Shelf to Screen
Ever argued that the book was better? Or wondered how a 1,000-page epic fits into a two-hour movie?
From the creators of the Talk'aran'rhiod podcast comes Shelf to Screen, a deep dive into the transition of sci-fi and fantasy stories from the page to the premiere. Join Joe, Jen, and Tom as they dissect the newest adaptations and the cult classics, exploring what was lost in translation and what found new life on screen.
With the effortless chemistry and sharp wit you’ve come to expect, the trio tackles everything from Arrakis to Westeros. Whether you’re a "book-first" purist or a cinema enthusiast, tune in for insightful analysis, hilarious takes, and a celebration of the stories that are too big for just one medium.
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Shelf to Screen
The Odyssey (part 2)
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What happens when the greatest hero of the Bronze Age is actually just a man drowning in his own guilt? This week, we continue our journey through Christopher Nolan’s gritty adaptation of The Odyssey. We dive deep into the island of the giants, the muffled screams of the sirens, and the practical magic that made the crew applaud on set. Did Odysseus really want to go home, or was he just running from his own history?
Hear Joe lose his mind over the literal pile of dung outside the palace doors! Hear Jen describe the visceral horror of Samantha Morton molding human flesh into swine without a single frame of CGI! Hear Tom break down why this adaptation is actually a companion piece to Oppenheimer!
We explore how Matt Damon captures a hero who has lost his faith in the gods and himself. It is a meditation on trauma, hospitality, and the end of civilization as we know it. All that, plus the reason why Nolan had his actors buried alive in the Icelandic sand!
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Last time on shelf to screen. In a time of apparent magic, I have a lot of questions about the decision to do that. Not that I think it was a bad decision, it just seems out of nowhere. Is she really Athena, or is it just a figment of Odysseus' imagination or like a coping mechanism? Is that his spinning top?
JenThere was none in this movie, and now you're making me angry.
TomWhether that is Athena or not Athena, Athena is choosing to appear like that.
JoeI think I finished the whole, almost my whole bucket of a large popcorn before like the halfway point of this movie.
TomYeah, well, there was also what, seven trailers, I want to say.
JoeI want to say I might have finished over half of my popcorn before the movie even started.
JenI said I wasn't gonna eat any of my pretzel nuggets until I saw um first I said until I see Odysseus, and then I was like, no, that's gonna be too long. When I see Tel Telemachus, and then I I gave up on that. But then you saw you see Odysseus for like a second on the beach, and I was like, oh, I could have got I could have held out until he saw him.
JoeI yeah, this is movies though nowadays. The last like couple of years, it's like just like a dozen trailers before the movie. I'm like, I don't ever remember it being so so bad. They really want you to come back to the movies. That's all that's what it is.
TomThere was that trailer, I don't even remember the name of the movie now. Like was it like the other mommy or something like that? Yes, the other mommy, yeah. I I jumped like out.
JoeI was sitting next to Tom. I'm at the very end, and Tom's next to me, and I think Jen, you were next to him, and then Brendan was with us. And we're watching that trailer, and there's that one scene where like the mom's like, I remember when you were in my belly, and you're like, Oh, she's like the mom's acting a little creepy to the little girl. Then she's like, I remember before you were in my belly, and I'm like, What? What is going on?
TomAnd then it like got creepy, and then like she's all twisted, like it's like the mother comes in and she's not there, and you think it's gonna be like one of those things where you're like, ooh, and then the father looks and sees her, like, all twisted up and jumped out of it. The father falls through a glass door, and I did too.
JoeLike that was that might have been the best part of the uh the movie going experience. Maybe I thought I lost all my popcorn before the film starts.
JenHorror movies on non-horror movies. People don't want to see that.
JoeOh man, it's just become absurd with the um with the amount of uh trailers that they put in front of movies. So um, this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big and or small screen. Um, who am I gonna be? Um uh uh I don't know who I am. I'm Jonan.
JenI'm Jen Calypsgrow.
JoeAnd I'm Helen of Tongue. Oh, I can't wait to sack you later.
TomJesus.
JoeAnd we are continuing our Odyssey into the Odyssey uh part two of this epic adventure of the original epic adventure. Um I'm gonna be like, we last left off with our heroes fleeing the Cyclops into their boats.
TomThat's right.
JenSome of them.
JoeSome of them.
TomMost of them are still alive. Most of them, yes.
JoeYeah, only a few get eaten. Yeah, like this is like this whole journey, just a bunch of Odysseus's men just die. I know, not get not to get back into the cyclops scene, but he just right, they just stay there for a couple of days and just like they know that like, well, some some of us are gonna get eaten tomorrow, like or tonight. So, but like that's what we can do about it. So we're just gonna have to wait and get eaten and hope that it's not, you know, is it you.
JenIsn't there a part in the poem where they're like we're they're gonna like tie themselves to the sheep, but there's like too many guys, and they're like, Okay, well, we'll just wait till like two more people die, or something. Yes. Like, yeah. That way we can go, like, so whoever it is, like sorry guys. Yeah, yeah.
JoeHe literally says, Well, we'll wait one more night because two of us will be dead, and then there'll be enough sheep for us. Oh my god. I mean, I I I applaud them for not trying to figure out how to tie Matt Damon to the bottom. Well, Matt Damon, I think, goes on to one sheep, right? The other ones all take two sheep, but uh I applaud Christopher Nolan for not trying to strap his actors to a sheep, to multiple sheep in the movie.
JenWhat do they oh they put stuff on their backs, right? They put like hay or something on their backs. It feels like a sheep, yeah.
JoeAnd they kind of crawl out with the sheep. Um, yeah. I was thinking, like, I wonder what they're gonna do about that, how they're gonna do this. There's no way they're gonna strap them to the sheep, are they?
TomNo, no, no.
JoeThey didn't. Um, so then, right, so they leave, they escape the Cyclops, and they go now. This is the next the next island they go to is with the giants, right?
TomYeah, yeah. Yeah.
JoeI love the way they do this.
TomIt's crazy, right? So like right, they film this with very, very, very, very tall stunt performers and very short female stunt performers dressed up as the Ithacans. So this is not CGI making these people look big or small. It's not even trick photography. It's just very it's it's the old jokes that we used to have with Jed and Brendan.
JenYes. Yes, it's me and Brendan, except the Brendans are seven and a half. It's like Joe. It was like people or eight.
TomIt's Jed dressed as Joe from the back.
JenYeah.
JoeYeah. And I I love the introduction though to these giants is that they see they they see somebody from behind, they think it's like a man, and it turns around, and it's basically like a giant toddler.
JenYeah.
TomNo, no, no, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry.
JenBut then, like all of the giants are just waiting there in armor to storm them.
JoeIt was a little weird, but it's it is a little weird, and they don't say a word. Not none of them say anything. They just come and start killing them, and it's just like it's literally like ants running away.
TomYeah, again, this is just like you've you've you've you've wandered into something you shouldn't be in. And this is where a lot of his men die, right? Because there's three boats, and now there's only one.
JenWell, they take two boats.
JoeYeah, they smash two boats. They yeah, they they chase them. First of all, they just start killing them and like they have them surrounded almost. Yeah, and it's every man for himself at this point. And they, you know, they they make some of them make it back to the boats and they run into the water and just start smashing the boats with their swords, and they crush two of the boats.
TomYeah.
JoeIt was pretty terrifying.
JenThree boats. It was because not everybody goes into the Cyclops. There's a lot of guys that stay on boats.
TomYeah, it's a landing party, yeah. Yeah, yes. So it's but now now things are bad.
JenYeah. Now you've lost like two-thirds of the guys.
TomAnd like this is the second island that you've landed on to get supplies.
JenAnd have not gotten supplies.
TomAnd have not gotten supplies. Yeah.
JoeBut they don't leave the island, they sail to the other side of the island.
TomThey well, yeah. Well, they don't know it's an island either. They talk it's land. And so I Odysseus says, like, instead of leaving, let's sail west until we can find another place where we maybe we can find something to get food.
JoeIs this now where they go to the burning village and the and they're like, oh, what happened? And they're like, Oh, we thought you were, you know, raiders, so we burned our own village before you could do it. Is that what basically happens?
JenYeah, yeah. I don't know.
JoeAnd is is this the first mention we get of like the the pirates, the or like the sea people?
TomYeah.
JoeNow, I didn't know this, but apparently this is a real thing, like a historical thing where there's like this whole uh kind of myth about these people from the sea who came and and basically like sacked a bunch of like basically like the Mediterranean or I guess the Aegean or over in that area, because like nobody knows what happened to these places. So there's like this myth that these people from the sea came.
JenOh.
JoeNot not like in this story, in this thing where it's like, we're the people from the sea.
TomThat's a big that's a big reveal.
JoeThat was a little, yeah, that was a little uh I don't know. I didn't like that. That was maybe one of the things I didn't like about this.
TomThey start laying it on, right? So it's a couple there's a mention of it here, and there's a mention of it, like I want to say um there's a mention of it before is it before Telemachus leaves or or or sometime in the middle of that? And then it starts getting laid on really thick in the in this in the back half of the film. And like, yeah, I'm not a big fan of it. Um I I will say this, like, that's why they act the way they do in the Cyclopses lair, right? Because they that's that's what it is.
JoeIt's it's this it's But I mean that's what they do in the story though. They literally go places and just like attack the people and raid the they do raid these like villages and towns.
TomLike that's you know, whatever. Like they do a hundred percent. And they don't there's no moral there's no moral quandary in the story about their behavior, like, you know, that that's something that no one has taken and and and extrapolated out into in the story, right? Taking the idea of Zeus's law and taking the idea of how these people behave and and and how Troy was won, and and tying that all into one, you know, coherent theme.
