Shelf to Screen
Ever argued that the book was better? Or wondered how a 1,000-page epic fits into a two-hour movie?
From the creators of the Talk'aran'rhiod podcast comes Shelf to Screen, a deep dive into the transition of sci-fi and fantasy stories from the page to the premiere. Join Joe, Jen, and Tom as they dissect the newest adaptations and the cult classics, exploring what was lost in translation and what found new life on screen.
With the effortless chemistry and sharp wit you’ve come to expect, the trio tackles everything from Arrakis to Westeros. Whether you’re a "book-first" purist or a cinema enthusiast, tune in for insightful analysis, hilarious takes, and a celebration of the stories that are too big for just one medium.
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Shelf to Screen
The Prestige (part 2): Confessions of an Illusionist
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week, we are diving deep into the final act of the magic rivalry that redefined obsession. How far would you go to protect a secret? Would you live half a life, or perhaps, end one every single night?
Hear Jen gasp at the revelation of the machine's true cost! Hear Joe yell about those creepy, water-filled tanks in the basement! Hear Tom analyze the layers of deception as we compare Christopher Nolan’s cinematic puzzle to the original literary adaptation!
We explore the foreboding presence of the Tesla machine and the chilling dedication of Victorian London’s most ruthless illusionists. Is it commitment to the craft or total madness? We break down the differences that make this a must-watch (and must-read) thriller. All that, plus the shocking truth about whether the cat actually survived the teleportation!
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Last time on Shelf the Screen. Because this movie is the reading of a diary. It's ridiculous. Into another reading of another diary. Yeah.
JenIt's like both diaries end with like, I know exactly where you'll be when you're reading this.
JoeYes. We've had some time to let this sit for a week on this movie and this book, right? So we have different feelings.
TomIt's percolated a little bit.
JoeWe have different feelings about it nowadays. I did have some fun facts about this.
TomOh, fun facts.
JoeI'm gonna reveal one fun fact now. I already revealed some, actually, but actually this one. I revealed that one. I already revealed that one. That oh, so you know how we talked about like the Chinese magician who this who kind of inspired this and was real life. That was also mentioned in the books and the movies. What was his name? Qing Ling Fu. Yep. The actual real life magician, that was his name. Qing Ling Su. That was his stage name. It was actually a white dude named William Ellsworth Robinson.
JenWow.
JoeAnd he spoke Chinese.
JenThat's really comparing.
JoeAnd pretended to be Chinese, an old Chinese man who hobbled around with a fishbowl between his legs. Well, he didn't always have a ball. No, I know. But he had to hobble around like he had a fishbowl between his legs.
JenYes.
TomYes. There'd be no difference.
JoeEverybody here's committing. They're dedicated. Would you ever be so dedicated to something to basically live your entire life as a lie? Or a partial lie?
JenWell, Tom, you did that. Half a life.
TomI did that. Yeah, I was gonna say yes. Yes. I've done that. Not for this long a period of time, but yeah. But there was no payoff. There was no no, no, there's no payoff.
JoeThey were doing it at least for some sort of payoff.
JenThere was no prestige at the end of the day.
TomIt was just a pledge.
JoeIt wasn't a turn. There was a turn. Well, there was a turn, but there was no prestige. There was a turn, but there was no prestige.
TomThe trick, whatever it would have been, kind of fizzled out. Yeah. So um the answer is yes.
JoeAs they say multiple times times in the movies, he just disappears. That's it. They're not going to come back. Tom disappeared and never came back. Although you did, but eventually I did, but not.
TomEventually he did.
JoeThere was a prestige many years later. But again, there was no payoff for us. It paid off for you, I guess. All right.
JenAnyway.
JoeThis is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big and or small screen. I'm Joe Alley.
JenI'm Falgen.
TomI don't know why that made me laugh so much. Oh my gosh. And I'm um I'm Trapdoor Cocoza.
JoeNo, you're you're Nicola Thompsla.
TomOh, I should have been Nicola Tomsla. Oh, that sounds better.
JoeAnd we are on our second part of the prestige and having lots of fun doing uh doing it. If you didn't listen to the first part, go back because uh you missed a lot of stuff.
TomSo yeah.
JoeSo I think where we left off, well, we didn't really leave off in any particular spot because we did jump around a bit as we tend to do, as much as we try to keep this linear. We did talk about the book, and we were up to, I would say, in the movie, somewhere around the part where I question the accent that David Bowie was using in this movie.
TomGeneric accent? Yeah.
JoeTesla's what, like Croatian or something?
TomCroatian, yeah. Yeah, believe so.
JoeI don't I uh don't think David Bowie was using a Croatian accent, but he's David Bowie, so I guess he doesn't have to.
JenThat's the answer.
JoeYep. Um, I want to talk about the Tesla, the machine that he builds. There's a lot more gravity, I feel, in the movie about the machine being built than in the book. And one of the things, one of the problems I had with the book was, right? Angier goes to him and says, Hey, can you build me a machine that will teleport me? Well, first he just says that will teleport things. And and Tesla's like, Yeah, sure, I can build that. No problem. Whatever. It it takes him some time. He's not working, and then and then he learns that Angier wants to teleport himself, and he's like, Oh, you didn't tell me you wanted to teleport like living tissue. And he's like, I'll need I'll need to make some tweaks. And again, he's like, No problem though, I'll do this. He does it, sells it to him, and then just kind of disappears.
JenWouldn't if you're Edison came after him.
JoeDoes he come after him in the book, though?
JenUm oh, in the book you're talking about.
JoeYeah, no, we're talking about it in the book. In the book, he's very nonchalant about it.
JenHe has um in the book, he has to leave, uh Angier has to leave America because his brother dies, and then Tesla sends him the machine in the mail.
JoeThat's right. He sends it in the mail. Um but he's very nonchalant about creating a machine that teleports human beings.
TomYes.
JoeAnd is much more concerned about the electricity. When I would think that he would be like, oh shit, I I just created a machine that teleports things. This is what I should be focusing on and making my fortune off of. Yeah. Not the electricity part.
JenFor a magic show.
JoeYes.
JenLike, yeah. There's no other use for this. That's the most there isn't any other use for it, honestly, because it's not a good thing.
JoeWhat are you talking about? You could teleport people like, oh, you want to go back to England? Oh, let me just teleport you there.
JenIt leaves a dead corpse behind.
JoeBut it's just a dead husk. It doesn't, it's not it doesn't.
JenNo, this is it's not good. It can't do it. Is it just a dead husk? Yeah, we it's it's telepathically communicating for years with it's like at least one of them is, which doesn't make any sense, but fine.
JoeWhat if it wasn't all right, so now we we're getting into the book with the with the you know the present-day story with Andrew. What if it wasn't it wasn't the husk that was communicating with him? It was the Wraith, the prestige, the uh that was still alive in the tomb.
JenBut how?
JoeWell, he's like a wraith. He's like uh he has supernatural powers. He he can walk, he can go through walls in the book. He like leaves through walls. To understand what happened.
JenSo the Bordens and the Angiers could finally end on good terms.
JoeBy the way, I also like in the book how the characters just that the present-day characters of the Borden, the Borden grandson or great grandson, and the Angier great-granddaughter. The the Borden great-grandson is just trying to sleep with her uh for for most of the time.
JenHe asks her once and she says no, and then that's it. She thinks there's gonna be another proposition. But he's also he's looking at her while she leans over and stuff, giving down her shirt. But I just imagine that happens all the time.
JoeYeah, you just don't talk about it. Um he gave away our magician's secrets. Um but he does talk about it. Is it isn't there a reference where like he tries to he tries to convince her more than one time?
JenNo, or I don't know.
JoeHe does, and there's some sort of reference to like we can we can reunite the families, like you know, end this feud by just fucking and having a kid, I guess maybe, or or I don't know.
JenBut he also has a girlfriend, doesn't he? But she left him. His girlfriend leaves him.
JoeThat's like part of the thing. His girlfriend, like, loves him.
JenI can't imagine why.
JoeHe seems like a really good dude.
JenYeah.
