Tom 0:00

While the book asked readers to carefully unravel a century old magical mystery through unreliable narrators and layered storytelling, Christopher Nolan adapted a blockbuster that somehow convinced millions of people that the biggest mystery wasn't the ending, it was trying to remember which character was pretending to be someone else at this time.

Joe 0:57

And just going back to the beginning, like watching this whole movie again, I was like, I forgot so much stuff. But as I was reading the book, even though I didn't remember a lot of the movie, I was like, this is wildly different than the movie, than what I remember in the movie.

Jen 1:12

Yes.

Joe 1:13

Uh yeah, very, very different. I mean, the idea was the same, I guess, but took a lot of different turns.

Jen 1:20

Yeah. The tone was a little different, I feel.

Joe 1:25

I feel like the message is also different. Yeah.

Jen 1:28

Yeah.

Tom 1:29

Well, okay, well, I'm curious just because I I've heard different people take away different messages from the film. Okay.

Joe 1:36

We'll get into that when we get into it. Um I don't I don't really want to say this, Tom, to make your head any bigger than it already is. But um, when we were at Walcon, well, people said, you know, we were at Walk on this past weekend and you couldn't make it. And people were asking about you, and they said they miss you and say hi. Um, but somebody lets let's slip in front of us that you were their favorite of the three of us. Like, no bullshit. Wasn't joking around, said it, and was like in the middle of saying it, was like, oh, who I'm saying this in front of the Joe and Jen.

Tom 2:10

Like when they were saying it to somebody else and you were there.

Jen 2:13

No, no. Saying it to your face. Listen to your face to the table. Yeah.

Joe 2:17

To the table. When we went out to dinner on Sunday night. Yeah.

Tom 2:21

Oh my gosh. Uh, you don't have to say live here, but I I really would love to know uh uh after the it's someone we it's someone we know very well and like very much so.

Jen 2:32

It was fine.

Tom 2:34

That's great. I I am sure that's a rare feeling amongst people who enjoy the three of us.

Joe 2:40

No, no, I feel like other people said it too, but uh they might have been half joking because you weren't there. Yeah. And I have to say the the Matt Hatch fake out was beautiful and it worked perfectly, and I was very proud and happy that uh the looks on people's faces.

Tom 2:57

That's terrific. So so how I mean before we get started, like how was it? I I you other than great and the photos that I've seen, we really hadn't had a chance to talk about it at all. How was how was hosting the con for the first time?

Joe 3:09

It wasn't so bad. I very much disliked having to wake up earlier than I'd like to because of it.

Tom 3:15

Yes. Oh yeah, I didn't even think about that.

Joe 3:17

That was that was probably the worst part of it. I was and by day two, I was just like, I was just my mind was kind of in a fog, so it was very hard to get function on stage.

Jen 3:28

I felt we weren't, obviously, but it felt like we were doing everything because we were like hosting and then you know, we'd have panels and then the nighttime stuff. So it was like just constant, but it was fun. I had a lot of I had a lot of fun hosting and getting to interview Brianka. That was awesome.

Joe 3:50

She was great. She was I was very happy with the interview because she was she was just awesome. So like we really couldn't have we couldn't have messed it up.

Jen 3:58

Yeah.

Joe 3:59

I mean, it would have taken it really hard to mess that interview up because she was just really good.

Jen 4:02

Um our questions were like too professional. I was like, I can't, I can't ask for this. I can't ask her this. It's too serious. Yeah, it was too serious. She was like being so like candid and telling these like crazy stories, and then the next question would be like, tell us about the difference in the water relationship. I'm like, I can't, I can't. I did ask that one, but I was like picking and choosing. I'm like, she just wants to tell us crazy stories and have fun. So yeah, it was good.

Tom 4:30

How present was she at the con? Like, was she like was she sociable in between?

Joe 4:34

Like, I know it's tougher, not too much, not too much. Well, uh on the last day, so Avi from you know, Avi who does all like the parodies. Yeah, so Avi was there. Um, it was his first time, you know, coming. He was very excited. Uh, he was very excited to meet us. Um, but he convinced Priyanka, he he wrote a parody for her at the con and convinced her to record it. And that's amazing. Him and her and uh Thirsty, the clown, were in this one of the side rooms recording it for two and a half hours.

Tom 5:08

Oh my gosh.