JoeUh yeah, I mean I mean they cut out so like there is a whole like I believe in the story the first place Odysseus goes is they go to like raid these Trojan allies and they basically kill and loot and slaughter them. Um but then uh I think uh eventually like they loot they have to flee because the the Trojan allies like get some friends over or something like that. Um and then they go to another island which they have the lotus flower, right? There's lotus flower at another island where they all start eating it and they kind of stay there for a while. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember.
TomIt's like a month, I think.
JoeUh until they realize it's like a whole island of lotus eaters.
TomYeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JenUm man. Eat the lotus.
JoeThe giant, uh the last uh what are they called? Lastragonians. Last dragonians are the giant people. Yeah.
JenYeah.
JoeApparently in the book they're they're cannibals too, but I don't think they're cannibals in in the movie.
JenWell, we don't really see what happens after they leave.
JoeYeah, we don't see them try to eat anybody.
JenI I guess because the cyclops ate the live people. Maybe they cook them.
TomYeah, there's a part where they're running in the woods, a few of the soldiers, and there's definitively like a trap that they run into where all of a sudden like there's woods, there's trees on b other side of them, they can't move.
JoeYeah, and there's there's uh Lastragonians come off like flank them too.
TomYeah.
JenSo like Yeah, like I mean, I eat a cow, but I'm not gonna like take a bite of a cow as it's running past me.
JoeOh, I didn't say that. I'm just saying there's no indication that they're cannibals in this. Well, that's what I mean.
JenThey could be gathering up the bodies and then cooking them.
JoeYeah.
JenUm but then a Lastragonian style.
JoeYeah. A Lastragonian sauce.
JenYeah. Nice stew.
JoeAt this point, we now do I I don't remember. Is this the same island where they go and find Cersei, or do they sail somewhere? This is the same place. Okay. But no, actually, is it because don't they land here and then his men right? The men are starting to lose a little faith in Odysseus, right? His men and what's his face? Uh Himesh Patel, uh, whatever his character, I can't remember his character.
JenSounds like a name. Just say it really quick, and it sounds like a name from uh Hemeshpatel.
JoeUh yes.
JenOdysseus and Hamesh Patel. Eurylocus. Eurylicus.
TomThey see from the village. They see, I think they see up on the hill, uh, like they just see uh a place with a light on.
JoeYes.
TomAnd they're and they're like, we're gonna go take a look. You can't go.
JenYeah, you stay. Yeah.
JoeWell, I think that right there, like I think their thought is like, you're cursed, man, because of what you did to that Cyclops. Poseidon hates you, not us. So you stay away from us. And also, like I feel like he's been trying he's been the stuff he's been saying they need to do, they're not necessarily agreeing with him.
TomRight. Um they're blaming him for taking this path already. Like why we could have just gone home, and you were like, No, I want to go a different way, right?
JoeYou knew a shortcut.
TomYeah.
JoeOdysseus and his shortcuts. Um, so they go up to the house and we meet Cersei, who uh very interesting choices. This might be the best scene in the movie.
TomIt's the most horrifying scene in the film by by far. Um, right.
JoeSo as they're walking up, they see like a tiger and they they see a lion. And right, Odysseus is like, I'm gonna go hunt and get us some food. You go ahead, go go visit the house. You have fun. I'm gonna hunt this deer. We get the bow, right? And I I don't, we've already had the flashback of Odysseus and his bow and his bow trick, yeah, right. And he he likes to twang his bow before he fires it, which is again made up for the movie. And and I guess that's like that's part of the guilt, right? Because Odysseus is in the movie, Odysseus's character is like, What is they're like, why do you twang your bow before? He's like, Because I like to let them know that I'm gonna kill them. Like, basically, like, give give fair warning. And he didn't do that in Troy, his plan was the opposite of that, right? The exact like the complete 180 of that. Um, so he does his little twang and he shoots a deer, and then we we see he goes up to the deer, and it's a man, it's a naked man with an arrow in his ass, I think. Or a side, I can't remember.
TomNo, yeah, it's in the side. It's a scene.
JenYou were like folk laser focused on the case.
JoeI think I think I just saw a nice it was a lot, it was a lot of sculpts on camera.
TomA well-sculpted ass. A big IMAX ass.
JenI saw something online that said, like, imagine you're the guy who's like, yeah, I was in the Odyssey. And it's just like your ass.
JoeI was the naked ass.
JenI was that guy in the Odyssey.
JoeBut we're seeing right, and as Odysseus's men are going up the hill, they see like the lion and the tiger, and they're all it seemed very out of place here in uh on a Greek island for sure. Um, and then they go up and we meet Cersei, who's like, Yeah, sure, come on in. I have food ready for you, or you know.
TomRight. Just take all your weapons and put them outside.
JoeYes. Put your weapons outside and come eat this food.
JenDisgusting food.
JoeWell, the way they're eating it is disgusting, I think. I I don't know what's more disgusting. The food itself or the way they start eating it is disgusting.
JenWell, they're eating it with like like they're not in control of their bodies while they're eating.
JoeYes.
TomWell, that's what's happening. It's starting to turn them into pigs.
JoeYes, they're eating it like they can't not eat it. And it's the best thing in the world, but in a kind of bad way.
JenYeah, well, they're like, you could tell that they're like not able to stop eating it, basically.
JoeThey're like trying to, you know, there's like horror in their faces, I feel like there's horror in their faces, and then there's more horror when so so Samantha Morton, we we mentioned is my play Cersei, um, and she starts sticking her hands like in their mouths and pulling their jaws and noses and ears, and it's very vivid visual.
TomYeah, it's it's she's molding them into pigs, and it really throws away. And it starts off like terrible, and then it gets worse with the one guy where she jams her whole arm down, and yeah, what she's like sculpting their their bodies, literally.
JoeAnd I I read about this right, so this is there's no CGI in this scene.
TomThis is I don't understand how that is.
JoeWell, they made these like sculptor things that she was like of the actors that she was able to actually like mold. So that's how they do those scenes. And there's a lot of cutting, right? And a lot of like close-ups, so you can only see like parts of what's going on. But they made like these these literal things that she could literally stick her hand in and pull and sculpt.
TomOkay.
JoeYeah. No special, no, well, not no special specs, no CGI in this in this scene whatsoever. It's quite uh it's quite a scene, I'll say that much.
JenYeah.
TomIt's yeah, it's uh terrible. And like it's terrible. In the poem two, it's much more she's much more malicious, I think. And here she seems to be like traumatized and like possibly a victim of sexual abuse. Yeah, right.
JoeAnd it's I I don't yeah, I don't know.
JenIt's a it's a very preemptively.
TomYeah, she's saying like I did it before they raped me and murdered me or whatever.
JoeYeah, I think this is more of like the the see people, a com like, you know, just I it's like the whole culture of like just raiders constantly, like, you know. Yeah, and again, this stuff happens in the books, right? Like they go places and just start raiding and killing people. Yeah, and like so this, yeah, she's like preemptively preemptive strike, I guess.
TomYeah, and they are pigs, they are awful people. Like, it's not like it's not untrue, and they and they don't have any control over themselves. Like, none of what she's saying is is is a lie, it doesn't make it less and then there's also like so like this it ends right where he's gonna kill her sister who's a crow, I guess, or some sort of bird.
JoeYeah, and he's just like turn, yeah, turn my men back into it.
JenShe's like, go back to your disguises, yeah. Go back to your disguises.
TomShe's so creepy.
JenUh I love her.
JoeShe is very creepy, very different. So this is where I was a little disappointed, right? Because in the story, right, Odysseus runs into Hermes goes to Odysseus and says, Hey, she's she's got a magic potion that she uses, right? Here, take this. There's this stuff will stop the magic potion from turning you into a pig. Um, then just make her swear not to do you harm, and then you'll have, you know, make her swear an oath not to do you harm, and then you'll be okay. So he does that, right? And he and he gets her to turn her men, right? He's he threatens her, turn my men back, and then he sleeps with her. Well, she tries to sleep with him at first, right? Like, yeah, I think Hermie says that she's gonna try to sleep with you. Um, but Odysseus, you know, whatever, makes her swear an oath, and then he stays there for like a year or so, doesn't he? And he's he just having sex with Cersei for a year on the island.
TomVery odd.
JenYeah, not my Odysseus. Yeah, I mean, the movie, um It's like I gotta do what I gotta do.
TomYeah, the movie, I guess in the movie he's more faithful, like there's a more powerful, there's a more powerful luxury. I mean, obviously.
JoeWell, he's not because I mean, if I mean, I think it's heavily implied in the movie that he was sleeping with.
TomYeah, but he doesn't know he doesn't know who he is for most of that time.
JoeOh, I know, I know. I'm just saying.
TomYeah. She's basically ending their relationship by like encouraging him to remember who who he was, knowing that like once he knew who he was, he wouldn't he wouldn't stay with her.
JoeYeah, it's not, I think in the book, right, like Hermes is like, come on, we got we gotta go. He's like, Odysseus has gotta go. You can't have him anymore. Chop, shop. Chop, chop, Odysseus. Come get on this boat.
JenAnd then one of his guys falls off the roof and dies. Remember?
JoeOh.
JenAnd then he sees that guy in the underworld. Oh they have to go back and get his body and bury him. Yeah.
JoeYeah. Yeah, there's yeah. There's no there's no uh leave no man behind in this story whatsoever. It's like every man, let's get the fuck out of here. Yeah, leave every man behind.
TomJust I just we're just trying to get home.
JoeWe just want to go home.