JoeUm anyway, what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, Tesla, the machine. That was my biggest problem with the book is that he creates a machine that's can teleport things and doesn't really think it's a big deal. And he's just like, yeah, here we go. Take that. I'm gonna go do my elect electricity thing.
TomYeah, I think uh the only thing I think of, Joe, is that the book is really, really, really about obsession, right? Like about being like obsessed with like whatever you're passionate about. And Tesla's only passionate about electricity. He can do other things, but he doesn't give a shit about them.
JoeYeah.
TomLike I think that's what it is. I think he's just another person that that um can't see what he has that's good because he's obsessed about what he wants to make perfect.
JoeCan't see the forest through the trees.
TomYeah, I guess so. Um if you want to if you want to if you want to add cliche to it, yeah.
JoeYeah. So the movie I feel like is a more realistic take on this. Like the Tesla in the movie is very like he's very foreboding and ominous and warning.
JenLike Yeah, it's like what what um I don't care. No amount of money is too much. And he's like, no, did you consider the cost?
JoeYeah, the the c no no, not the monetary cost.
JenThe cost.
JoeThe cost, the emotional cost. And he he literally g gives him the machine and says, You should destroy this. Like, here's the machine, but you should destroy it. I guess he paid him for it. He feels obligated to you know fulfill his end of the bargain, um, and then hopes, I guess, that he'll destroy it. But nope. No, and and they don't they don't go into the fact that he Angiro also uses it to make more money.
JenYeah, I love that.
JoeHe puts gold coins in the machine so he can so he can duplicate Tesla's like he makes this machine that could theoretically just print money, quote unquote, but doesn't really care. Take it. You gave me whatever he whatever he paid for. I forgot what he pays for, like ten thousand dollars or something. I don't know. Which is a lot of money, I guess.
TomA lot of money back then.
JoeBut I guess yeah, he's interested in continuing his research and his experiments.
JenWhat could go wrong?
JoeA lot, apparently.
JenUm I was just gonna say there's a whole big crypt just waiting to be filled with bodies. Thank god they had a really big crypt behind their house.
JoeYeah. The Hugh Jackman double, which is just Hugh Jackman playing his playing uh what's his name? Mr. what is his name called? Uh Root. Root, yeah. Um is this supposed to be another clue that there's two Bordens?
JenI don't know. Because that character is in the the book. It's just literally Hugh Jackman playing both roles.
TomSo I I I remember the first time I saw the movie saying like I thought they did a good job of making the makeup for Hugh Jackman make him look like a guy who just looks a lot like Hugh Jackman.
JenYeah, there's something off about him, but he look but he looks like him. But is it like like a fake nose or this something on his face a little different?
JoeI think it's teeth. I think his upper teeth are like kind of stick out a little bit further. I I think I noticed that. And he obviously talks with a little slight different slightly different voice. Going back, sorry, to the Tesla thing, and I'm glad Wolf Brother put this in chat because I did have a note about this. The references to Edison's men being after him, as if Thomas Edison has like a bunch of thugs who who go around and they burned down his laboratory. But they just ref they're very like they're just casually met Edison's men.
JenI didn't mention to Edison's men that this machine was there.
JoeAnd then like when they when he they're first like he first sees them, he mentions to Tesla, he's like, Edison's men are at the hotel. And it's like, what are they the mob boss? Yeah, he's got a gang of thugs that he sends he sends around after his um his rivals to to beat up or kill.
TomThat's it. And he was uh he was ruthless. Like Edison's the penguin or something, and you just have to exactly Tom, exactly.
JoeI couldn't have put it better myself. Um but it's never explained. It's just like everyone's like, oh, Edison's dead. Oh, this is bad news.
TomWe better like it it's Tesla, and like it's relying on you to understand who Nikolai Tesla was and why Edison would be after him. And like, that's it. Figure it out on your own.
JoeI don't know why he is after him.
TomI know they're like rivals and they have different theories, but well, and uh Tesla's electrical current solution was better and is what we use now.
JoeYeah.
TomAnd well we use both uh technically.
JoeWe do, but your home electricity is a alternating current though.
TomRight. And Edison ran him out of business and and and some people believe helped contribute to I mean, he also was making death race, but helped contribute to the public persona that Nikolai Tessa was a lunatic. And so like people wouldn't do business with him. But he was he destroyed him in business, and like it was it was very but that's more like you know, evil capitalists, not supervillain.
JoeSo this is like a so this story it's like a story within a story, right? We're getting a story of two obsessive men who would who would uh you know who were rivals within a story of two obsessive men who are rivals.
TomLayers upon layers. I like that.
JoeThere's just layers upon layers of this.
JenThat's two inside electricity, like inside baseball.
TomUm we're gonna show you how the electricity gets made here. Yeah.
JoeSo, all right, so we have uh the double. Uh he decides to do this trick with a double, which is in the book. He does get somebody to be his double in the book and performs. But I feel like isn't he's the one. So in the movie, Angier performs the new transported man, but in the book it's Borden who performs the new transported man. Like he's the one who calls it, Borden calls it his his trick the new transported man.
JenSo when he starts doing transported man, the transported man is like an old trick. Oh, right.
JoeBorden kind of reinvents it and you know does his whole trick with his double, the new trick, and he calls it the new transported man. And then I don't remember what Angier calls it as well. Oh, in a flash.
TomWell, eventually it becomes a flash. Yeah, yeah.
JoeBecause then Borden starts incorporating Tesla, does make a machine for Borden, but it's not like a machine, it just does like fancy flashes of lights and stuff, and then you know, the arcs of lightning and whatever, just to add a little flair to his trick. Um, and then like they just keep, I guess, one-upping each other, right? And then it's it's just works out so well that he tries to trick Angier by sending him to Tesla on a wild goose chase when Tesla actually is like, oh no, no, I can make that machine for you.
JenYeah.
JoeAnd does it for him? But I did like the uh I did like the double. I thought he jackman played himself very well. Um, and I like I liked the specific um, and I guess this was done specifically in the movie when Borden's character uh ruins the trick by removing the uh the cushion under the stage. So when Angier falls, he like breaks his leg and then he go Borden goes up through the through into the other guy tied up and has him tied up and has him dangling, and he's like, if you want to see some real magic, come across the street.
JenThat seems like a lot of work for him to do by himself.
JoeNo, he probably had help from uh Fallon.
JenThat's true. You're right.
JoeYeah. Uh I did like that touch. That was that was strictly movie, and I thought that was really great. I love that part. Um, we talked about this a little bit in the previous episode, but I just want to get like solidify this and get everyone's, you know, uh on the record stance. So we're we're all saying that technically Borden didn't cheat on his wife because only one slept with the wife and the other one slept with Olivia.
TomYes, that's that's my take.
JenI don't know for sure, but he definitely slept in the bed with her, like was in the home with her.
JoeDid he? Or did he always, whenever it was bedtime, he always switched out?
JenTo go to the bathroom again.
TomThere are times like because I think she says in the film, right? There are times where like it was like lying next to a stranger or something like that.
JenYeah. She's like, there's days when you don't love me. Well no, that part Yeah It's not just like an hour where you don't love me.
TomYeah, and you see some of it's at night, like they're in bed or whatever.
JoeYeah. Okay. Why would they I don't know, whatever if we don't get to that. I know in the book there's I don't know why.
TomIt could literally just be like, I couldn't get away to make a switch. Or Fallon's work, you know, we've got to we have to do something. We have to we have to be working, you know.
JenYeah, like when he went to at the end, he was like, I want take them to the zoo, you know. He told Fallon, like take, you know, try to get her to try to convince her that you that I love her to Sarah, and then he had to go to like Olivia for something. So Fallon took like so that was Fallon though, not not out, not the other uh Alfred. So I guess that's different.
JoeBut oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Maybe he was saying you go change back into yourself and then do that.
JenHe wasn't telling Fallon, he was telling me I feel like that's dangerous like like to both to both be out.
JoeYou don't think that that happens that they were never both bored in at the same time in different places?
TomNo, I don't think so. I think one of them is always Fallon.