Joe 5:10

Yes. And it will be premiered. The full video will be premiered at Watt Idol. She gave permission to submit it to Watt Idol.

Tom 5:17

So yeah, that's that's terrific. Well, okay, we know who's winning this one. All right. Um, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I Hulger was saying she was.

Joe 5:24

Wat Ones was was amazing. I mean, her and Kevin and Jess were just awesome all together. I would definitely recommend going and watch that. Kate was just chopping down her wings.

Tom 5:36

Undefeated champion.

Joe 5:37

Yeah. Um, but yeah, it was good. I would recommend going back and watching uh, you know, the interview with her and the uh I would say Watt Ones at least.

Tom 5:45

And yeah, I do have a virtual ticket, so I'm going to uh catch up, I think, this weekend.

Joe 5:51

Yeah.

Tom 5:52

Try and go back and take a look at stuff.

Joe 5:54

Yeah. So this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big end or small screen. I'm the great Perry.

Jen 6:04

I'm Olivia Genscomb.

Tom 6:07

And I'm to Tom Canary. Uh ho ho ho ho ho ho ho.

Joe 6:13

And to on this episode, we are going to be diving into the prestige. The 1995 novel, uh, I didn't know this was a book until Jen said, Let's do this. Uh, it was written by Christopher Priest and then made into a movie in 2006 by Christopher Nolan and his brother. Yeah, as I was saying when we kind of started this, as I was reading this book, I was thinking, this is very different than the movie. And just thinking of how bonkers this book is and how like weird and wild and kind of the twists and turns it takes. But yet, knowing the whole time, right? We're I mean, there's no spoilers, obviously. But I mean, spoilers, yes, but you should have read it or watched the movie. Like, knowing the whole time starting this book that the that the two like the Bourgins are twins. Yeah, I came to question that while I was reading this book, thinking like there's so many different things that are from the movie. Like, is that not the secret?

Jen 7:09

Yeah. I almost wish I didn't know.

Joe 7:12

But then, like, they just casually let it reveal it like maybe three-quarters of the way through the book.

Jen 7:18

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 7:20

The one guy, the reporter is like, yeah, yeah, it's twins. I was wrong. I said it wasn't twins, but they are twins.

Jen 7:25

Like, in the movie, Michael Cain says it like four times. Yes. He's like, I'm telling you how he does it, it's a double. And you Jackman's just like, no. No, no, no, no. And he's like, yeah.

Tom 7:37

Okay. Michael Cain sees it once, goes, This is how he does it.

Jen 7:42

Yeah.

Joe 7:43

Well, yeah. He's like, that's the only way it could be done. Well, I'm not- Well, we but we do learn there is another way to do it.

Jen 7:49

Well, not really.

Joe 7:51

Well, there is.

Jen 7:53

There's a big difference between and I want to actually we'll talk about when you're reading the research about how it describes what happens to Hugh Jackman when he's in there, because I didn't it's very weird in the book, and I want to make sure we get into that part of it.

Joe 8:09

Yeah. And I mean, there's there are a lot more clues in the book that they're twins. Like in the the character of Alfred Borden has twins.

Tom 8:18

Well, yeah.

Joe 8:19

In the movies, he's got one daughter, but in the book, he's got twins. Like that obviously in the beginning, like there's the whole conversation about twins, and yeah. But um, so so let's just to get in a little bit of background about this book. So, Christopher Priest, he had a linguistic and thematic fascination with the Victorian golden age of magic, as one does. He initially conceived the book as a thematic sequel to his earlier work back in the 80s, The Glamour, uh, seeking another word that captured uh word that captured hidden depth. He discovered the word prestige, and you know, associate its association with prestidigitation, which is like sleight of hand, and also inspired by the real life magician, which they mention in the book, and I think also in the movie, Ching Ling Fu. He's the guy who literally carried around the uh the fishbowl between his legs, which is why he walks funny, but literally lived his entire life like that, just to like so they wouldn't think that that's how he was holding it. Yeah, he he I mean, this is what we call committing to the bit for for his entire life, which is what these characters wind up doing, I think. More so in the movie, I feel, than in the the book.

Jen 9:32

No, I feel like in the book more, because in the book there's no Fallon.

Joe 9:37

Well, Borden, yes. Well, Borden, yes, for sure.