JenWhat are you doing on the roof, man? Get off the roof.
JoeI don't I don't know.
TomSo like, so now he goes, they go to they go to Hades next, right? They go to the underworld.
JenYeah.
JoeYeah, well before so wait, before we get out of here. Yeah, sorry, before we go there. Right, so she tells she tells him like where he needs to go to the to Hades, where where to go, and he needs to talk to Teresius. Um, and then she tells she also tells wait, is she the one who tells him about like the whirlpool and the or is that Teresa's?
TomNo, that's Teresius. Okay, she tells him that none of them are going home except for him.
JoeYeah, okay. So she does say that. Um and and I want to say the one thing I just want to call out, like, I don't know if you've been seeing this or heard the story, like in interviews and whatnot, like with Samantha Morton and and even Christopher Nolan. Like, um, so when they shot that scene, the one you know with her in the hut um and all the men, or or or with Odysseus, um, after like Nolan called cut, like the entire crew broke out into applause. Oh wow for like her performance. And Christopher Nolan said the only other time that's ever happened. I'll I'll let you guys guess if you have. I already know the answer. You already know Tom. Tom, do you know when the only other time Christopher Nolan said that that happened on one of his sets was I'm gonna say it's a Heath Ledger as the Joker moment. Yes, probably yes, it was, yeah, which I thought was really cool. They were just like so amazed by the performance. I mean, she was really good. I really liked it. Not what I was expecting because she was different from the story, but very, very captivating for sure.
TomYeah, it's a it's a very powerful scene. She's very good at it.
JoeYeah, and that's all I wanted to say before we if we want to move on to the to uh Hades.
TomYeah, so she tells him she also tells him how to get to the underworld.
JoeOh yes, the direct she gives him directions. Directions. I love it.
JenNo, I think I think like I don't think they're actually in the underworld. I feel like that's like a that's like a place where it's like like the I can't The line between living and dead. Yeah, there's like there's like a way for them to come through in this location. Because they're coming up out of the ground. It's not like they're walking around like they're in hell. Yeah, they're not getting it. It's just like a space where they can't.
JoeThey're at the Acheron, the river, right? Is that the one river?
JenYeah, they have to go to that like a certain river and do a certain thing, and that'll bring it like open up the gate almost to like access the people that are in the right. Oh, I thought you meant in the in the shot they shot that scene in Iceland.
JoeYeah, with the ball.
JenYeah, yeah, like it's like very yeah, like gray and which was really cool.
JoeThat was a really cool set piece, just like the whole scene. Yeah. Oh, it's crazy. Yeah. And then those guys were actually buried in the sand in real life.
TomYeah, they had like little funnels to little straws to breathe. And then they pull, they pull them out. Oh, great. Yeah. Uh yeah, this scene's terrific, right? This is where you start to This is where you start to get a sense that like there's more to whatever the story is that you've already heard. Like there's more to it, because you're you're starting to get you see Agamemnon's there. Like, what was going on with that? Right? Sit on the case.
JoeIs this uh do we get this scene before uh Telemachus is in Sparta?
TomBefore you find out what happens to him. You just know that he's dead. It's like an it's like an hour where you're like, you know he's dead, you don't know what happened. Oh wow, it's that long. It's a long time, yeah.
JenBecause then we didn't talk about any of that yet. Are we gonna go back to that?
TomYeah, that hasn't happened yet. Like he Telemachus leaves, and then it's a while before you see him.
JoeWell, you go back to um to Ithaca a couple, right, once or twice to show what's going on there.
TomRight, and uh the goth as a spy. Yeah.
JoeThe yeah, the dog, right, with uh with John Leguizama and they throw the dog out on the pile of shit, which is like, why do they just have a pile of shit right outside their front door? Uh somebody should clean that up. Somebody should clean that up. Who keeps a pile of shit right in front of their front door?
JenWell, how far are they gonna walk to shit? That's where the that's I didn't think that was human shit.
JoeI thought that was animal shit, to be honest with you.
TomNo, I think that's I think that's all their shit. I think they're doing that on purpose because fuck this place. Like until you think you think all of the suitors are just shitting right outside the front door or they're shitting wherever, and then it's getting dumped there, and they're like, we're not gonna clean this up until you bet pick somebody. Like they're doing everything they can to like get out of it.
JoeThey wish they should have they should have made that clear. That should have been a part, like a scene in the movie. Somebody clean up that shit. We're not cleaning that up until you pick suit us uh a husband. Um uh well, Robert Pattinson also, I think i in the interim, right, he figures out that she's been unweaving the uh right.
TomThere's that scene every day, and like he tries to like he says, I won't say anything, you know.
JoeHe's trying to be all like, I'm on your side, I'm a good guy.
TomYeah, yeah, and like the scene is like you see it through the loom, and you can see her face, and you see his mouth, really. You can't see the rest of his face. It's like trying to seduce her. And I was like, that's a very artsy shot. It's a much more artsy shot than no one I think normally does.
JoeIt kind of evoked like uh this is my Catholic school uh boy coming out, but it kind of evoked like uh confessional where you know, like Jen, you know what I'm talking about like the screen like that they have between the priests. That's kind of what it reminded me of.
JenLike what she's behind almost for this whole movie where she's like separated from them.
JoeYeah.
JenYeah. And then it's almost like it's cutting to the end, but that's almost like what the scene with where he's like she's like behind the screen and he's facing away from her.
JoeBut the scene with Robert Pattinson, he's back there. He's behind.
TomThey're both there. You can't because of just whatever the weaving is, you can't see most of his face, you just see his mouth. It is like that, and at the same hand, it's also like very much like the devil seducing somebody. Even though again, this is all pre-Christian times. But like um where like he's trying to it's like whatever uh Penelope and and uh Odysseus have sex before he leaves, and then that's the only scene that makes you like realize it's probably a problem for her that she hasn't had sex in 20 years.
JoeUh yeah, but I'm sure she's you know taking care of herself.
TomShe doesn't get a lot of privacy.
JoeShe's not in that that's like not her sleeping room. That's not like her bedroom, her sleeping room. Um we see the bedroom and I think a flashback. I think that flashback with with with Telemachus is a baby right there in the bedroom, is it? Yeah, yeah.
TomYeah.
JoeYeah. So I'm sure she gets privacy in her bedroom.
TomYeah, it's not the same, Joe.
JoeIt's 20 years. No, it's not the same. It's definitely not the same. Well, don't worry, she's committed.
JenOdysseus certainly didn't have that problem.
JoeNo, he had sex with a few people.
TomWell, in the book, in the movie. In the movie, it's implied, it's only one person. And I I know Jeff, but like he doesn't know he's doing it. Well, he knows he's doing it.
JoeI don't think he remembers that he's married.
TomYeah, exactly. In the movie, he he doesn't know who he is.
JenI think if even though it's implied heavily, because that they're like in a relationship for seven years, I think if they showed that, it'd be really hard to to make this love epic love story at the end where they come back together. Even though it's fully implied, I think if it was shown, right?
TomThey don't even like they they walk next to each other. Yeah, yeah. I don't even I don't even think you know, like there's no intimacy between them. It's just her saying you're you were happy here. We were happy together.
JenYeah, we yeah, the way she talks, it's like we were it we were together for seven years we're in a relationship.
JoeSo I I I do feel like their scenes together are very intimate, though.
JenYeah, I mean physical. They're not doing it that we can see.
JoeThey're not doing it.
JenThat visual would be hard to get over.
JoeYes. I d I don't think that's a hard visual to get over. Charlize Theron and Matt Damon having sex. Okay.
JenMaybe for Anne Hathaway it wouldn't be. Maybe not for you.
JoeShe can jump in too. Um Okay. All right. So we we got those cut those cutback scenes to um to Ithaca. Let's go back. We're back at uh Hades or the edge of the underworld, wherever you want to, whatever you want, or Iceland.
JenUm same thing.
JoeHe goes there. The prophet Tiresias comes out of the sand halfway, James Remar. Basically, almost his entire face is covered. You just see the city. I had no idea it was him.
TomI I recognize the voice.
JoeI had to look him up. I had to look it up.
JenI like that he's like not out of the ground all the way, you know. He doesn't get out of the way.
JoeHe's like a creature that's like I mean, how old is James Remar that he's buried in the sand there?
TomLike Oh, he's not that old. Probably like 70.
JoeOh no, wait, hold on. That's not hold on a second. We shouldn't be Oh, 53.
Jen53. Somebody wrote 72 in chat.
JoeNo, no, he was born in 53. Oh, okay. Sorry. He was born in 53.
TomYeah. Also 73 now.
JoeNo, he'll be 73 at the end of the year. His birthday is on December 31st. Ooh.
JenYeah.
JoeYeah.
JenThere's no heaven in this, like everyone's in the underworld.
TomYes.
JenIf you were good or bad, you're suffering. No matter what.
TomThat's where you go when you die, unless you go to once you become a god.
JenYou go to uh Like why is Sinon having such a terrible time?
TomEveryone goes to the underworld. There's that's yeah, that's when you die, that's the land of the dead.
JoeBut there's no it's not like hell where you're not you're not getting tortured down there. You're just down there.
JenJust awful. It doesn't look good.
JoeI think it's for blood.
JenHe's like all muddy and dirty. Is that from coming up through the mud though?
JoeYeah. Yeah.
JenThat's not what he looks like typically.
JoeThey just hang out in the mud. They're literally in the underworld. They're buried beneath the earth. Not under the earth. They are though.
TomThat's not how that works. Yeah, back to the end. Yeah, they're underneath the earth. They're in the underworld.
JenIn the movie. Yes.
TomYou can see the thing.