JoeOkay.
TomYeah, I think that's the only way it works. Yeah.
JoeThere was a question I wanted to ask about um I lost it. I lost it.
JenI have I have one more note, and it was when when Michael Cain brings in like uh root and he's made up, you know, like uh he he made him over or whatever. I was I was thinking, is Cutter an ancestor of Michael Cain's character from miscongeniality? I'm like, oh, you fixed him up. He looks good now.
JoeTake care of him. You know, watching this movie, I kind of likened Michael Cain to be like to be the dungeon master of the movie, but not like the dungeon master of the what's going on in the movie, but the dungeon master in the sense of telling us and guiding, guiding us as a viewer in the experience of watching the movie.
TomYeah.
JoeLike now I'm going, like he should have just turned to the camera a couple of times and just talked to us because that's what I felt like was happening.
JenYeah. I like at what point do you think that Michael Cain was like, I'm done with Angier. I'm gonna go be like on board with boredom.
JoeI don't think until the very end, till he finds out what happened. Did he did he Because he wasn't in on the whole the whole Tesla machine, what was really going on with the Tesla machine.
JenDid he see the bodies in the in the tanks and everything?
JoeI don't think he did. Well, it's weird because they're just there.
JenAt the very end when he has them in the they're like in the basement of that theater or whatever.
TomYeah.
JenBecause he's walking out and he passes Fallon going in and he doesn't even look at him, doesn't say anything. Well, he knows that's weird that he didn't that he didn't. Yeah, and then I was watching it with Dan, and he was like, I think he's just done at that point. Like he doesn't care. He doesn't like go back to Hugh Jackman and like warn him that he's coming.
JoeWell, no, because he's uh he's he's in on it. He's with Borden at that point because when he when Bor after Borden kills Angier, he goes back and Michael Cain's there, and he's like, you know, they kind they shake hands, like, oh, I think at some point it probably when he finds out that uh Angier's still alive, he realizes like, oh, now you're messing with like his daughter, and like this is wrong. And he probably went to board, he went to Borden and said, and and he was in on it. That's why he walked by him and didn't like even do anything. He knew he knew he was gonna be coming and was already working with him. Because remember, he knows both of them in the beginning, like he's kind of friendly with both of them.
JenYeah.
TomYeah.
JenAnd I think once he kills the girl, then he kind of like shuns him. And yeah. Yeah. I also feel like they probably should have like timed out how long it actually takes to break that tank open with an axe and like he should have came out like maybe 10 seconds earlier. I think I also think like she probably wouldn't have been dead if in real life.
JoeIf any of them knew CPR, she probably would probably went out.
JenI don't know, yeah.
JoeI mean it's a movie, whatever, but I thought she was gonna live because again, I forgot that she dies and it's very different from the books. And I thought like the the rivalry was gonna start because he almost killed her, you know? Yeah. Whereas in the like, you know.
JenBecause then, like I said before, like the one doesn't know what kind of knot he tied, and then Dan was like, Oh, do you think he really didn't remember? And I'm like, no, he 100% knows what knot he tied, because they looked at each other and she nodded and told him to tie that knot. So he that one knows exactly what he did, and the other one maybe doesn't know because he won't admit it. But yeah.
TomYeah. Well, he just doesn't know. He wasn't there. I guess. Right.
JenBut he says, I'm are I argued with myself about it. Like he like he wanted probably wanted to know also, but the brother was just like, I'm not, I'm not telling you. I don't know.
JoeYeah, I'm not yeah, and it wasn't on purpose. I I don't think there was any purposeful intention. Because like you said, they're they share that look, him and Julia share that look, and she's kind of like, Yeah, do it.
JenYeah, it was definitely an accident. It's an accident, and it's just like he told you don't do that because there's a reason, because he's been in this industry, Michael Cain, I'm saying, who's been doing this for years, and he said, just don't do that not. And they both were like, No, it's fine, we could do it.
TomRight.
JenOkay. You know, if she if she didn't die, then you know, would have been like, you shouldn't have done that either, you know. But the fact that she did die at all, the blame like goes on him then.
TomRight.
JenEven though they were kind of in it together.
JoeRight.
TomWell, they were together, but only one of them's dead.
JenRight.
TomRight? Yeah.
JenAnd I also like what's the difference as far as the audience is concerned? They don't know what you're tying. Right?
JoeLike he said it's better because um it's stronger for when they hoist her up. The concern was that if he ties he was his concern was that if the if they keep using that slip knot, when he hoists her up, she's gonna drop and break her leg at some point.
JenLike the knot is like they wanted to tie the heavier, the harder.
JoeSo he said yes. He said this is this knot's too this type of knot is too loose. When you hoist her up at some point, the knot's gonna give and she's gonna fall and break her leg.
JenOkay.
JoeAnd he said, This is the better not to use. And then they were like, Well, if you when it gets wet, it's going to swell, then she won't be able to get it out.
TomYeah.
JoeThey said they were going to practice it, but did they not practice it at all? And she was just like, No, just do it. We don't need to practice it. I don't know. They don't they don't really talk about that. Where I feel like if they practiced it beforehand and it was working and he did it, then there's you know, yeah.
TomI I I think the impression I get is just like they're they're both vibing. Do it now. Let's do it. Yeah.
JoeIt's it's not like they really that's a bit reckless, then that's reckless.
TomYeah. I like he's definitely right. He's definitely he should be in jail. Not for murder, but for like manslaughter, right? Like he he did that, he knew he wasn't supposed to do it. He got told how dangerous it was, he did it anyway. Um and it's only when uh you know Angiers doubles down by willfully murdering one of them that like it's like, oh, okay, well, now that now the tables have turned.
JenI just thought of something, and I think, Tom, I think you were gonna say something about this later, but um there's a scene right after that where I guess Hugh Jackman's character is like trying to see how it feels to drown when he's like sticking his face in the water. Do you think that that's why he that's how he chose to kill himself by drowning?
JoeNo, I think because Michael Cain says it at the end. Well, he says it at the beginning, he tells him the story about the sailor, says it's like coming home. I think that's why he chose to drown his clone because he thought it was like a humane, kind of peaceful way to do it. And then Hugh Jackman tells, I mean, uh Michael Cain at the end says, by the way, I was lying. It was like it's horrible. And you see, like, you see Hugh Jackman like kind of his eyes wide open, he's like almost like realizing, like, oh my god, what have I done? What have I been doing to myself?
TomAnd and I but okay, so you just said something there, and I want to hit on this. He does not kill his clone, he kills himself every night. The clone is the guy who gets teleported. Right. The original stays in the machine. He the first time, the first time that happens, the clone kills him. First appearance. He's in the machine. Yeah, the clone appears, picks up the gun, shoots him. Oh no, I thought he killed the clone. No, no, he picks up the gun. The clone kills him. I don't think so. He stays in the machine. He doesn't get teleported and reappears.
JenHe has the gun next to him, though.
JoeNo.
TomThe guns the gun's by the controls, not by the control. No, you're right. You're right.
JoeI'm sorry, Tom, you're right. The one in the machine is the one that pulls the gun and kills the other one.
JenIs that the original?
TomNo.
JenNo. Because then what is he saying? He's like, no, don't. I'm I'm Well, he has no.
TomThey're the same person.
JoeNo, but what I'm saying is he's like, I'm you. The one in the machine is the one that kills the other one. But is that not in the trick? In the trick, the one in the machine is the one that's dying every night.
TomEvery time. Right. That's the original. The person in the machine is the original.
JenIf you think about it, it's I don't know. You kill the thing. No matter what, yeah. No matter what, you're gonna die. When you're getting in that machine, you're dying. You're gonna experience dying. There's another person that's you also you that's like, phew, I I'm not dead. You know what I mean? So it's like you have both experiences at the same time. And then that guy who's like, phew, I'm not dead, is like, oh, I have to die tomorrow.
JoeRight.