Jen 9:39

Yeah. The other one's just like hiding or so, just like doesn't exist in the world, as far as unless I'm I was missing something in another character, but doesn't exist when they're like switching off.

Joe 9:51

No, he's just hiding, he's just yeah, somewhere hiding, I guess. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that's what inspired Christopher Priest to write this. That the concept of total devotion to the trick became the emotional core of the character Alfred Borden. And that's what I feel like one of the differences is in the movie is that it feels like they're both totally committed to the bit, but in the book it's more Borden's totally committed to the trick and devoted to the trick. Because we know Angier is the Earl, uh uh Earl. Is he the Earl?

Jen 10:24

Caldlow.

Joe 10:25

Yeah. Well, they call him Caldlow in this, but he's like Calderdale in the book. I don't know why it's a good thing.

Jen 10:29

Well, I think it's like the place is Caldlow House. The place he lives is Caldlow House. He's like the Earl of Caldlow, but he's Lord Calderdale or something like that. Yeah. So that's kind of confusing.

Joe 10:40

You should just like we have to get a British person to explain it to us how that works.

Jen 10:45

And also, wait, was he British? Did he do a British accent after he well? That's another thing.

Joe 10:49

Well, I want to get to that. I have a note about that.

Jen 10:51

Couldn't figure it out.

Joe 10:52

I have a note about that later on when we get into the movie. Um, just the the journey of the publication of this, right? Unlike many other cult novels, this was like an immediate critical success. It was published in 1995. It won two awards, uh, rare literary double by winning the James Tate Black Memorial Prize and the World Fantasy Award. Um, and despite its complex structure, it was seen as priest breakthrough into literary mainstream. So this was a this book was again, I had no idea this was a book, yet I guess in 1995 I wasn't really reading a lot.

Tom 11:26

You aren't reading a lot about Victorian magicians?

Joe 11:30

No, no, only the only Victorian reading I had to do in 95 was probably uh I don't even know this is Victorian. No, I was I don't even know if this is Victorian, but I'm thinking of like the the Bronte sisters. That's probably pre-Victorian, right? That stuff?

Tom 11:46

Uh no, it's stuff I had to read for I think. I think it's right around the time.

Joe 11:51

Okay.

Tom 11:51

Victorian's like the late 1800s.

Joe 11:53

Uh so uh in 2001, there was a bidding a war, a bidding war for the rights to this film. Uh Sam Mendes was involved. However, Christopher Nolan was the one who was able to uh uh secure the rights. Uh actually, uh Christopher Priest was a a big fan of his first two movies, Memento and the following. And I think the seeing Memento and the way that that story's edited together and the different timelines, he thought it would be a great fit uh for Christopher Nolan and his brother Jonathan Jonathan Nolan, who obviously wrote it uh with Christopher Nolan. Um that nonlinear storytelling uh Priest was impressed by so he liked Nolan over that. So also uh Christopher Priest's children are twins, so I'm that must have inspired a little bit in there. They're actually triplets. So too soon. The rights were optioned in 2001. Nolan was sidetracked by Batman Begins. Um, so him and his brother Jonathan wrote the script intermittently over the next five years, uh, finally completing the draft in January of 2006.

Jen 13:00

Probably why they didn't remember anything that happened.

Joe 13:03

Yeah. Um and then production began just three days after they finished the draft.

Jen 13:10

So this looks good. Let's go.

Joe 13:12

Yeah.

Tom 13:12

Look, we're we're done. Let's start filming.

Joe 13:14

Well, they spent five years writing it.

Tom 13:15

So not the first draft, but the last one.

Jen 13:18

They just finished the first draft.

Tom 13:20

The shooting draft.

Joe 13:22

Yeah. Um go ahead, Tom. You want to say something?

Tom 13:26

No, I was just gonna say, I was joking aside. No one is like notorious for fitting finishing his films ahead of schedule and under budget because he's so conscious of what he needs and what he wants and how to do things efficiently. It doesn't really surprise me that it's like, okay, we're done. We're gonna start on Tuesday.

Joe 13:44

Yes.

Tom 13:45

Yeah.

Joe 13:46

Yeah, I guess so. Um, regarding casting, so Christian Bale wasn't Nolan's first choice. You know, having just done Batman Begins, he wanted to kind of avoid the overexposure there, but Bale was obsessive about being in this movie and eventually convinced Nolan that he was the only one who could understand Borden's purest mindset.