JenNo, in the movie, that's just how they come up.
TomNo, in the first time. They're not really there.
JoeIt's like hollow earth. They have like a there's a hollow.
TomThe actual story of of of uh what's his face? Uh like it on the the the Donaldfin. No, well, not Donaldfin, the the the the mythological character.
JenI don't know.
TomRight?
JoeUh uh uh what's his face? Uh Robin R.
TomThree of us, Jesus Christ. I don't know. Anyway, like they're coming up from the underworld, and he looks back to see her, right? It's under definitely Orpheus. Orpheus, thank you.
JoeOkay, and Eridice.
TomYeah.
JoeThis was also really cool. There's a lot of cool scenes in this movie. This is a very cool and like very visual, uh, very like intense, right? Uh Teresius is there and he's telling him he's like skipping.
TomThe rest is not for them. It's an event shit.
JoeAnd then you see Agamemnon's there, and does I don't even remember. Does Agamemn I'm Agamemnon's?
TomAgamemnon gives him the advice to not trust anybody and find out what's happening before you when you go home.
JoeOh, he's the one who says to assess the he uses the word assess a couple of times, and I thought that was funny. Um, that that's the word he that they chose to use.
TomWell, okay, if you say that like the version.
JoeWell, I think that's what they say in the book, but it's just funny. It's funny to have like an intense visually like stylistic scene, uh, you know, with it's all dark and people are coming out of the ground, and then he says the word assess assess the situation.
TomUm the language that they use this, right? Telemachus is like dad. Yeah, that threw me off in the mom and dad.
JoeAnd there's a lot of well, I mean, we didn't get to John Burnthal, so like we there's a lot of that with when we get to Menelaus, yeah, which I think might be the next scene, but it is, yeah, it goes to the next. But yeah, Tiresias tells him uh, you know, you need to go uh there's gonna be the whirlpool, and then the other like if you go this way, all you're all gonna die, but if you go this way, only some of you are gonna die.
TomIt's like, yeah, if you go the if you go uh gribb this, we'll all die. If you go towards the Sicilla, only six of you will die.
JoeYeah.
TomAnd so and and again, going back, then when it when that comes up, Odysseus just straight up lies to the men. Yeah, knowing that they don't want to do what he says at this point. He doesn't want to go.
JenWhat they want to go to the whirlpool.
JoeNo, he says he says, let's go to the whirlpool. Speed up speed. We'll pull right off the other side.
JenNo, we're gonna go the other way.
JoeYeah, which is what he wanted them to do.
JenRight, right.
TomLike he's manipulating them at this point.
JoeBecause he knows, yes, you're right, because they've lost all confidence in really in him, basically, by this point. Um, but all the men, right? We get Sinon is also in the underworld who comes up, and basically this is where we find. I think this is where we find out that yeah, right. We know Sinon was left back with the horse, but we we find out here that Odysseus never told Sinon what the plan was and that they were in the horse because he wanted Sinon to, you know, plausible deniability, that whole theory, right?
TomLike well, yeah, they want he wanted it to be honest in talking to the to the Trojans, like what he really believed that this was real.
JoeYeah, we don't know. Sinon's very upset that Odysseus lied to him. Uh Sinon played by Elliot Page, uh, who is it I to be honest with you, in just such a small role was uh really good.
TomYeah, um and and is this where Sinon gives Odysseus the the lot? Or is he?
JoeOh, I guess so, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or did he have the lot the whole time?
JenOr did he give it to him on the beach?
TomNo, he gives it to him on the beach, yeah, and he goes back and then he goes, He could Sinan says, Do you still have it? And he does.
JenYes, yes, yes. He's like, give that to Antinuous.
TomGive it to Antinuous, yeah.
JenYeah. Now uh this is a question I have. He tells Sinon, we're gonna leave and you stay here.
TomYeah, you someone has to.
JenSo who leaves? Do they send like one guy with each ship to like take the ships away?
TomEverybody's everybody's on the ship. Like there's a huge army.
JenSo they all Oh, they leave and then they're waiting outside the gates. That's what it is. Okay. So they leave and come back?
TomYeah, they sell somewhere else on the island.
JenYeah. Alright. Okay.
JoeSo, okay, so then we get the scene with we just talked about with the whirlpool and the silva.
TomThe sylla was before that is the sirens. Where do we get more? So sirens. Yeah, but actually, before that.
JoeIs it sirens before that or after?
TomSirens and then Selencharybdis. I uh and then but before that is um is Telemachus and Menelaus. I think that we go there.
JoeOkay, yeah. So, all right, so uh Telemachus goes to Sparta to talk to Menelaus to find out if he has any word of Odysseus, his father Odysseus. Menelaus is played by John Bernthal. Uh, we meet we meet John Bernthal and uh Lupita, who plays Helen, and John Bernthal plays his uh his diction and accent are very like noticeably out of out of place in this.
JenWell, everyone's doing an American accent.
JoeWell, I yeah, and I I forgot to mention this because this is some one thing I immediately loved when we saw this movie. I was like, oh good. They're all speaking in their normal accents. We're not putting on British accents for this movie. Thank God.
TomThe British people are speaking in American accents too. Because Holland and Pattinson are speaking in American accents.
JoeAnd also uh Hamesh Patel is also, I believe, speaking in American account.
JenIs Lapina's speaking? Is she is she was she in with an American accent? I don't remember. I don't remember either.
JoeI I don't remember, yeah. I don't, but like nobody's really putting on accents too much. Like you said, Intinuous is um and Tom Holland is yeah. But I was so happy about that.
TomYeah, most of I I I really only have seen Tom Holland play Americans in movies.
JoeI don't yeah, I don't know if I've ever seen him do uh I mean I haven't seen a lot of Tom Holland um movies, but yeah, so that the impossible uh this might might this might be the only Tom Holland movie I've seen, to be honest with you.
TomSpider-Man? I didn't see those Spider-Man. You saw Infinity War.
JoeI might have seen part of Infinity War on the plane, yeah. Um I don't remember him being able to.
JenHe's also doing an American accent in that though.
JoeOh, so then well, yeah. Anyway, I love that. I love that they're not doing British accents because they're Greeks, they shouldn't be doing British accents anyway. Right. So let's just give them American accents. Anyway, um John Bernthal's have got a very American accent, though.
TomYeah.
JoeAnd we meet uh Helen, his wife Helen, who he's scarred her face.
TomYeah, half her face. She's two-faced now.
JenThat's a great line that he says, though. And he's like, oh, it's a face that launched a thousand chips. I guess only 500 now.
JoeThat's true.
JenTheir face is all screwed up one side.
JoeUh which is I was not expecting that. That's definitely not in the book.
TomAnd then you find out that uh her twin sister is married to Clytemnestra. Clytemnestra, yeah, is married to uh Agamemnon.
JoeAnd that's how Agamemnon dies. Right. Because he sacrifices their daughter Which you find out early in the film, right? Which you find yeah, you find out early in the film that he sacrifices his daughter to gain favorable winds to sail to Troy.
TomRight. And the entire time his wife has been stewing about this.
JenIsn't in the poem doesn't his son and his wife get together?
TomHis son, it's the same thing. His wife gets together with somebody else, they kill him, and then his son kills his mother and his mother's lover, and he's cursed. And then eventually the gods take away his curse. He's cursed for killing his mother.
JoeYeah, that was a that was a pretty cool scene, too, that we saw the death like her kill him because it's like he comes home for more and she's like, Oh hey, and like they're in bed, and she just climbs in and just fucking stabs him in the throat.
TomYeah, that's uh that's the only time we see his face is right before the knife goes in.
JoeYeah, um, so we learn what happened to Agamemnon at this point. Menelaus says that. Um I'm trying to think of what else he I can't remember too much of the conversation between them.
TomIt's basically saying, like, I think he's basically saying one, he's warning him too, about like you've got to get this shit together because these guys from the sea are coming. And like they're gonna take over the sea folk are coming. He's like, I bet he's basically telling him, like, look, I know you don't want it, but it sounds like you gotta kill these people or take the kingship for yourself. Right? You're oh yeah, he's encouraging him to become a king. Your dad's not coming back, you should take the king. Yeah, and then like he also says you gotta get back.
JoeLike you you you like left those people there, like right.
TomThat's what he's saying. He's like, that's what they're coming. You've gotta get Ithaca right. And so he comes back with a plan, and this is a little bit later on, but I want to because I don't in my reading of my reading uh of people's opinions on this, I don't think people get this. Like, well, I don't know, we'll talk about it more later. Because it it's but like Penelope gets very upset about how he is when he comes back, yes, and she doesn't know that he's acting a certain way on purpose in order to in order to facilitate the end game of the of the film. Right? He's acting very much like the prince, and like she gets very upset about it, but like that's an intentional choice on his part.
JoeAnyway, all right, so yeah, yeah, he's trying to convince her like maybe it's time to just pick one. Right. Um and he right he says something like oh, he said, I can't remember what he says. He says, I can and then I'll be king, like pick somebody. Um, and then I can become king when I'm ready, or whatever, and you know, right, and she's not happy with this.
TomYeah, this is this is her I well out of the supporting actress scene.
JoeYes, and she yells, I want Odysseus or something like that. Right, yeah. She yells at him, yeah.
TomAnd they also close like a brief, like I I I I appreciate it, but it's also such a throwaway line where she's like, I know enough to be but I to rule, but I'm a woman and I can't, like something to that effect. I'm like, yes, okay, but yeah, all right, we get it, but like that's not Yeah, she's like, I've been the queen here, I've been the one holding the fort down, why can't I rule?