TomLike I have one day to live more. Like, yeah, I like when you talk about when I I just want to like this is the to me, this is the thing. Like at the end of the movie, right? When like we're going right to it, but like at the end of the movie, when when and Jires has finally died, right? And he's and he's talking to him, but he's like, You never, you never understood, right? You did all this, you sacrificed all this. He's like, I literally murdered myself every single day just so that the audience would know what real magic is. Like, you think you sacrifice. I'm literally look around. I kill myself, murder myself every night. Yes. For that, like that's that's what this movie is about.
JoeIt's like who could go further? Who could go further?
TomWho's more he's a level of insane?
JoeWho's more committed to the bit?
TomRight. He's a level of insane. Like you think like you think Borden is like what he's done is nuts. What this guy does is bananas.
JenBut you don't think he's just doing that to to eliminate there being like 50 of him?
TomHe's not doing no, he's doing that because that's the only way the trick works.
JenSo I want to say something. Why couldn't he just drop down onto a pad?
TomBecause it doesn't because it doesn't work. Because then you're gonna know, oh, there's twins or there's triplets, or there's gonna be a million of him.
JenYes. You don't have to, I would do that rather than kill myself every night. But like he has to eliminate the problem of the city. He's committing to the bit.
JoeHe can't, he's gotta get rid of the evidence. Right. Um in this movie, though, he says something, and I didn't write it down. But when he's kind of revealing that part where he's like, uh, you know, every night he had to kind of kill himself or whatever, kill a clone.
TomClone, but either way.
JoeHe says something like to the effect of like not knowing if it was gonna be me. Like not showing. Right.
JenThat's what I just said. Because you're he like the person that's in the machine is also the guy up there, has the same life up till that moment. So like it's always you, but you're also that guy. I don't think you're both dying and living at the same time. That's what I think.
JoeI feel like it was almost like he didn't sometimes the way he said that and the way I took it, which which I don't think it makes sense, but the way I took it was that sometimes he gets teleported, and sometimes there's a clone that gets created over there. Or it's not, he's not always sure how it's gonna work out.
JenThe one who lives never dies, if that makes any sense. Right. So the guy you're talking to always feels like he escaped death, but another version of him died. Right. So like it's just it's hard to like understand. It's hard to like wrap them.
TomYour consciousness gets like because I'm an insane person. I've often thought about this in terms of like if you ever had the ability to drop your consciousness into like a virtual world and like beater, right? Yeah. And like if you're making a pure copy of your consciousness, right? So you now exist in a physical form and in a different form, right? It's very hard for you to understand, like, well, what's gonna happen? Like, am I gonna feel, am I gonna know like what happens to this other person? Like so, I think what he's saying is like, I don't know if I'm one day this is gonna happen, I'm gonna feel myself drowning, right? He never has, but he doesn't know, right?
JenHe never has because that guy's dead. That guy felt it, but he never talks to you because he's dead now. Because he's dead and the other one is alive.
TomAnd he's dead. I never get a chance to look at him because he's gone. Right?
JoeBut um, yeah, I I just I want to go back and watch that part because like it it made it that part struck me because I was like, yeah. It sounds like he's saying like sometimes he could he die sometimes, like he dies, and sometimes you know, which didn't make any sense.
JenSometimes die because he's alive.
JoeNo, what I want to say is that sometimes his his consciousness, right, goes into the new goes into the new form and he has all of the like do they all have their memories of like the homework?
TomYeah.
JenYes. He's the new, he's a cop full copy. Like in the in the book when he splits, even though one is like a wraith and one is not, they are both like that guy from that point.
JoeBecause they're literally split. They're literally.
JenRight, but that's what this is too. That's what it is.
JoeBut then no, they're they're copies, they're clones. Yeah, this is a this is a little different. Yeah, but he's a transporter room accent.
JenHe has the the whole life before because the other one's dead. So this one that's up on the balcony is him. That's it. He remembers everything. So every night you're getting a different version of him that lives on, and then the next night he dies, and then another one is made.
TomRight.
JenYeah, like his body is dropping in. That's him.
TomYeah, that's him. He's he's killing himself and making a clone. Yes. Keep going.
JoeRight. Okay, so you're saying he's okay. So whoever goes into the machine is the one who dies.
JenYes.
JoeBut it's weird that he says, I'm not knowing if it's gonna be me because he knows he should know every night.
JenIt isn't him, but the one you're talking to didn't drown. He's alive.
JoeBut he knows the next time he does the trick, he's gonna die. Yes.
TomHe's gonna die. Yes. He's saying, like, I think he's looking at this like, hey, I'm two people. Yes. One is dead and one's alive. And I don't know tomorrow if me is gonna be the dead one or the alive one when I'm thinking about myself.
JenRight.
TomBut it's like you don't know what you're gonna experience.
JenYeah, but you always experience the drowning.
TomYeah.
JenBut the one that lived feels like you escaped death for a day. Right.
JoeRight. Can we talk a little bit about his wife committing suicide? Yeah. Nolan's just killing wives.
JenSo she says she knows, but if she really knew, wouldn't she be like, oh, I'm not crazy? Or is she just like, I can't live like this anymore because you won't admit it.
JoeWell, she would just leave him, right? What I mean, that's the same thing to do.
JenI wonder if she really knows or if she thinks it's something else.
JoeI think I think just Nolan wanted to take it. He's kicking everything up a notch, and he was like, We're not just gonna have her leave him. Let's just have her commit suicide.
JenLike in his workshop.
JoeYeah, in his workshop with maybe the same rope that they used to tie up uh Julia. Oh my god.
JenI don't know.
JoeThat's sad. Well, I guess well, they need I guess they need the stakes of him losing his daughter and the daughter going into like, you know, an orphanage. And the only way to do that is to kill the wife.
JenWhen I I forgot when I was watching the movie, I was like, does he, does Hugh Jackman like take the daughter because he is like trying to like apologize? Or is he just being like a complete creepy asshole? And I'm like, oh, it's the second one. It's the second one.
JoeHe's like, I got you, I got you. I got your daughter now.
JenYeah, but it's not like it's not like, oh, you know what? I mean all this happened, but I'll take care of your daughter for you. Like, no. Like, what's gonna happen? What would have happened to her? I don't know.
TomWell, I mean, she would have lived the life of an English lady, I guess. Uh yeah. With a with an absent father?
JoeYeah. She would have been raised by Lord Calderdale or whatever, Cald Caldlow.
JenUm Earl of Caldlow, right? I don't remember in the book, maybe what it is.
JoeYeah. I have I have Lord Caldlow.
JenYeah, I think in the book it's it's like the Earl and then the Lord.
JoeAnd in the book it's no surprise. You know he's you know he's the heir to the from the very beginning that he's the heir to that well his brother, his brother becomes the lord, and then his brother dies, and he winds up becoming the lord. Um but his wife's there with his wife gets he reconciles with his wife, Sarah, and he has kids.
JenWait, you talk about in the book?
JoeIn the book, yeah. And this now, she's dead.
JenNo, Julia, he reconciled.
JoeJulia, I'm sorry.
JenWait, which wife are you talking about?
JoeNo, no, you're right. Julia. Yeah, Angie or Caldlow, Calderdale, yeah, yeah, yeah. Robbie, Rupert.
JenI kind of like that. Because first I was like, she shouldn't take him back, and then I was like, you know what? She like put so much work into like his career and whatever.
JoeYeah. I mean, it was Scarlett Johansson, so it's a hall pass.
JenSo No, Julia was Piper Parabow.
JoeNo, I know that, but she left him because he slept with he was sleeping with Scarlett Johansson.
JenScarlet Johansson? Yeah, I don't know. I don't think she could give him a pass, but it's Scarlett Johansson.
JoeShe gets over it.
JenShe just gets over it eventually.
JoeYeah. It it is years, I mean, in the books that like go by before they kind of reconcile and he he does change. Like he does right. He he becomes a different person. He stops his but he doesn't really in the book. He does stop his his uh war with uh Borden, but Borden keeps putting it attacking him, apparently, you know, but he tries not to retaliate until he like Borden shuts the electricity off.
JenBut he thinks he's doing a good thing by trying by shutting off the electricity.
JoeHe thinks they're gonna start a fire.