Tom 14:07

Okay, okay. I I buy that.

Joe 14:08

I feel like yeah, I feel like Christian Bale's probably got a bit of an obsessive like commit to the dedicate to the trick uh personality.

Tom 14:16

So right, this is him coming off of like he had done the machinist a few years before where he lost all that weight, and then he put on I remember like he had done the machinist and he came off of that to Batman Begins, and like originally he had put on like I think he got up to like 240 pounds, but it was like slab muscle. He looked like a like a 1980s wrestler. Yeah, like just you know, no definition, and like no one's like he can't look like that at all, he's gotta look like this, and so then he lost 20 pounds like and got completely different physique again. Like he's a maniac, and he's coming off of like peak maniacness during this period of time.

Joe 14:54

Yeah, if you've ever seen the machinist, he's like sickly. Yeah, yes, yeah. He's probably got like two one or two percent body fat in that movie. It's pretty it's a little disturbing to seeing him in that.

Tom 15:07

Yeah.

Joe 15:07

Um Hugh Jackman was cast as Ang Angier for his natural theat theatricality and stage presence, which I think I think he fit that role pretty well.

Jen 15:17

He looks so young.

Joe 15:19

I mean, that's 20 years ago, yeah.

Jen 15:21

Uh uh, he's like a baby almost so young.

Joe 15:24

I mean, Christian Bell looks so young too. He looks like a a baby as well.

Jen 15:27

He does, but I don't know why just Hugh Jackman looked younger to me than he does now, I guess.

Joe 15:31

Yeah. I I would agree with that. Um, David Bowie, cast as Nikola Tesla. He wanted Bowie because he he thought Bowie was a living enigma. Um and Bowie initially declined, but Nolan flew out to pitch him in person, arguing that no one else could play a man who quote seemed like he was from another planet. And that convinced Bowie. He said, I'm in. Um, so the budget.

Tom 15:56

Michael Kane's just terrific.

Joe 15:57

So we're just yeah, Michael Cain's just Christopher Nolan movie, so Michael Cain's in it to explain things and kind of push push the story in in directions. Yes. Um, yeah, I was when I was reading the book, I kept thinking of like, where's Michael Cain's character? I was like, Oh, they just he's just made up, but he's not totally made up. Like, there is a character cutter in the book, but he's not he's not that character so prominent in there. But he's just there to cut he's the Alfred again. He plays playing Alfred again.

Tom 16:24

Yeah, yeah. He's also playing uh Basil Exposition. Yeah, Austin Powers. He's just there, he's there to explain to the audience all the stuff that they should know or need to know.

Joe 16:34

Yeah, you know. Um, yeah, so I will say this. I really enjoyed this book. I didn't know where it was going. I did not expect that ending. I was confused a bit when we started off with Borden's diary, which wasn't really that much. Then we go back to like present day, and then we're just in Angier's diary for the rest of the story. And I'm like, are we ever gonna go back to Borden's diary? Like, I kind of wanted to like I was a little confused and maybe missing out there. I thought we were gonna jump back, but it was um it was definitely quite a story.

Jen 17:10

Yeah. Um, are you you have more research to read?

Joe 17:15

I don't know. Do I do you have more research to read?

Jen 17:17

No, there was something about um what they called the the the prestige materials, as they put it so d delicately in the book and in the movie actually, but that they're like the original body in the book doesn't he doesn't have to like kill himself because like preserves the body in some way, but he's like dead but not re I don't it it said something like it's a husk of a an empty husk or of some sort of what did it say? Wait, I gotta find what it exactly said. But it didn't seem it wasn't right to me, like what they were saying. Like it wasn't right. It just wasn't right. Hold on, let me look for the exact word that you had. Again, this is probably not no, that's the hobby. Spectral shells. Yeah, what does that mean? Spectral shells.

Tom 18:11

Yeah, ghostly. Like there's not a strong physicality to it.

Jen 18:15

No, not the not like the Wraith version. Like the body that not not in that in that case, there was like a very weak body and then like a Wraith-y kind of but every other time it was just like a like a dead, he was dead, and his body was like contorted, but then also didn't rot because at the end all the bodies were still there, like preserved.