JoeBasically, like, why can't I rule? But it's like it seems to come out of left field a bit.
TomIt does, and it's completely unexplored for the before or after that that line. So I I understand why you want to say it, but like it's also if you don't have the time to to to have that be a theme, you don't need to throw that in.
JoeYeah, I agree. It it just yeah, it's kind of put in there and that's it, like out of nowhere, and then it never goes anywhere.
TomYeah. Um she ends the scene by saying, I want Odysseus.
JoeYeah, she yells at him, and that's the end of the scene. Um but is this before or after he meets the Odysseus? This is doesn't he meet Odysseus when he gets back to Ithaca, but before Telemachus gets home?
TomBut he doesn't know that's the he doesn't know Odysseus is until the very end.
JoeBut yes, his plan Well, not to the very end, but I think with the dog, right? When they're in there, when he comes back with the dog at the end of the movie.
TomIt's I mean, you know, about a half hour left, I think. It takes a long time, but there's nothing else. So like, yes, he comes back and meets Odysseus on this is should be wrong, but he comes back and he meets Odyssey at the temple, and like he and Odysseus have this plan. And the plan is to bring all the suitors together and really antagonize them, and then they're gonna take care of business.
JoeYeah, he says Odysseus is coming, right? It's coming, so you need to get ready, like you need to get this ready. This is what we're gonna do.
TomRight, and like get them all in, and then we're gonna now you can't leave them, and then yeah, but whatever. But first, let's go back, right, um, to uh right, I think the sirens. I wanna I wanna that that's another scene where you know you never you don't hear what they see, you don't even really see them.
JoeWell, they're just blurry figures on the rocks. Yeah, you don't see them at all. And then uh and you don't you don't hear them at all either.
TomNo. You hear you see Odysseus's.
JoeIt gets very muffled, like I it like Nolan Nolan chooses to do like all of the the the sailors put the wax in their ears, and that's what you hear, uh we hear. Yeah, right. You get it from uh it's like he put wax in the camera ears. Yeah, you get it from Hemish Patel's point of view.
TomThe the whole scene's from his audio point of view. So like when he puts his wax in, that's when the sound cuts out. You see Odysseus's reaction. Uh so this is a change. Which was really good.
JoeI mean, Matt Damon did really good in that scene because I wonder how long he had to do that for before, like, you know, like like was he able to get that right away, or it took a few tries, or he was like doing that for like 10 minutes and they just piece together.
TomBe more anguished.
JoeUm one of the sailors just like can't can't he needs to hear what it sounds like.
TomImmediately jumps off the boat. So in the book, it's someone has to be able to it doesn't make any sense, right? Because it's like someone has to be able to hear to to to to call out the the beat so that we continue to row.
JoeRight? Yes, yes. It's very weird. They don't really give a good reason in the movie.
TomWell, like how it like thinking what are they just looking at your mouth, they can't hear you call out the beat. They can't hear to be said. So this is just like eh, we're gonna see what happens, right?
JoeIt's yeah, he just says I have to. Does that mean he has to do that though? Does he? I don't I think he I think Tiresias tells him he has to Oh okay.
TomI miss that. I miss that if that's the case.
JoeI I think that's the reason in the in the movie.
TomIt just seems like he's like, I want to know.
JoeUm Yeah, he's like, no, you gotta strap me up to the post and I'll I'll not have yeah.
TomAnd it's uh he says it doesn't make sense.
JoeYou're right. When he talks about what he heard, it's like uh it's like you lost something, you had something, then you lost it, and oh god, what is it?
TomUh this is like we wish I had my notebook out during the thing.
JoeYeah. We're just it's just like we're just typing to try to see if we can find it.
TomIt told you that what you want is what you can't have. That's what I know. It's like what you once had, it's like something you had, right? Uh this board thing. I gotta get the whole quote.
JoeUh uh he mentions a delicious itch you don't want to scratch, and then the song of all promises I failed to keep all the things you want it to be, all the things you wish you never wished for. Um, and then what what you most want is what you most can have, and what you most can have is what you already had and lost. Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, it's a lot of really deep shit that he said. It's not just like one line, he just like goes on a little thing, like all of this stuff is very deep, and like you want to pause and let it breathe, like each one of those lines breathe for a minute.
TomAnd like this is where like they're kind of hanging a lampshade on like what the eventual like reveal of the twist of the story is without without doing so. Where it's like over the course of the film at multiple points, people, including Athena, like ask Odysseus, why don't you just go home? And you're like, Well he can't go, he's trying to go home. And like this is where like in retrospect you realize he doesn't want to go home because he's afraid of facing who he is and what he's done. And like that's what he's saying. Like he's hearing he's hearing home. He's hearing like the sea the s and he realizes like he's lost that. He's lost that chance to well.
JoeI assume it's like what he lost was you know his again, his regrets about what he did at Troy. So like he it's like he wants he wants to go back uh to before that happened and make a different choice.
TomYeah.
JoeI mean, this is this is a looming thing throughout the movie. He's like there's a lot of guilt and regret for what he did at Troy, which is not really in the book at all.
JenNo, no, it's completely that's like a hero for doing that. Yeah, yeah, it's the story at the beginning.
JoeIt works in this movie, though. Like it's a really interesting take and exploration of that, but it's not at all something in the book. These not there's no regrets for what he did at Troy. There's no like doing that, like broke like the codes of civilization.
TomAnd no, that's yeah.
JenThat's like, hey, we can we can't get in here. What are we gonna do?
JoeRight.
JenIt's an idea.
JoeWell, and and then also like the notion that like the whole Trojan War was started because of Helen. I think Helen was an excuse. Yes, and and that's like a Memnon wanted Troy because it was such like a wealthy trade city, yeah. Right. Which is really why he wanted it.
JenNot so he won it and then he went home and got killed. So who's got it like who's in charge of Troy now?
JoeNo, it's just well, Troy's, I think, has been destroyed. It's it's gone. I think now, I guess the idea is that now all that trade will go through Sparta? I don't know. Oh, all right.
TomWell, yeah, it'll go through somewhere in Greece. Yeah. Right. Troy's in uh Turkey. Um, I think I mean it's essentially Greek, though.
JoeI mean, that's all Greek races are Greek.
TomJust Greek thinking at a map. Yeah, it's all Greek, right? Everyone's Greek. To me.
JoeYeah. Um the Which it's not Troy, isn't it like ri like the real that mean it's Ilian? Is that the name of the city? Ilium. Ilium. Not Ilion's the Lord of the Rings, yeah. But I knew it was close to that, Ilium, which is why it's called the Iliad. Yeah.
TomUm I was gonna say the the I don't know how it became Troy, though.
JoeI don't know where that anglicized, I guess.
TomI don't know. Somehow.
JoeIlium, Troy. I got it.
TomYeah, we're I don't speak Greek or Latin, so I I I have no I took Latin in high school.
JoeI don't really remember much of it. We just read uh Dr. Seuss books.
TomOh, that's cool.
JoeAnd translated them from Latin to English or vice versa. I don't remember. Anyway, uh you were saying, Tom.
TomI was saying that while this is all mythology, there is a generally understood belief amongst historians, ancient historians, that there was at one point a Trojan war of some kind between uh city-states in Greece and the city-state of Troy, and that it was likely not because of the kidnapping of a princess or a queen or anything like that, but because of of trade. And so like taking that understood reality of the basis of the myth of the Trojan War and weaving that into this story as the real reason why the Trojan War happened is something that I appreciated.
JoeYeah, I mean like Helen is supposed to be born of like uh it's like a swan. Right? Who's a swan? And they fuck the swan and Zeus.
TomZeus disguises himself as a swan. And he rapes. Oh, yeah. Oh, rapes. That happens a lot. A lot of people, Zeus is an animal.
JoeI think she actually lays eggs and one of them is Helen.
JenBut she has a twin sister in this.
JoeYeah, that's not awful. So like she's also Nestra is in the store, but she's not a twin sister, right? So they just made it. Maybe they couldn't they couldn't find another actress to play.
JenThey were like, let's just let's just wanted to give her something else. Yeah, I don't know.
JoeI wanted to show her without the scarred face. Um anyway, is it at this point that we get the full flashback of what happens in Troy with the horse and everything?
TomNo. Or is it the end?
JenScyla and Charybdis.
TomNo, you get that, you don't get that until he's in he's in uh Ithaca. Ithaca, yeah. So well he's in Ithaca. I mean, at this point, right, the next thing that happens is we go back to Calypso and Calypso, and then he finally he puts she tells him, like, you have to surrender the sea and not try and fight your fate and not try and fight the gods. And he just gets on a raft. Yeah.
JoeYeah, he uh Tom Hanks is it.
TomYeah.
JenUm and then he ends up in the temple, right?
JoeWell, he ends up in Ithaca and and he washes up on shore of Ithaca. And he goes back home. I think there's a conversation with Athena in between here. So Athena's like Athena's like, you don't recognize your own home.
TomAnd then he goes back to his home. He disguised himself as a beggar and he talks to John Laguzamo. John Lagosambo, who says who had just found out like that they were going to murder Telemachus.
JenOh yeah, they attacked him at his house.
TomAnd they kill they killed uh all the an all of the guard dogs and and the his one oh he only has like one helper left. Guys brothers. And so he helps heal John Leguzamo, and then he he rushes off to to beat the you know to to to beat Telemachus to the temple. She does.
JoeYes. We got the scene at the temple where Antinous' men attack, mentor gets killed, Ryan Hearst gets killed.
TomYeah, they poison uh they poison everybody in Telemachus' party, and then Telemachus and Odysseus murder them all. Mostly Odysseus. But Telemachus helps.