JenThey probably would have, because they said that this was like one of the places where they just installed electricity so he could do his show there.
JoeYeah.
JenAnd it it it's in all likelihood it it was up like gonna smoke and explode.
JoeBut like the building inspector, and it's like peck from the EPA and uh Ghostbusters.
JenRight, right. He just did his job. He didn't know.
JoeYeah. Well, they uh I like how they kept that same scene of him like pushing behind backstage from he he disguises himself to come up as a volunteer and then he pushes himself backstage saying, No, I'm part of the show, let me through. Which is exactly what he does in the book, but uh he doesn't yeah, there's no tank of a cloned water um there's no blind stage hands. No, there's no blind stage hands. And I mean he's caught trying to break the tank open, so I don't know why they think he's really trying to kill him.
JenHe's just not supposed to be there, I guess. Well, Michael, nobody knew that that was what he was doing. So to Michael Caine coming upon it, it's like he threw him in the tank and locked it. I don't even know how that would be like.
JoeBut then he's trying to break the tank open, though. Right when he sees them.
JenI don't know.
JoeHe's trying to save him. Michael Cain.
TomLet's get that in there.
JoeUm that yeah, it becomes clear now. My my my wondering why Hugh Jackman's doing the American accent becomes clear because I forgot when he reveals himself as Lord Caldlow, he uses his real British accent, and that was all part of the ruse. He's Australian. Well, no, I mean, I mean the character's real British. Oh Caldwell's real British accent.
TomRight.
JoeAnd I think again, I think like the reveal of him being somebody else really didn't pay off too much in the sense of like it was like, well, what to what end? And I know it was like just because he wanted to become a great magician magician. Okay, it's not as cool as uh the uh living your life as a twin. Like it because in the book he's he keeps his name, he just doesn't tell anybody that he's you know related to the Lord Caldlow. Oh, that's his that's his family's estate.
TomUm yeah, I think in the movie it's just another sign of like uh well, I'm doing this, well I'm doing this, oh yeah, well, I'm doing this. Like it's just another level of like them one-upping themselves in their in like their ways they're sacrificing their lives for their art.
JoeThere's a scene near the end when he right, so so Roger Rees is the lawyer for Lord Caldlow, and he's trying to purchase the um Borden's secrets when he's locked up and saying, basically saying, you know, you're gonna need this money so you could so you so you know your daughter can be taken care of. So he gives in and Hugh Jackman shows up and it's it's revealed that he's Lord Caldlow. Um and when Borden gives him the you know, he's like, No, no, like leave my daughter alone. Here, here's what you want, here's the the secret to the the my trick. And he doesn't even look at it, he just rips up the paper and is like, ah, it's not about that anymore.
JenOh my god.
JoeYeah, just totally meanwhile. I'm curious because one, he should have read that because he'd probably still be alive if he did. Um, or two, was it even was the secret really on there?
JenYeah. I don't know.
TomI think it was.
JenI think at that point he's he's Yeah, he's also sentenced to death, so it doesn't really matter anymore.
TomAnd like he's he's is trying to protect the daughter, you know?
JoeYeah. But he ripped up that paper, I'm like, uh oh, that just signed your death warrant.
JenHow does like like I know nobody in the jail really cares that he's saying that's the guy I killed. They don't ri they don't really care. But like, how's he just like walking around looking the same as he did when he died and nobody's it's it's not like there's you know he's on TV or anything or something. He's a famous stage stage stage. I know, but back then I don't know.
TomMost people who s most people who've seen him have seen him from hundreds of feet away.
JoeUnless you're rich and got good stage. I know, it's just um he does like what does he have a beard or whatever? He's got a little bit of a dish. He has a mustache, which we all know, you know. Does he have glasses on? Is he Clark Kent? Yeah, uh rips up that paper. That's that's the bonkers part, I think, of this of this movie. Yeah, is he he's literally dedicated, not dedicating, but he's literally obsessed about finding out what the trick is to Borden's transporter man thing. That, like you said, he's when he's talking with Scarlet Johansson and he's just like, he's like, Oh, I need to know this. He's like, or when Michael Cain's telling him it's a double, it's a double. He's like, No, no, it's not a double. I gotta find out what it is. It's not a double. When he finally gets what he's been looking for, he just rips it up. Doesn't he?
JenYou see him like crawl back in that night and try to put the pieces of the paper back together. He just wanted to look cool in front of uh Borden.
JoeI think that's the weird part because I think is it just like he's become has it changed from him just being obsessed about knowing what the sh what the the the trick is to like I'm just obsessed now with beating you?
TomYeah, I think it's that. And I think it's I think it's that, and I think it's like I don't need to know what your trick is. I found a trick that's perfect.
JoeOh, that's right. This is yeah, so you're right. I think when he finally gets the machine and does it, he's kind of forgotten.
TomLike I don't need to know, I don't need to, I don't need to know how you did so I could do it better. I've already done it better.
JoeSo then why is he trying to purchase is it just all the time? That's a bring up.
TomThat's that's the breakup. Yeah, I think that's to rub it in.
JoeTo do this, to do the rip-up scene. He's been building up to this ripping up the papers.
TomI've won completely.
JoeOkay.
TomI want you to know you killed my wife, and I've destroyed your life. Yeah.
JoeYes.
JenExcept there's two of you.
JoeNow we've killed each other's wives, technically, although we haven't really killed each other's wives. But both of our wives are dead.
JenBoth of our wives are dead. I mean, that's true. He killed his own. He killed everybody.
TomAll right, she that's like the women in this movie are radically underserved. So let's give her whatever agency she has. She killed she killed herself.
JenWell, she killed herself.
TomBut he he his incentive.
JoeGive her that agency.
TomYeah. His his obsession drove her to this. Drove her to it.
JoeYes. Uh commit to the bit. Um, yeah, I feel like the fact that he does reveal himself as Lord called low as uh as well at the end makes him seem like more even more of a sociopath. Yeah like he's almost sympathetic, and then all of a sudden you find that out, and you're like, oh, he was lying the whole time, too.
TomYeah, yeah. Just everyone's despicable.
JoeYeah, they're all pretty despicable, I guess.
TomNo, just Michael Cain's alright.
JoeMichael Cain's alright. Um, he doesn't he's not in on the bad stuff for the most part.
TomNo.
JoeI like how uh Borden's final words are abracadabra.
TomYeah.
JoeThat's that's great. And then uh we get the all the re I but that's when we get all the reveal of everything. The chiseling the fingers off.
JenYeah. Um taking off of the makeup as Fallon and switching it over.
JoeYes, that was where I was wondering which one was which, which one was the father, and which one was actually loved Sarah versus loved Olive. Um yeah, here was my note. Jackman's character implies that he does not know if he will be the one teleported or the one who stays, though the mechanics of the machine are remaining ambiguous. That was the whole thing about him dying, but it's more of a philosophical question than a logistical one, I think, right?
TomYeah.
JoeUm so we were talking a little bit about Cutter, Michael Cain's character, and you know how he kind of turns over to Borden's side at the end. Do you think there's a potential that he was working with Borden even sooner than that?
JenNo. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so either.
JoeOkay. He was just a decent man doing the right thing at the end of the day.
JenYeah, once he went to America Once he went to see Tesla, he didn't go with uh Michael Cain didn't go with him. But then when he came back, he was like, no, you can't come in, you know, he told him you can't come backstage anymore, you have to work the front of the house.
JoeWell, that wasn't like a punishment. I think he said, I want you like I I thought that was like a promotion. Like I want you kind of running through the phone.
JenBecause he didn't want to see anything.
JoeWell, he didn't but he's he made it sound like it was kind of like a promotion. Like, I need you up front, like running things, like managing the whole thing.
TomI think he did post it like that, but it's also like you can't know what this trick is. Yeah.
JoeYeah, I mean they don't they don't he doesn't box the stage as he does in the book, but I guess he hires a blind uh assist a blind uh assistant who wouldn't know what was going on.
JenWheel this tank, absolutely empty tank of water.
JoeYou hear that banging on a on a water tank? That's nothing. Ignore that.