Joe 18:38

Yeah, they were almost like non-organic material. I don't know. They there's really not a there's really not explanation in the book as to what those are. Like I didn't even and and one of the confusing things was because it's just assumed that, and I mean he says it, like he says it in his diary, you know, we're we're literally getting uh Angier's diary for the whole basic second half of the book. But I mean, he says that like he's being teleported, and then like it just leaves behind this, you know, corpse, this inorganic spectral shell.

Jen 19:17

It's not like creating another one of him. It is, it's like teleporting his soul and body out, and then the the original body is like I don't know if that's the it's his original body.

Joe 19:28

That's the one thing I was I wasn't sure about. I was like, well, how he keeps he's so sure that he's being teleported and it's leaving behind something else, where instead of like maybe he died, and the whatever's being teleported is a new is like a clone or a new version of the club.

Jen 19:45

I thought it was like the clone, it's the same thing in the movie, except he does he does it to himself. So like there's like the clone over here.

Tom 19:52

In in the movie, it's in my I'm sorry, in the movie it's clones. Very different. No, it's different, but I mean like the movie he murdered, he kills himself every night. Right. Yes. Right.

Jen 20:03

So as to not have two of him running around. Yes.

Tom 20:05

Not well, yes, but that's not why he kills himself every night. And this is where we're getting to the but this is goes back to like Joe's statement about like they have different tones. Like, I think people have really different takeaways about what like what Hugh Jackman is doing in this movie, like what the character is doing in this movie. But like I have a very passionate take on like what he what he is, yeah.

Joe 20:25

Yeah, I mean, in the in the book, right, they're they're kind of on equal footing, the two of them, where in the movie, I feel like they're taking I feel like you're on a roller coaster, right? First you're like, oh no, this is the good guy and this is the bad guy, then you're like, no, that's the bad guy and that's this is the good guy. Which the book does as well, but you in the book they kind of are on equal footing, I feel, in their their lines they cross.

Tom 20:45

Yeah, they're both just no nobody's there's no good people in the book. They're all just obsessive lunatics.

Jen 20:50

You're also in the movie trying to figure out like which one is the good boredom and which one is the bad boredon. Well, they're not good because I knew no, but like the good one is the one that's like married to the wife with the kids, the nice one. And then the other one that's like cheating on his wife, but not really.

Joe 21:05

He's not really cheating, though, because it's He's the one that gets killed at the end. Well, here's a conf I'm gonna jump to the end too because all right, because this part was confusing at the end, like as to which Borden was which, because right?

Jen 21:16

So No, I wasn't. I'll tell you why.

Joe 21:18

Well, no, no. The one who dies is the one um who loved uh Scarlet Johansson's character.

Jen 21:25

The one who lives That's his daughter.

Joe 21:27

But the Yeah, not yes. So so that's my question. So the one who didn't love Sarah is the father of the daughter?

Jen 21:35

No, no, no. Fallon I know it seems like he loves the daughter, but I think he just Because he wants to see her. He's like very obsessed with seeing his seeing his daughter when he's like I feel like he'd bond more with the kid, even if it's not his kid, than like a woman that he didn't love. So even if it's like his niece or something, which is No, I'm sorry.

Tom 21:56

No, I I I totally opposite The father gets killed.

Jen 22:01

How can they even know who the father is? That's true. Honestly. You're not going to be able to do it. Only one of them are sleeping with her father.

Tom 22:08

They know. Only one of them sleeps with her. But I don't know because she's it's said in the movie, it's very clear that sometimes he's cold and it's like they're not married at all. Yeah. And that's like that guy never sleeps with the biggest. Yes, I think they never.

Joe 22:22

And I love it. I love it.

Tom 22:23

But for him, I wouldn't sleep with my brother's wife. They're committing to the bit, Tom. They're committing to the bit of it. No, but they don't commit to the bit that they don't commit to the bit. In the movie, they do not emotionally cross a line. I think it's very hitting the microphone.

Joe 22:40

Please stop hitting the microphone.

Tom 22:42

I'm not hitting the microphone, but I'm I'm hitting the table next to the microphone.

Jen 22:45

I think that the guy that ends up with his daughter is the is the daughter. Is the father of the daughter. Okay. That was with Sarah.

Tom 22:52

I I don't have an idea. I I don't think so.