JoeUm then they burn the temple to the ground. Then they burn the temple to the ground to cover their retreat.
TomWell, there's more of his men there, too. And so, yeah, it is to cover their retreat, yeah. And then they this is when they come up with the plan of like, hey, look, this is what we're gonna do. Odysseus is gonna come back, but this is how we're gonna prepare for it.
JoeYou need to go back. Yeah, you need to go back home and you know, talk to your mother and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, then he's gonna be. Odysseus goes goes there. I think then we get the scene with the dog. He sees the dog and sees the dog and it dies.
JenThe dog sees him, recognizes him and then he dies.
TomThat's when Od That's when Telemachus realizes who he is.
JoeYes. Well, Eumaeus learns right before Telemachus.
JenNo, Eumaeus still doesn't know. He doesn't know.
TomNobody else knows until the bow is plucked.
JenYeah, he says, um, bury him on the hill, and Telemachus is like, oh, where you first met with a dog.
JoeYes, yes.
JenWhen your father comes back, he'll be very proud of it. He's still like not admitting it, even though they both know.
JoeYeah. This is very this is very Greek, like characters playing, you know, pretending they're other people. This is like very old school stuff.
JenThey obviously made Eumaeus blind so that he didn't recognize Odysseus when he came back. I think that's like the reason that they made him blind because he's not blind in the book.
JoeNo, he's not blind.
JenI think it was just that like they're not.
JoeAthena makes him look different in the books, right? She makes him look like an old man.
JenAnd they didn't want to do that to Matt Damon. So they just covered him with a lot of things.
TomIt's not like Matt Damon looks young here. He's a big thing.
JenNo, but I think like they were so super close that he definitely would have rec I think he definitely would have recognized him. So they were probably just like, no, he's blind.
TomRight.
JenOkay.
TomYeah.
JenIt just makes it easier.
JoeYeah. I think it makes it it makes it a little bit more of like a sympathetic not that he needs to be more sympathetic, but it looks like you know, these suitors are being a jerk to this nice blind guy.
TomYeah.
JoeUm and then you got the, you know, he can't do his you're you're so damn you're too damn loud or something, or to with uh Logan Marshall Green's character. Uh yeah. So then there's the scene with Odysseus and Penelope, right? Well, he comes in the room, right, and they're all all of the suitors are being assholes to him, especially Antinous.
TomYeah, and and and Polebus too. Like he throws throws his food, throws the food that he's already gotten from begging on the floor. Yeah.
JenWhen does he give uh Antinous the lot? Is it during this part?
TomYes. And Antinuus is beating Yeah, I think so.
JenWhen he's begging to all the table.
TomYeah, uh he says, like I but he he knew Sedan, Sedan had something for you. Right. And then Antinous was beating him up, and then that's when then Telemachus yells. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JoeTells him all the party's over, get out, and that's when he says something like if they mention something about what his mother wants to do, and he says, My mother wants you all to burn. He says something like that, something to that effect.
TomAnd then she and I think they announce like that they're she's gonna pick a suitor the next day, or come back.
JoeIs that after the scene with her and though?
TomAnd and Yes, it is because so yeah, they so they leave and then uh and uh Intinuus and Polebus say, like, we're gonna have to kill him tonight because he's gonna declare himself a king. And we we can't let this happen. So they sneak in while um while Odysseus is getting first he's getting his feet washed by the lady who realizes she's the next person to realize. Yeah.
JoeBecause she sees the scar on his scar.
TomAnd then uh he gives the shh sign and knocks up the water and tells her he wants some more water. And then right, you it's established earlier on that anybody who comes in any beggar who comes in or anybody who comes in exclaiming to know anything about it, like she likes to speak to him. He then reveals, I've got the pin, I've got this, da-da-da. And this is when you find out what happens, because this is his confession where you find out what really happened after the the Trojan horse went inside Troy.
JoeOkay, yeah. And he does, you know, he does this whole thing like Odysseus thinks this, and Odysseus would say that, and he feels this way, and it's like, you know, she doesn't know she does still doesn't know at this point that it's him, right?
JenI think she knows when she says what the what the contest is gonna be. Yeah, I think she doesn't really know, but she wants to be able to do that. If this isn't him, like then we're done here. And like I'll just marry somebody else. Like, yeah. She's like, I don't believe that if it's either this is him or he's not coming back.
TomRight.
JenSo I think she's like, let's just, I'm gonna put it out there and then we'll just have to see.
JoeAnd uh uh oh, I don't know.
JenEven though she turns around when he strums the bow, like that's like the final. It seems like she m didn't know until that moment, but I think that she gets up and she's like, Alright, this is what we're gonna do. Like, you're gonna pretend that you're not him, and I'm not 100% sure, but this is how I'm gonna find out.
TomYeah. I think at this point she like she doesn't know that it's him, but she wants to believe that it's him.
JenYeah.
TomAnd so she sets this up to like. Um Huh. But yeah, uh I don't know. Or it could, I mean, uh you could say, like, she's like, you know what, fuck it. Unless any of these people can do what Odysseus would do.
JenYeah, I feel like why all of a sudden would she mar decide to decide to marry someone else?
JoeOh the burning? Oh, what did I do? Go ahead, sorry, Jane. Go ahead.
JenIt's okay. I'm just saying I don't I don't think she would just be like, choose this moment to do this thing. Decide to marry someone else. When this guy's like, Odysseus is coming, if she was like, Oh great. Like I just have to hang on a little longer. I think she was just like, No, like this is this is either him or or it's not gonna happen.
JoeI'm sorry, I found this picture of Matt Damon wailing when he was with the scene with the sirens, and I just had to put this up here. So no problem.
TomIt's fine. I have I have uh I have this picture uh saved on my phone just that Matt Damon's wearing a Mets hat. I I immediately saw that the afternoon we came back to the phone. It's this picture, but I guess a Mets hat on. It's like so indicative of being a Mets fan. I love it. Um so um it's the picture for those of you who are only listening to our podcast. Uh it is a picture of him listening to the siren song in in in complete and total anguish. Uh yeah, again, now uh we've teased this, we've talked about spits of this earlier on in the pod, but uh, or maybe even last episode, but um this is where you find out like obviously it works, right? The treasure horse works, we all know that. They they they sack Troy. But like you see the Greek uh forces come in and rape and murder and burn and destroy the whole the whole You don't see them rape anybody, but you see them take a woman and bowl her up against the wall. Like you don't see I think I missed it. Yeah, you don't see like you don't see the rape.
JoeThis wasn't this wasn't this wasn't Alexander with uh with uh what's his name? Val Kilmer just sodomizing a person.
TomNo, it is not. Uh but yeah, and and this is where you get the point where you alluded to earlier, right? Where like you see a bunch of the soldiers take a woman of Troy and cut her head off, as other soldiers.
JoeYeah, I still I'm still not sure about that.
TomWell, it's a land of apparent magic, Joe, so it's tough to tell exactly what's happening here.
JenIt's it's up to interpretation. Right.
JoeYeah, but um investigate that some more, but um it's whatever. I don't like maybe because I don't like that.
JenI but that they just behead a woman, you don't like that?
JoeI don't like that his vision of Athena then is a real is uh is that of a real person that he I think Athena is I like I I like the fact that Athena chose that for him.
TomYeah.
JoeOkay, that I don't mind as much as to torture him, yeah.
TomThat's or or to say like you could go home whenever you want to, but you're running away from your guilt. I'm the goddess of wisdom, I'm showing you your guilt. You have to face this to go home, right?
JoeUm and uh, you know, was it was I the only person that was like, it's taking them a really long time to get those doors open. It was very slow. Well, I mean it's so slow. They're not supposed to open. No, but you should there's like a bunch of men trying to open it, and it was like they could barely turn the thing, and I'm like, uh I liked it.
JenI mean, it felt real about how slow it was. Felt real to me. Like the whole thing, you know.
TomIt wasn't easy. It wasn't like an easy.
JoeIt wasn't easy. Um, and then the doors open and it's just Agamemnon's just standing there in the dark, just black.
JenI'd like to see the other side of the wall.
JoeWell, they show a shot of like up on the right, like uh is Odysseus up on the wall and he's looking down and he throws the torches, right? Because that's a new signal.
JenYeah, it's like a half an hour of Agamemnon just like that's what Agamemnon's Agamemnon waits for the torch to drop.
TomIt's like all right, out of the way, out of the way, out of the way, out of the way. Let me go first. I want to go in first.
JenYou guys run past me, but don't go in front of me. Well, I I think I'm remembering out from me.
JoeAnd I don't know if this is the way I'd like to remember it, but I could swear it's dark, and he throws the torch down, and the torch basically lights up all the Greek soldiers who are down there waiting, right?
TomRight, that's what I'm saying. Like Angamemnon's in the back, like with a with a newspaper, and then when he sees the torch, he's like, All right, I'm in the front, in the front, I'm in the front and away.
JoeWhich is a really cool scene, just because like again, it's dark and he throws the torch and then it lights like everything. Yeah, you just see like there's all the Greek soldiers are waiting out there, yeah. Which is really cool. And then they come in, yes, and they just start destroying everything, and and this is like a this is like the end of civilization as we know it, basically. It's the starting of a new age. This is like the cataclysmic event that starts a new age or something. Right.
TomHe says uh afterwards that I think broken all the laws of the gods. He says this is the end of the Bronze Age, which I'm like, I don't know if they called it the Bronze Age when they were in it, but that's okay. But like yes, it it it was uh the destruction of Troy was the destruction of civilization as as they knew it, and it was the end of civility, it was the end of of well, there was a dark age in in in history after this, right?