JenYeah. Oh my god.
JoeYeah. And why does he keep them in the water tanks and lines them up in that in the basement? Like, why are they still in water tanks?
JenYeah, why doesn't he take them out of the tank and like dispose of it?
TomOh, I imagine it's I don't think he's spending a lot of time looking at his dead bodies.
JenI know, but like what are you gonna do? Like how many can you accumulate?
JoeI don't know. It just seems like that's a good thing.
TomDo you think like do you think he knew that like do you think like he knew that Borden was gonna try and do something like this and like he was gonna do this until he could get boarded?
JoeOh, he sets Borden up because he says he says something like Borden's gonna have to come. Like when he when he sets those last set of shows up, he's like Borden's gonna ha can't wouldn't be it won't be able to stay away.
TomThat's my point. So like that's that's how long he's gonna do it until he gets bored.
JoeAnd he doesn't Oh that's what you think that's why he's keeping them like that as like a as like a No no like that, but like like you're like
TomHow long is he gonna do it? He's gonna do it until he gets bored, and that's the end. That's the end of the state. No, but but I mean, how long is he gonna keep them like in tanks of water in the basement or wherever it is, the warehouse shop or whatever it I I imagine it's like a sealed tank, they're preserved, he doesn't have to worry about them stinking.
JoeYeah.
TomOh I I have luckily, I I have no idea how you would actually get rid of a dead body.
JenLike um bury it or burn it. Probably but it's gonna build Sorry, Jen.
TomGee.
JenStop talking about dead bodies. How how did the guy up top, how did the prestige know that Borden was there and didn't come out?
JoeBecause he's got all his memories and everything, so he knows everything that the other one knows.
JenBut how do they but the other one knew the Borden was there?
JoeNo, no.
JenDoesn't know what he's doing.
JoeThis happens every night. Whether Borden's there or not.
JenNo, but he doesn't come out and like end the trick that night.
TomWho doesn't come out? How does he know that Borden's in the is is issues.
JenHow do they know they got Borden this night? Yeah.
JoeWell, Michael Cain, Michael Cain sees him down there.
JenYeah, I g I mean, yeah, but I don't know how he would communicate that to the prestige guy.
JoeWho's communicating to the prestige? What do you think?
JenSo the guy comes out and ends the trick, like up in the rafters or wherever he comes out.
TomHow does he know not to reveal himself because he's gonna pretend to be dead so Borda goes to jail? Oh is the question that Chen's asking.
JoeOh because he can't reveal himself and then also be dead. Right. Yeah.
TomSo he's a good thing.
JoeWell, they can well well, I'll say this. Right? There's it's not like they're doing uh well, they're doing autopsies, but it's not like they can pinpoint the time of death down to the minute. So they can say that that that that happened after the trick that bored and drowned him.
JenUh I don't know about that.
JoeWell, that's a double. Oh, they can just say that that's a double. That's a double.
JenUh but he doesn't come out. Uh we I don't know, whatever. It doesn't matter.
JoeIt's because we don't know because we don't see what happens above stage at that point, right? Do we? Once he once he drops through the trapdoor and into the tank and anybody applauding or anything, though. I wasn't paying attention. That's a great question, though. I didn't think about that. Um, I would say either he saw well, he saw Borden on stage. Because Borden was on stage. Remember, he comes up as a volunteer and then he pushes his way when he's like leaving the stage, he pushes his way to the state.
JenYeah, does he think he knows he was there? I guess maybe he knew he was there.
JoeHe saw him, would be my guess. I mean, that's one way to think.
JenSo it could have been like a Yeah right. You know, he and Borden went down before he fell into the water, so they could have communication.
JoeI would say Angier saw him in the crowd and saw him come up on stage. That's that's the easy way.
TomYeah.
JoeRight?
TomThe other way is that finally the fake the fake beards don't work.
JoeYeah. The the other way is that it doesn't matter. The the prestige comes out, does his thing, and then afterwards they just say, oh no, afterwards, this is what this happened.
JenBorden killed, you know, drowned, you know, but Michael Cain thinks that he's really dead, too. Oh, that's true.
TomWell, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. But he is. I mean, like, it's clear to everybody that the guy in that tank is the real engineers.
JenRight, yeah.
TomSo it doesn't make a difference. No one's gonna go, oh, but he cloned himself. Like, that's not a big one.
JoeThey'll think that's a double. That's why I was saying he could just say it was a double. Yeah, and point to the drunk guy.
TomRight.
JoeBut I think it's he saw him on he saw him in the audience and come up on stage is the probably the simplest answer, and the one that makes the most sense.
TomYeah.
JoeNow the fact that Michael Cain just happened to be down there that same time is a that was just luck.
JenWell, he saw him pushing through.
JoeYeah, but I mean, like, if Michael Cain doesn't see him though, if Michael Cain doesn't no, no, what I'm saying is, right, this is he's Michael Kane is not part of this. He doesn't know that this is all planned out and that what's happening. Right. So if Michael Cain doesn't see Borden go push his way through and follow after him, then basically what happens is how does how is it revealed that Angiers is dead? And who's the who's the if it's just Borden down there and the blind guy does like was one of the was there another stage hand who was in on it and was gonna show up and be like, you killed him? I don't know.
TomWell, again, I so I think here's your same bit, right? If he he he has to know that he has to know that Angiers is there, uh that that Borden is there. Because if he doesn't know that Borden's there, he rev he just does the trick like normal, right? Yes, but he knows that Borden's there, and it doesn't make a difference whether anyone finds her or not. He knows Borden's there, he's gonna be dead, and they're gonna find out that like if he knows Borden's there, he'll tie it back to Borden. Remember, he's got money and resources at the wazoo, too.
JoeThat's true. I'm just wondering like who finds the bot who finds the body or reveals the the death because he never shows up, like eventually.
JenYeah.
JoeYeah.
JenYeah.
JoeSo I guess I wonder if he recalibrated the machine so that for that, oh no, he wouldn't have been able to do that if because he would have had to have known that Borden was going to be there beforehand. So I guess it's just kind of like what happens in the book where he does appear up there, but he kind of just ducks down and hides.
TomYeah.
JoeHe appears up in the balcony and hides. Yeah.
TomYeah.
JoeUm, before anybody sees him.
TomYeah.
JoeOkay. I'll I'll I'll buy that. That makes the most sense. This movie uh was only made for 40 million dollars, by the way.
TomThat's banana.
JoeThat's a modest budget. But remember, there's not a lot of there's not really any CGI on the in this. I all the just the lightning stuff, I think, is really the only like special.
TomCrazy effect, yeah. Yeah, like effects. But but you've got Wolverine, Batman.
JoeWell, yeah, but Christian Bale is not Christian Bale is not a big budget actor at this point.
TomHe is already Batman.
JoeHe was Batman, but he's not that like it was Batman, this, and then I think he's like start after this is where he started commanding some higher salaries. I don't think he's making a lot of money. I would love to know what his salary was for this movie, but I guarantee you Jackman probably got a lot more than he did. Um, and then Scarlett Johansson is she's she's not peak yet, but she's getting there, I think, at this point, right? Yeah, she's she's like okay, so Christian Bale before this movie, he did Jackman five million, Bale nine million.
TomReally? According to AI.
JoeOh, well, I don't believe that.
JenBale is playing two different parts. Well, so is so's Hugh Jackman.
JoeEverybody's playing one character. No, he's playing. He's playing one person, one like he oh no, you're right. He's playing his his double.
JenIt's not a big part, but his clones. Yeah, like like every time Fallon is there, is that also Christian Bale every time?
JoeSo, yeah, American Psycho, uh, let's see, American Psycho, Laurel Canyon, Captain Corelli's Mandolin, a rain of fire. I remember that movie. I saw that in the movie. Yeah, I saw in the theater. Equilibrium, the machinist is kind of where he starts, I think, kind of getting a little bit. Then Batman begins, then here we go.
TomJackman took less money. Jackman took less money up front, but he got he got uh profits in the movie. So he ended up earning 20 mil.