Joe 22:54

I think I think But you're saying that he never slept with her. So how is it?

Tom 22:58

I think the person who gets killed is the one who loves his wife. No, that is his daughter. No, he apologizes.

Jen 23:06

I'm so sorry. I never meant to hurt Sarah. I didn't want to hurt her. Yeah.

Joe 23:10

He makes it.

Jen 23:11

Yes, he's a he's just c really close. I think they're both just really close with the kid. I would say that. I mean, whatever. Because she's a beautiful little girl.

Tom 23:19

Yeah.

Jen 23:19

Um and also, like, there's a couple of things they do where um he's like one of them is like screaming about it, about the trick, you know, the new transported man. And then the other guy's like, all right, all right, just let's forget about it. Like, don't let's just not go there. You know, let's just forget it. We're not gonna go. And then the next scene is like that he's there. So that's why he's like, I'm sorry, you were right, I shouldn't have gone. We should have just forgot about it.

Tom 23:44

Oh, yeah.

Jen 23:45

So the the the more calm one is the one that's with Sarah. And the more crazy one is like the one that's with Olivia.

Tom 23:52

Okay.

Jen 23:53

Like when he's fighting with Sarah, and then Fallon picks up the little girl in the hallway and takes her away. That's her father, I think.

Joe 24:00

And he has to sit there and listen to his twin scream at his wife.

Jen 24:03

Right, right. Yeah. Right.

Joe 24:05

Yeah. I was trying to see if there were specific tells that like because I I wasn't paying attention enough, but I know Christian Bell would do something like this too, where he would. I'm sure there was some sort of affectation he was doing when he was each character uh as bored in, and I was trying to figure it out.

Jen 24:22

I think that I don't know which one it is, probably the bad one.

Joe 24:26

He's not bad. There's not a bad one or something.

Jen 24:28

I'm just gonna say bad and good. Good as a Sarah, bad is with Limited. Okay. But who ties the knot, and then when the other one is at the funeral and he asks him which knot did you tie, and he's like, I've been arguing with myself about this. Yes. I don't know. Like the one who tied the knot did not tell the other one what knot he tied. So he's actually like, I've been arguing with myself, which it seems like it would come right out of the book. He's like, I really don't know. Yes. Because he doesn't know what actually does not know what knot he tied.

Joe 24:54

Yeah. I mean, he does. Oh, there you go. Yeah, when I mean later on when Angier's reading Borden's diary, because this movie is the reading of a diary into another reading of another diary. Yeah.

Jen 25:06

It's like both diaries end with like, I know exactly where you'll be when you're reading this. Yes.

Joe 25:12

I think I think Christopher Nolan had his first uh dip into the movie Inception here because it's literally a diary within a diary we're getting with narration and a somewhat present-day storyline going on with Tesla. Um Yeah.

Jen 25:28

Begins right at the end.

Joe 25:29

Like Yes. I mean, the opening scene is all right. So I mean, the first big change is go ahead.

Jen 25:37

I was just gonna say, before we go into the movie, just like the last scene of the book where the guy goes into the crypt and like, what is he gonna do with the dead body of his like clone?

Joe 25:50

Of his clone?

Jen 25:51

Or is all of himself? I don't know. Like, what's he and why is that that person communicating with him telepathically for his whole life? Do you think was Angier hearing that from all of those like spectral husks? Like, why would that one be able to talk to him?

Joe 26:09

He doesn't put it in his diary.

Jen 26:11

Yeah, I don't know. And like the dad just like chucks the kid into like what are they what were they fighting about? Like he wanted to see the machine and then like he was like, get in, and you don't want to, I'll throw your kid in. See he works.

Joe 26:22

Oh, you know what I pictured? I pictured the scene in Anchorman with Jack Black punts uh what's his the dog? That's what that's what I was picturing picturing. I was picturing Jack Black being the the the dad and just throwing the little kid into the machine.

Jen 26:36

So he takes the the dead body out, and then like outside in the hallway, there's like another kid just standing like well, wherever he was teleported to, yeah. Yeah. But but he was adopted, but did he did the dad find him, or was he like teleported to no like somewhere and then he was a he was like picked up? I don't remember exactly.

Joe 26:54

I don't know.

Jen 26:55

They don't they don't say they don't they don't just end with him like holding this weird dead body, like what and then like who came out? That was like the Wraith version of him?

