ascended, so to speak, yes, from from physical form into pure spirit or energy.

Tom 51:11

Energy and yes, energy and spirit, I think, combined both like as one, but yes, and because they talk about how there's a bit in the book where they talk about how on that pathway they first gained immortality through technology, moving their their brains and their thoughts into like bodies of plastic and metal, and then they move beyond that and and not they don't need physical form at all anymore, and like that's where Dave Bowman eventually ends up. He's a he's a baby on that part of his metaphysical journey, clearly, if you could see our background, but um he they've evolved him to that point, basically implying that that's if like if the movie basically to my mind is like if man can stop destroying themselves, they have the opportunity to also get to this point where they can evolve beyond the need of uh for for um their physical bodies.

Joe 52:10

Alright, and I'm gonna make some inferences, and we're still still not out of the first part of the movie, but I'm gonna make some inferences from that where so potentially these aliens have traveled all over the universe, multiverse, um, setting these little tripwires or alarms um in the hopes that and I guess they're they're setting them in deliberate places, right? Clearly places where they know life can support life or some sort of form equivalent of life. Um and then just so they can share their evolution and the potential of those species evolution, what it could be.

Tom 52:54

Yeah, I think so.

Joe 52:55

Just as like a hey, check out what we were able to do.

Tom 52:58

Almost like I I I I I's sharing their technology, yeah, in a more benevolent way. Like there's no there's no there's no indication that Dave Bowman has any debt to them or must do what what what he's being told to do. He just is.

Joe 53:16

Alright.

Jen 53:18

Um I have a question because Light Blinded Fool posted a picture in the chat, and I don't remember this part like of him like looking at a robe in the room. Does that happen in the movie?

Joe 53:32

I don't remember I don't remember him looking at the robe.

Jen 53:38

It looks like he sees somebody eating, but then it's him eating at the table.

Joe 53:43

I think this is supposed to be before that. I think this is supposed to be him when he first gets in the room and he's like looking around in the room. It might just be a cut scene or it could be a f a photo.

Jen 53:56

I don't know.

Tom 53:58

He goes to the room, he sees, I think he sees stuff in the closet, then he goes into the bathroom.

Jen 54:03

He goes in the bathroom, he comes out, and then there's like a weird cut where it looks like you hear cutlery, yeah, and it looks like there's somebody else there, but then it's just like it's him. Older eating, and it's like yeah. Is that supposed to indicate that he's been there that long? Because he's not there that long. He's there like one day in the book. Like, why is he old?

Joe 54:23

Um, that's a choice Kubrick made that I think just I think that was a choice that Kubrick made to kind of get across or convey the convey something that's in the books that he actually was like, Oh, I kind of want to convey this, but I I I have to adapt it in the sense where I was talking about before where like Kubrick was like, I'm not gonna adapt it so people understand it. I'm just gonna put what's in the book, and people are gonna have to try to figure it out without the exposition and the the uh inner monologue. This is a part where he actually was like, No, I'm gonna adapt this because I want to show people that there's like some sort of evolution or like aging or passage of time.

Jen 55:04

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Joe 55:06

What I really thought was funny though, was when the um when the ape first picks up the bone and starts to swing it, and the music kicks back in.

Tom 55:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 55:22

And then they've got the pig and they're cutting to like the pig, but they're not really hitting the pig, but it, you know, it's supposed to be like they're hitting the pig. Right. Um right.

Tom 55:30

He's it's it's sorry, go ahead.

Joe 55:33

I I just my note here is it's kind of funny, but beautiful.

Tom 55:38

Yeah, I I think like man discovers the use of tools. His first tool is to kill, but to kill to feed and get stronger and to improve him and his his his family's.

Joe 55:51

But we didn't do that on our own. Aliens came and gave us the knowledge.

Jen 55:56

Right. So if they didn't come, we there'd be we wouldn't even be here right now.

Joe 56:01

Yeah, aliens were just like, these guys are moving way too slow for us. Let's let's slip them some of the answers so they can get on with it.