JoeOkay. Okay. I was about to say that's really bonkers that Christian Bell would make more money at this time.
TomYeah, so he took a straight salary. Jackman took a thing. Uh Michael Cain about 5 million, and Scarlett Johansson about four and a half.
JoeOh, that's a lot. I'm surprised that Scarlett Johansson got that much, to be honest with you. Because I mean, she's not a big part of she's not a big part though in this movie.
TomIt's not like No, she's not. She's I I don't like I like Scarlett Johansson.
JoeWell, she's Scarlett Johansson. Right. I guess not, yeah. They wanted to, I guess, put a woman on the poster as well. I don't I don't know. I mean, she's this is let's see, what did she do? Black Dahlia was the movie right before this that she did.
TomOh, that's a thing. I forgot about that movie.
JoeThe perfect score, the girl with the pearl earring was lost in translation. So yeah, this I mean, this is after Lost in Translations Girl with the Pearl Pearl Earring. Um, so I guess, yeah, so she is kind of big at this point.
TomThe island match point. She had done a bunch of right Woody Allen films, yeah.
JoeYeah. All right, so she is a big so to be honest, so she got four and a half million, and she's not a big part of this movie. If she was like a more of a main character, she probably would have made more money than Bale. Um, although, you know, there's that inequity with yeah, she's also a woman. Female. Which I think is also part of this. But um, so okay, so the budget was 40 million dollars. Um, this wasn't like it was most of it was sat cas salary.
TomYeah, right? We said up front that's 24 million dollars on four actors.
JoeWell, yeah, I figured that most of this 40 million is is that because they they shot this movie in Los Angeles, right? Because it was too expensive to go to London to film this movie.
TomOh wow, yeah.
JoeSo like they use like the broad old Broadway district and and and sound stages for this to like do all of the filming, like the outside stuff. It's freaking LA. Um, so it definitely was shot on a pretty damn. I mean, I guess compared to Batman Begins, which was probably a lot more, was probably on a much higher budget than this movie. Yes, but I mean this movie wasn't like a blockbuster. I know we said blockbuster in like that the our original intro, but it made 109 million dollars worldwide. Still it was a it was a commercial success, like it wasn't like a huge movie, but it was big. And remember also, right? This movie was competing with the other movie about magicians in in Oh the illusionist. Oh the illusionist right because this came out in 06, and then uh and we're Norton and Paul Giamatti, right? Yeah, it's oh Giamatti. Is that the is is is some a hike in that movie too, or am I? I don't remember.
TomI was gonna ask you who the who the who the Jessica Beale track is the attractive this they they both came out the same year.
JoeBoth of these movies came out the same year.
JenIt's like Bugs Life and Ants.
TomOh, deep impact and uh Armageddon.
JoeOh, Rufus Sewell's in this movie too.
TomUm yes, Rufus Sewell's the the the evil uh he's crowned prince Leopold. That that that Jessica Beale wants to also be with Jessica Beale.
JoeYeah.
TomSo fights were a love.
JoeYeah, the only time two two movies came out in the same year about magic back in.
TomThat happens a lot. It's really odd.
JoeLike a a historical piece about magic? Magician.
TomNo, that's like we just said we just gave two other examples of like a bug's life in ants or deep impact and argued it, like a two like high concept films that are ostensibly the same plot come out in the same year.
JoeWell, this is like this is like the product of studio executives, like, oh that oh, this this this uh studio is coming out with a movie about this. We gotta come out with a movie about that too. Yeah, right. Um, give me some get me some script. I don't care where it comes from, and let's make it into a movie. I mean I saw both in these movies. Uh The Illusionist, I remember not being very good. Uh The Prestige, I think, was the better of the two. I will say that um with confidence.
TomSpoiler for your your rating to come down.
JoeWell, I guess yeah, if we ever do was The Illusionist based off a book? I don't think so.
TomNo, I meant more for this movie when we do our ratings for the movie that we're doing.
JoeNo, I was thinking like if we ever do the illusionist, what oh, I don't know. It was nominated for one Oscar, the Illusionist. Whereas um The Prestige was nominated for two Oscars. Cinematography, cinematography and um art direction.
TomIt is based on a short story, the The Illusionist.
JoeOh uh oh. But is that like a sci-fi fantasy? I don't know if that's I feel like that's more Yeah, this this this gets in there because of Tesla.
TomI don't know, I don't know what happens.
JoeYeah, and the building of the machine that could actually create clones.
TomSo yeah, yeah, there's there's there's actual cloning and teleportation or whatever.
JoeYeah. Um, so uh 2007, the Oscar winner for Best Picture was the departed. This wasn't this wasn't even nominated for Best Picture. Uh it wasn't even nominated, neither of them was nominated for leading role.
TomUh no, it was like best uh costuming.
JoeIt was art direction and cinematography. It was it was nominated for those two. It didn't win any. So I mean, we've got uh so Forrest Whitaker, Last King of Scotland won, Helen Miren and the Queen won, Alan Arkin, Little Miss Sunshine, and Jennifer Hudson and Dream Girls.
TomAll deserving winners.
JenI love Little Miss Sunshine.
JoeI love that movie too. And Alan Arkin's awesome in that movie, by the way.
TomHe is, yes. Um beat beat up Marky Mark Wahlberg. Marky Mark's best best supporting actor that year, too, for the departed.
JoeUm and then Scorsese finally won his best director award for no wait, this is his second. Yeah, this is the first one, right?
TomFirst one, right?
JoeYeah, it was the first one, was for the departed, yeah.
TomYeah.
JoeUh Sun Lil Miss Sunshine won best original screenplay play, and the adapt uh the departed was an adapted screenplay.
TomYeah, it's a remake of a Japanese uh film.
JoeOh, okay.
TomLike a Chay Young Fat film.
JoeUh so by the way, so the Illusionist was also nominated for Best Cinematography. Um but what won I think deserved it. Panz Labyrinth is the one that won that. Okay, yeah. Which forest and it also won the art direction Pans Labyrinth was also, which was the other one, I think.
TomThat was uh that's a good year for movies. I didn't realize that 2006 Oscars had some strong films at that year.
JoeYeah, yeah, that was uh that's pretty big, pretty big there. Um, so while like I said, the movie was a uh a moderate, a moderate commercial success. Uh Variety hailed it as clever, cleverly compressed puzzle movie. Although the New York Times found it, its triple layered timeline, chilly and emotionally detached.
JenMan.
JoeThe diary within a diary.
TomUm that's the that's the book.
JoeThat's not the the well in the movie. It's the in the movie, it's the diary within a diary, too, because it's it's Angier reading Angier's you're reading Angier's diary, and then Borden's reading Angier's diary, and in Angier's diary, he gets Borden's diary and is reading that.
TomRight.
JoeAnd then, you know, there's the um while Borden's reading the diary in prison, it's like Angier starts talking to him in the diary, basically. Yeah.
TomWhich I guess he's reading it.
JoeYeah. Uh let's see. So the the twist ending became, you know, a cultural touchstone for Nolan, and you know, kind of adding to his reputation of doing these types of puzzle films. And obviously, like we get Inception and um uh what's the other one? Tenant, which he loves, and I mean you put this, put memento, put Inception, put tenant together. And I don't try to think if there's any other one.
TomInterstellar.
JoeYeah, interstellar. Interstellar, even yeah, and and but he likes to mess with time and the linear linear story.
TomInterstellar, oh, even in uh Dunkirk is is like it's a straight story that messes with time because you you're watching that movie before you realize it's three different timelines. I don't know if you ever see that one.
JoeAnd no, I didn't see that, but then also like to call to call over to like his Jonathan Nolan's brother, who you know writes all of these movies with him. Yeah. Uh also like thinking of Jonathan Nolan was behind the Westworld TV show, and yeah, that movie also messes with timelines. And um, it's just like us a signature Nolan thing. They like to mess with time. You know, we talked about some of the main changes, right? Like the present-day subplot in the in the book, um, the machine itself, Tesla's machine working differently. Um, and obviously the character of Olivia Wenscombe is kind of a bigger role in the book and more of a catalyst. I mean, in the movie is more of a catalyst than in than she is in the book. Uh, Christopher Priest's reaction to the movie, he described the film as brilliant and unusual, uh, praising the Nolan brothers for finding a cinematic equivalent to his epistolary style. Although in 2012, Priest became critically outspoken about Nolan's later work, The Dark Knight trilogy, which technically already started, but um, calling those films shallow and noting that he often felt like the guy who wrote the book that Christopher Nolan made into a film. Which is what's pretty accurate, though.