JoeIsn't there like a an earlier there's a dark age, I think, that happens.
TomI don't know. The Bronze Age ends, I think, somewhere around what 1800 or 1300 BC or something like that. I don't know.
JoeI think that yeah, I'm pretty sure there's an actual, like not the dark age, like the one after the Middle Ages and all that stuff, after the uh Roman Empire and all that. Um, but there's a dark age, I think, that happens here in history around this time.
TomSo I guess they're saying this is the the the reason for that.
JoeWhich are the the well it it the people of the sea, right? Again, but he right monsters all along.
TomIt was us, like we are the ones who are the ball lickers.
JoeUm we are the ones who are the ball liquers. I would love it if Jay was in this uh uh Jay was like a bad man.
JenYeah, like right.
JoeSo he's just arguing, he's just arguing with uh with Hector. You are the ones who are the ball lickers. Um Hector's dead already. Um well, you know what they also cut well, I'm sorry, going back to the hate the uh underworld scene, they cut out, right? Isn't Achilles there and also uh Ajax?
JenAjax? There's no Achilles in this movie, it's just and his mother's there too.
JoeHe has like a he has a deep conversation with his mother. Unimportant Yeah, I guess so.
TomThis movie's not about Odysseus is a hero. It's about Odysseus uh I don't know, is a tragic figure. Is a tragic figure and he's trying to deal with that, right? It's the Odyssey was not a his geographic trip, it was his emotional trip.
JoeUh and his uh his lotus trip.
TomRight, so he he says that he he he finally confesses and and I think takes a a like comes to a peace with it with himself in that moment and is now able to do what he needs to do, which is murder a bunch of uh people.
JoeYeah, right. She sets up his wife sets up the uh the the trick.
TomRight, and so like to to your earlier point, right? So he does this thing, and that's when she comes out and says, I'm gonna pick my suitor in the morning, and that's why Intinuous and Polymus don't kill Telemachus, they leave when she comes out.
JoeYes, yes, right. Because she makes the decision that she's gonna pick somebody. So he's like, fine, he's like, Finally, it's gotta be me. Like, who who else is she gonna be? Well, she says there's gonna be a trial. She doesn't say she's gonna pick, right? Right, doesn't she say there's gonna there'll be a trial?
TomNo, I think she says like I think oh maybe like it'll be a trial for my suitor, right? I think it's time like something like that.
JoeSo it's not like I'm just gonna pick somebody, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna propose a challenge, and whoever you know wins the challenge. This is like you know, a lot uh this is this is the first the first reality competition show right here.
JenThat's it, yes.
JoeSo this is like this is before Doubledare with the physical challenge.
TomVery nice, yeah.
JoeYeah. Um and it's the trick that Odysseus does earlier in the uh in the movie with the with the bow. He strings the bow and shoots the arrow between the 12 axes and hits the target. Um yeah. So that's so so this is what happens, right? They lock, they hide all the weapons, right? Telemachus says we gotta get rid of all the weapons, hide them, lock them up, so they can't get them. Um they lock the doors on the suitors, and Penelope says, This is what you need to do. Whoever can do this, I'll I'll marry. Uh, as we know, like already that Odysseus is the only person who's ever been able to string that bow. So we don't we don't even think anybody's even gonna get that far.
TomAnd nobody does, right? Nobody can even string it.
JenAnd then eventually keep trying to let's loosen it up, let's do this, let's do that.
JoeWell, yeah, and Tinous is like we should oil it and you know, like, you know, whatever is heat it up and all. that stuff. Um he refuses to do it because he knows he can't do it. He's like uh he's like I'm not playing this game. This is ridiculous. Um and that's right that's yeah that's when Odysseus is like let me let me give it a try.
TomCan somebody please get rid of these biggers? Right? That's uh his last really uh whiny bit.
JoeOh no there's some more coming up during the fight.
TomIt's not as maybe not as whiny but he's very cowardly the entire fight.
JoeOh yeah it's it's it's great. Odysseus you know tries to string the bow. Well he's really feeling it out I think he's kind of like you know like you know it's his old bow. He hasn't strung this thing in 20 years. So he's feeling it out and then he does like all of a sudden you just see him like flip the bow around and he's like and he strings it and then he plucks it.
TomHe does continuous runs then.
JoeAnd it brings that and then polybus goes right is the polybus goes Odysseus fleeing the arrow right to his throat.
JenWell that's after he does the after when he shoots the arrow hits the table.
JoeHe does it and that's when he goes Odysseus just shoots him right in the throat. Which in in the book it's a tinoist I think and he shoots a tinoist right through the throat. He's the first one to die. And then Odysseus just starts firing bows at like firing arrows at everybody um killing them and you know beats you know swinging his bow and if they're fighting with improvised weapons.
JenOdysseus apart many people but it's not as graphic as in the poem I feel like what it'd be like he shoots somebody they fall their forehead smashes on the ground there's blood everywhere. I'm like oh my god like what the hell so it was actually less graphic seeing it than the description.
TomYeah very gory um a couple of things here I didn't particularly like in this final bit say right now Odysseus kills let's say like 20 guys because a bunch of the suitors and it happens as the course of the battle goes on it's not all at once a bunch of the suitors just kneel immediately okay you're back right and eventually like he kills enough people that everybody else gives up but like while he's killing like 20 people Telemachus is having a really hard time killing one guy. And like Telemachus is supposed to part of the story of the Odyssey is the story of Telemachus becoming a man and becoming the next king. Right? And like I understand like you don't necessarily have to be as great a uh a hero as Odysseus but like this movie was set up to in my mind that Telemachus should have killed Intinuus and like well I mean it it's definitely different in the fact that he becomes the king at the end of this like that doesn't happen in the in the in the book.
JoeYeah but um I like that he's fighting he goes up right so Logan Marshall Green runs and he's going to try to get the weapons and then Telemachus goes after him and um they start fighting.
TomRight.
JoeAnd it's it's like uh yeah Telemachus is having a really hard time fighting this guy he should have been able to kill him much quicker but but we do get this right so Logan Marshall Green just smashes through the floor because this this room is above the hall and then he's throwing weapons and shields down and then we get that great scene where um Robert Patton's like spears give us like throws down some spears and he's like kind of giving orders for the other suitors to like do stuff while he's like hiding behind a pillar. But yeah it's a it's a it's a tough battle for Telemachus and Logan Marshall Green um but he does kill him eventually he drops him through the hole too right yeah I think he goes down through the hole. I mean Odysseus does take some pretty he's got some th some things sticking out of him and for a second I thought they were gonna kill him.
JenMe too are they gonna kill Odysseus that's a big change.
JoeIt's and and Penelope obviously thinks he's gonna die too and he's like oh no this is like it's he's basically like this is just a flesh wound. I'm not dead like I'm not dying.
TomI'm okay and then um and then they uh sail off yeah what what and what right what at one point in the movie is um is a non-option for Telemachus to take like if we if I kill these people I will be exiled and like so this is like well I'll kill him and I'll be exiled and then I can just go and yeah that's like the getting around the this is yeah this is the whole Zeus's law thing.
JoeYeah I I don't care I'll be exiled me your mom wants to we talked about sailing away off into the sunset years ago.
JenI just can't believe that he would ever get on a boat again. Well he he he like after all that it's like the most calm beautiful I'm like what the hell I know he that was okay with Poseidon.
TomAnd well he also made a promise that he would go back and specifically I can't remember who, but he had to honor somebody's dead body.
JenOh all the people that he left behind.
JoeYes we have to go to a certain place in the West and and I'll I get it but I'm also just like what are don't you have PGSD from all from that boat for me if I'm Penelope I'm like oh we're gonna we're gonna retire together uh on the ocean chasing the the sun he's like actually I still have work to do yeah yeah I know I'm back but I'm I got more work I'm not interested in sailing anywhere longer than I have to I'm good I want to be on the style and this is a this is another departure from the books right in the in the books he he's they have sex I think basically after this ends and then he goes and sees his dad. Yeah and then well then he has to like apologize like all the dads of the suitors come to like confront him and then I think Athena's like no no we're not doing this no we forgot that's kind of how it ends we forgot he has his house his men like Ithacan men the people who are still in Ithaca uh hang all of the the female servants or most of the female servants well the ones that were like sleeping with the suitors like Melanto yeah they cut that part out too yeah but well I mean they string them all up like on a like a line got tries to leave and pedapoli's like you belong down there with them. Yeah yes but she but she doesn't get killed no I don't think so either but yeah I think it just kind of ends with like and like Zeus thunders and it's like oh everyone's happy now it's good don't worry about it no more fighting so she's also so Miya Goth's character is supposed to be the sister of Logan Marshall Green's character. Oh I did not know that she's melantho and he's melanthius and I think they're supposed to be brother and sister.
TomThey look so much alike yeah that's not even like that's not even like uh in any way addressed in the film no it's not but they are supposed to be brother and sister but um yeah so that's and that and that's the end of the Odyssey yeah we did it made it all the way to the end of the Odyssey we made it to the end made it back to Ithaca yeah man we can you can I I'm just looking at this right now we can make this three parts this long this is a long episode no no it'll be it'll be good.