Tom 56:08

Right. So I and again, in the movie, it's much more like it's an ominous choir as a mystery, and yeah, all of a sudden, like you can see, oh, I get it gives you a clear sense. Oh, he can think at a different level now. These apes have developed the ability to use tools, and that's gonna put them on the you know, on the up and up.

Joe 56:28

But all the apes were great in this movie. The ape men were awesome. Like kudos to all those people who played Ape the Ape Men. Serious, I'm not even kidding. Like, yeah, I was like, these guys are great, and the ape women, yes, and the ape baby. There was an ape baby, I believe.

Tom 56:41

It was an ape, yeah, it was like um in the book as they go through it, like some of them die in the process of like gaining the knowledge or whatever.

Joe 56:52

If we would have gotten to do Congo, we would have had a connection with the apes.

Tom 56:56

We'll get there eventually.

Joe 56:57

Intelligent apes, uh technology making apes talk. I don't know. We would have gotten there, we would have gotten there somehow. We'll get to it. Yeah, I'm sorry. I really enjoyed it. I didn't think because I heard about this is like one of the parts of the movie that I've heard about like, oh, the beginning is just a bunch of ape people, and I've seen clips of this, and I'm like, I'm expecting to watch like 30 minutes of just apes yelling at each other. Right. But I was pleasantly surprised by um the story that he was able to tell with these apes. And I guess I guess it helped knowing like what was going on in the you know behind between the ears, so to speak.

Jen 57:35

Yeah, I definitely didn't picture them as such as as much ape-like as they are in the movie. I pictured like cave cavemen.

Joe 57:44

Yeah, I did too, I think a little bit, Jen. I pictured them a little bit in between what we saw in the movie and cavemen. Um but I I wasn't gonna be able to do that.

Tom 57:53

Yeah, they're they're very gorilla-y in the films. Right.

Joe 57:57

Um I guess to make them seem more even more primitive.

Jen 58:01

Yeah.

Joe 58:02

Yeah.

Jen 58:02

So this is like the exact moment when like ape turns into man, like starts evolving into man. Yeah, this is it. It's if they were apes before.

Tom 58:11

Right. And it I mean, again, like the what the what the movie implies, the book makes clear, right, like they're starting to like these these these creatures, wherever you want to put them on the evolutionary chain, are capable of considering how to survive day to day. But they're incapable of like thinking or planning or think or even considering what tomorrow is going to bring. Each day is like a just survive the day. And they understand, they have an understanding of the world, but not in any kind of like I can impact the world. They live in fear, and then like um this thing comes, it broadens their horizons and it gives them the tools to see. So in the book, they spend a lot more time with them, like like f like physical time. You get to see the apes like not evolution, but you get to see these individual apes like become stronger and bigger and healthier and gain the benefits of uh being able to use tools and and and then there's a quick slide, there's like a chapter, it's just like another in space, you know.

Joe 59:19

Yeah, right. I mean, I think right he does he sections the book, right? There's different like sections of the book. I think there's three sections, um, and the chapters within those. Yeah. Four, sorry. And then the yeah, there's chapters with each each of them. So yeah, you know, it's and I guess you get that, obviously, knowing that this is based off of kind of two short stories that he like link together, and just clearly, you know, there's there's a change. Um, just looking it up, so homo s Homo erectus uh lived as long as 1.89 million years ago.

Tom 59:53

Okay. So yeah, maybe just back then they thought it was older, and that's yeah. Right.

Joe 1:00:00

But that's yeah. I mean, that's on our world. Right. That's on our planet in the world we live in.

Tom 1:00:04

And this movie was made a long time ago, so that was like two million years ago.

Joe 1:00:08

Yeah, 60 something, that's like a million years ago.

Tom 1:00:10

Right. Feels that way.

Joe 1:00:12

I feel like I also feel that this is probably a good place to end the episode. Yeah. Uh, and then pick it back up, quote unquote, next week. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, join us over on Discord, YouTube conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, Twitter, go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe. Rate our videos, whatever you listen to us, podcasts, check out our YouTube page to support us that way. Links to all the updates and information, all included in the show notes to this episode. Thanks everyone for listening to the next time.