TomYeah. Yeah.
JoeUh, let's see, any fun facts that we didn't talk about? I mentioned the no digital camera tricks for the magical performances, those were actually Bale and Jackman. Uh, the cat in the Tesla sequence. Um, it's a tribute to Tesla's real-life childhood cat, uh, Maycac, whose static electricity inspired his life's work.
JenInteresting.
JoeYeah. In the book as well as in the movie, the cat is Allie's cat. Allie, it's an Alley cat. Oh, well done.
JenGot it.
JoeYes. I uh that just came out. Um the opening shot uh with the top hats in the woods is a prestige for a trick the audience doesn't yet know they are watching. A classic Nolan hidden in plain sight clue. I forgot that they opened that with that shot of the hats.
TomYeah, one of the one of the posters was just hats in the woods and like a light in the in the distance.
JoeYeah, hats. I figured I had I had to use the hats for the for the background.
TomOh yeah, yeah.
JoeUm, all right. Are we ready to give our review our ratings for this one?
JenYeah. Yeah.
JoeDid we miss anything? Are there any notes that we didn't get to?
JenNo. I'm good.
JoeI am alright. Anyone want to go first or shall I?
JenI'll go first.
JoeGo for a channel.
JenI really like this movie a lot. I've always liked it. I'm always usually I'm usually a big fan of Christopher Nolan movies, but um this one I've always liked as, you know, we'll talk about the book in one second, but um I will give this a four.
JoeAll right. Um I I will say this. Um I do like I like this movie as well. I found myself less saying like that's dumb or why are they doing that in this movie, that even though it was very different than the books, I I found myself asking more questions than you know, coming up with stupid uh nitpicky things about it, which I liked because even though I read the book, it doesn't answer a lot of questions in the movies. But I mean you can piece it together, and I I feel like there's still some potentially lingering questions out there that don't have definitive answers that can still be discussed, uh, you know, with with some fun and and not being able to point to a direct, you know, definitive answer, which I think is what Nolan likes a lot in his in his work. So I'm gonna give this a 4.25.
JenNice.
JoeIt's well acted as well, well shot. Uh, I think one thing I forgot to mention was that um they used uh handheld cameras for this, yeah. For filming this, and the cinematographer, uh oh, what's his face? Uh Wally Fister.
TomOh, yes.
JoeHe said, like after filming for a few hours, or or like halfway through filming, it was like killing him that you know, with having to use a handheld camera.
TomYeah.
JoeYou know, the weight of the camera instead of using like steady uh mounted camera.
TomSo you're not gonna get a half quarter store for that? No.
JoeUh no, no, I'm just saying like it was well shot, like it was a well done movie.
TomI I agree. I think it was um I like this movie very much. I think it's well acted, I think it's well written, uh well structured. Obviously, it still holds up. Uh but really yeah, but you know, it's the price you pay for being an obsessive. I think that Nolan a lot of the films that Nolan makes are in some ways about Christopher Nolan himself, like any good authorian uh would be. And I think that um I think he is reckoning with like how much being obsessed with like being a filmmaker, like what price is he paying in his life for that. So I think this is, you know, this is touching the autobiographical, which I really enjoy. However, there was a long time where like people were like, Christopher Nolan does not write parts for women, and I think this is part of that movie. I think that like there are females in this movie, obviously, that have important parts plot-wise, but like I don't feel like they're given anywhere near as much to do as as the men are, and that that does take it down like a little bit of a notch for me.
JoeWell, he does kill off one of the main like one of the more main female characters, like within the first 10 minutes of the movie, right?
TomYeah, she I mean he fridges her, and like um and Olivia is like kind of I don't know, kind of she's got a bigger part than she does in the book. She does, all right. But uh still I I'm gonna give it a four stars as well. I think it's I mean it's very good. It's it's highly enjoyable, you know. I recommend it to anybody.
JoeNow, here's the real difficult question. Was this a successful adaptation? It's very hard to say because it was a successful movie, it was it a good movie, but it's it's so different in so many ways, yet so similar in so many ways.
TomI think it's successful in the way like Jurassic Park is successful. It's taking the curl of the idea and it's making something like kind of different with it. Like it has some pretty radical departures from the original script, but like I don't think anybody who enjoys this movie would not want to read the book or not enjoy reading the book, or like would read the book and go like this is completely different, uh like an alien idea to me.
JoeYeah, and I mean I've had the luxury of you know, and I've said this before, you know, watching the movie first and enjoying it and then reading the book doesn't take away as much from the movie as if you read the book first, enjoyed it, and then watched the movie. Um I I don't know if that's good.
TomIs this the first one that we've done that none of us read the book before we saw the movie?
JoeI didn't uh I'm trying to think. Let's so let's see. The books no, no, no. Uh well, Starship Troopers saw the movie before I read. Book. You did you two didn't read the book.
TomYeah, right. Okay, okay. So it's not. Never mind.
JoeI mean total recall technically, but that's like a 10-page short story. Yeah.
TomUm okay, sorry. Stranging from the record.
JoeI think or The Martian as well. I I didn't read the Martian. No, I I I saw the I read the Martian.
TomI read the Martian before I saw the movie.
JoeAnd I'm still not sure about Ready Player One whether I saw that before I read the book. I feel like I feel like I saw it, but I don't I didn't remember it when I saw re-watched it. So um but yeah, that's something I've at least experienced with other adaptations for sure. So I don't know if it's the fact that I saw the movie a couple of times well, once at least before reading the book, and it was a good movie, so I didn't I didn't mind it as much. And I don't know, but yeah, I I'm gonna say the fact that you put it like Jurassic Park in that context, I agree. I think it was a successful adaptation. But if you want to see a slightly different story that's just as good and maybe a little bit more fucking weird, read the book.
JenYeah, it was extremely creepy in the end.
JoeAlright, shall we wrap it up then? Wait, Jen, did you say successful adaptation? I'm sorry.
JenUm, I don't know. I guess it's a suc Yeah, I mean it catches like the the feeling of it, kind of, but then it kind of also veers off. It's like for a time it's a good adaptation. I wouldn't call it a bad adaptation because I really like the movie, but and it's not like so far afield. But if I was a big fan of the book and I was excited about seeing all that stuff, I might be a little disappointed. All right.
JoeAll right, let's wrap it up here. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. Go check us out on Discord and continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and check out our merchandise. Oh, we don't have a merchandise page. We should get one of those. Check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Final words, Tom.
TomUh, I'm just gonna say, like we're very excited about the next episode that we're gonna do. It's a Nolan twofer. Uh we're first time for uh this pub, we're all gonna watch the movie together because we're gonna be doing uh the Odyssey.
JoeThat's right. Stay tuned for that. We're linking these. I just realized we're like linking right. So Andy Circus is the link between this and the previous, and now we're linking Christopher Nolan. And we did do like a couple of we did two Spielberg movies in a row.
TomYeah, yeah.
JoeUm, and I feel like there was another, well, actually, we did three Spiel Spielberg. Oh no, because we did the 2025 War of the World. Sorry, was a bonus.
JenIs there anything that links the Odyssey to the next movie we're doing after the Odyssey?
JoeNo, absolutely not.
JenAnd the actors.
JoeUnless there's an actor is Jefferson. Like the cinematographer or Pierce Brosnan? Is Pierce Brosnan in the No I don't think so.
TomI don't think so. Okay.
JenYou never know.
TomUm man, I can't wait.
JoeJen, you want to take us out?
JenNow you're looking for the secret. But you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled. But you wouldn't clap yet, because making something disappear isn't enough. You have to bring it back.
JoeThanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.