JoeUh do you guys want to hear uh Homer's reaction to this movie yeah no there is none because he's dead you know what there is none because he doesn't exist how about that I literally thought you were gonna go no and it's just like do a Homer Simpson quote I thought I thought I thought you had that queued up no I didn't have anything from Homer sorry no Simpson stuff okay uh so what what do we got here? Uh this movie so far has made a lot of money sorry yeah a ton of money I think the opening weekend was 264 million it had already exceeded the budget in the first weekend amazing uh which is quite which is quite the feat critical reception uh I I think I've everything I've seen is pretty positive yeah uh most of the negging is about like casting choices and historical accuracy I think it's mixed I don't fixed I don't know if any legitimate critic has had any legitimate issues with the casting no and I think most of the people who've had problems with it haven't even seen the movie I don't think so yeah no I've I've I've gotten a lot I've seen a lot of negativity obviously it's not translating to box office but um with like historical stuff yeah I've seen like it's not it's there's no like missing the point of the poem which I I don't I don't know. I mean I don't know what the point of the poem is to be honest with you.
JenYeah I mean I'm not a Greek mythology historian so this is I mean I would say those two words go together.
TomWhatever mythological historian um this is I would say I think it's clearly clearly not like this is not what the poem is about right there's no the poem is not a meditation on on a man reckoning with with his choices and how you know this is this is a companion piece to to to Oppenheimer about it's the same thing it's a story about a guy who made a decision to end a war and has to reckon with the consequences of that action and it's like a meditation on on guilt and grief. And like the poem is not about that. The poem is a meditation on on hubris right Odysseus thinks he's better than the gods and then he pays the price and all of his men do too.
JoeYeah I think he doesn't I mean and in this movie he does like kind of shun the gods a bit like there's a conversation you kind of get the sense that in the movie Odysseus doesn't believe in the gods like he he's like a an atheist almost or an agnostic or whatever.
TomYeah or at least doesn't believe that they actually do anything for people you know yeah yeah maybe it's just more like he's lost faith.
JoeBut I but I will say like the the theme again we talked about the the the theme of uh uh what's it called you know they call it Zeus's law in the movie but in the book it's just hospitality right that's something that's also yeah Zeus sorry the hospitality code governed by I'm saying Zeus but that's Zeus Xenia Xenia Xenia yeah yeah um and then I mean there is there is some psychological trauma of war in the in the book yeah right it does I mean there's the stuff with the stuff with what's her name with calypso is fairly similar in the book where like he's literally forgetting all of that right he's taking drugs to to to dumb the pain self-medicating yeah yeah um and I guess like the you know the extreme isolation the how the trauma of like that extreme isolation and whatnot so so there's some stuff that's the same but yes Nolan heavily leans into kind of some other non-existent themes in the in the book but it works oh it does he makes it work which is the magical thing about this is he makes it work he does and I'm just realizing now we forgot one whole section it's very small we've got a whole one whole section of the film where they go to Apollo's island and they're not allowed to eat the cattle and then they do and he's like do you think if you were quiet Apollo wouldn't notice yeah that is that another thing Tiresias tells him yeah don't let them eat and that's why he doesn't want to land yeah yes they're like we have to and he's like all right just don't eat the cows well he's like I'd rather starve than drown right or or I'd rather drown than starve.
TomYeah that's what he that's what he tells him. Yeah right when he would when they finally do eat it. Like he tells them flat out he's like look they do I got told you will die if you eat these cattle.
JoeYes and then they and they're like oh well we'll just you know we'll go they they don't even see the cattle I think at that point yet right no they're right on the beach they're just on the beach and then Odysseus doesn't even want to stop right because of that right because of that they can't go back into the like the wind won't be as soon as they land the wind dies.
JenRight and then as soon as they eat the cow the wind picks up yeah yes and then they all die on the boat. Yeah and that's when he that's when he shipwrecks on fair that's when he shipwrecks on Calypso's island right it's the last thing I mean the gods did it they were like oh you can't leave oh you can't leave for and and then they eat the cow oh let's go okay now you can leave you know they kept they trapped them there until they had to eat the cow you know well yeah I mean that's Teresius says if you go to that island you're all your men are gonna die. Well I mean Cersei told him too like they're they're all dying.
JoeRight.
TomYes it's this is happening you can't you can't he's trying to tell him like you guys are gonna die if we go here and right well and and what she's saying and what they do is the same thing they cannot control their impulses. They are not able like they're gonna take the easy choice eventually and that's gonna kill them.
JoeAlright sorry yeah we did forget that whole thing and I'm just trying to I'm sorry I saw something in chat here in Discord and I'm just flabbergasted.
JenTroy is better than 300 which is better than the Odyssey oh I was reading it the other way around yeah I would the other way around I think I've never seen 300 but I definitely think this was better than Troy even though I like Troy a lot but as I don't know. We don't have to discuss these though right now at the No we won't discuss them.
JoeLet's discuss our uh our ratings up for this movie. Does anyone want to go first?
JenWhat do we I don't even remember how we rated out of five right five stars I was about to give it an eight um I'll give it a I'm gonna give it a 3.75 I liked it a lot and think it was the greatest movie I ever saw. But I but I did enjoy it. I think it was a definitely a good movie and there were a lot of good performances in it.
JoeYou like the prestige better than this though.
TomI I don't even remember what I rated the prestige but yeah I really Okay no I'm just you did rate the prestige more higher than this so that's why I missed that's why I was kind of trying to are you cal are you writing down because I Yeah yeah it's it's on the list of all the adaptations that we have oh okay um yeah no I could I I yeah I would say I like the prestige more okay you which is accurate because that's what you did rate it's okay good uh Tom you want to go or you want me to go uh I'm gonna I'll go sorry Tom I'll let you go last I'm gonna give it a 4.5 oh wow um I have a feeling after watching this I if I watch this movie another one or two times I might raise it potentially wow good I like that but I really I like this movie like I said it's there's a lot of things that are different than the book but Nolan makes it work he makes it work and it fits together and it works really well so so I agree with you on that but I didn't like it that message anyway like I I I think it works well it's totally consistent it's not a cheat like the twists work the the setup works I think it it tells a clear coherent story I just didn't particularly like the message of the story um yeah the yeah I I give yes the the message that like yeah he they destroyed like they broke civilization by the you know by sacking Troy is is a little bit it's an interesting choice to to make I understand I understand why he made it I understand like it makes it it didn't so like it's funny you asked Jen like if if she liked it more the prestige just talking about the ratings because I I like this movie a lot I want to be clear I'm not gonna give it a bad rating I'm gonna give it a rating of three five um wow but I liked it a lot you like the prestige better than the stuff yeah as I was walking home as I was coming home I was like where do I where would I rank this on my list of Christopher Nolan films and I go I think it sits above the Dark Knight Rises and that's that's probably my second least favorite Christopher Nolan film.
JoeOkay.
TomSo this is your second this is your third least favorite yeah probably my third least favorite yeah which is I love his movies I love all the movies yeah but I was just like yeah so yeah I I think it's very good um I think the performances are terrific I think the direction is terrific I just even though the same person wrote it or co-wrote it and directed it I didn't love the the the writing of it and it's not even written he wrote this himself and it wasn't even the dialogue it was the story and I wasn't thrilled with with with the with the story. I mean that's that's what it is.
JenI think if again if you're a Greek mythological historian or whatever you are maybe a Greek mythological this doesn't there's a lot of beats in here that don't sit right with you. But as a person who just read it for the first time and just wanted to see a Cyclops and like the scenes in the move you know translated I think that most of that is there and and he did a great job with bringing it to the screen.
TomYeah if you're talking about successful adaptation Jen I I agree it's a different it's a different tone than the the the poem but the adaptation from page to screen yeah here are are like the some of these things are are indelible. Like how many times over the course of this is like this scene's um unbelievable this scene's amazing yeah this may be my favorite scene we must have said it like four or five times.
JoeYeah right I uh yeah and I mean so I guess I'll get to that right what adaptation is this a successful adaptation I think so yeah I do too and I think people I think people will be inspired to go back and read it. I will say this and I'm sorry you said that and I'm gonna say something that that kind of the book is okay it's not that great. I think it's overrated the Odyssey of the book so well it's it's like watching Citizen Kane now.
JenYou're like my friend at work it's a lot of report who saw this movie and didn't like it but whatever. But before she saw it she was like oh maybe after I see the movie I'll read it because I forget actually like I read it in high school but I don't really remember and I was like I feel like this isn't the kind of thing that you could now read after seeing this because it's so there's so much more and it's so drawn out that I feel like I would be like come on like what are we doing I feel like the reading again it's somebody it's just like but but but reading it without having seen it condensed into like actiony exciting parts it was good. I I liked it. I thought it was gonna be way harder to read than it was once I got into it I was like the one we read was I mean it was fine. It was easy but uh I would you know I enjoyed it but now I if I hadn't read it first I don't know if I would be able to to get through it.
JoeIt's yeah I mean as I was reading it I remember like I remember not remembering a lot of this stuff because a lot of it's kind of just like fluff. Yeah like you could cut out a lot of stuff that happens in the Odyssey there's a lot of repetitive things that happen there's a lot of just like somebody going somewhere and just talking with them for a while and none of it really I mean they could go on and on for pages and have a conversation and there's like one important thing to the story that's said in the entire conversation. So but it will I'll say it's a successful adaptation. Yeah definitely all right should we wrap it up here? Yeah we have a new patron we are behind we have a new patron who joined like almost a month ago I think and we didn't notice it and I want to apologize and thank Wendy Bales who has joined the company of Chillband and thank you so much for supporting us. Sorry we missed you I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media join us over in Discord to continue the conversation there. We post our episodes on YouTube as well so go check out those and be sure to like and subscribe rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our Patreon page to support us that way there's a lot of cool things that you can get by supporting us.
TomUm links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode Tom final thoughts on the Odyssey um yeah I don't know if I'm gonna go on a cruise for a while Joe I'm I'm glad I went on the cruise before this more call.
JoeJen you want to take us out somebody get these beggars out of here thanks everyone for listening and you'll hear us next time