Joe 27:03

Yes.

Jen 27:03

Who said he like I could I keep trying to kill myself and like I can't?

Joe 27:07

Well, he tried to teleport himself into his. Oh, that's right.

Jen 27:10

Did that ha did that work?

Joe 27:12

Well, I clearly didn't. It clearly didn't. He assumes that he's gonna tell and I mean we're like way off, like I'm sorry.

Jen 27:19

I just talked about the end of the book.

Joe 27:21

Yes, in the end of the book, he he tries, he does all the calculations and he's like, I'm going to go into the machine and teleport myself into my dead body.

Jen 27:30

Yeah.

Joe 27:31

I don't know if he would have left a husk behind. I don't, there was no explanation about that. But no, by back into the body that he's he assumed by doing that he would just be dead. He would become dead like his the other part of his body. Um, but it seems like he wasn't. He was just living forever as a wraith inside the uh inside the So that was a real body that he was walking around in. It wasn't like it was that it was the Wraith. No, it was the Wraith.

Jen 27:54

Was the Wraith inside a the husk again? Or was the Wraith?

Joe 27:59

I don't know. I think it was just the Wraith. Because he mentions about the light, like he could barely see him, and then when the light hit him, and it was I was reading that.

Jen 28:07

I'm like, I'm this is a horror movie right now. Like all the bodies, and then like they're all labeled by like the day that they felt that they were created, or it's very meticulous about that.

Joe 28:17

He labeled all of his corpses.

Jen 28:19

I didn't get it at first when they were going down into the crib with the prestige materials. Oh, I was like, these are the bodies, there's gotta be the bodies. And then I was like, oh my god, he got all the bodies down here.

Joe 28:28

Well, I feel like this. Okay, so apparently, like these words, the per the the um the pledge, the turn and the prestige were made up by Christopher Priest.

Tom 28:38

Yeah.

Joe 28:38

Like these weren't like magic terms, and he made these up, and then they actually became part of the magic vernacular.

Jen 28:45

That's cool. That's cool.

Joe 28:46

Um, but yeah, that that's one thing I was thinking about, right? So the prestige. Let's just take it from the title. I feel like in the book, the prestige is referring to the corpses.

Jen 28:58

Yeah, or like the the wraith, even is like the pre like what it turns the end. Yeah, the corpses are the prestige materials. Yeah. But like the guy is the prestige, like the the the new guy. Well, no, no.

Joe 29:10

The prestige is technically in the book, the the Wraith is the one that gets teleported, right? Because he's came in.

Jen 29:16

So he's the prestige.

Joe 29:18

No, but the prestige they refer to in the book as the the the corpses, which are the ones that would be have have gone into the machine and dropped through the traffic.

Jen 29:27

That's what they call the prestige materials.

Joe 29:30

Yeah.

Jen 29:30

Not the prestige.

Joe 29:32

Like the con like the like the I think the prestige materials is just a way of saying the prestige.

Jen 29:39

I don't know. I thought I thought it was like something that came out of the prestige.

Joe 29:41

I don't think the book was left over. The book would have been titled uh The Prestige Materials would have been the title.

Jen 29:47

No, it's that's like uh what's that author of the Brown?

Joe 29:51

Robert Lovell.

Jen 29:52

No, the Robert Lovell. The Prestige Materials. No, I don't know. I thought that like the guy was the prestige. Like the guy the last the man living forever.

Tom 30:02

I mean, right, that's the that's what the prestige is. It's it's the surprise after the after the trick. Yeah.

Joe 30:08

Well, I feel like in the movie the prestige is more of like here's the re like the reveal. Right.

Jen 30:12

Yeah.

Joe 30:13

But I feel like the book the prestige is referring to the the material the prestige materials.

Jen 30:18

Well either way, but yeah, in the movie it's definitely just the prestige.

Joe 30:23

Yeah.

Jen 30:23

Like the end of the trick, not the because it's the movie, obviously. The prestige. That's what they do.

Tom 30:31

It's how movie ends.

Joe 30:33

Um opening scene. Right, so this the the format of this movie is odd, which um the book is also odd, but I right we've got this whole the Tesla storyline going on, like kind of in I guess it's supposed to be like present day time.

Jen 30:48

Well, no, because we already Well, what is the beginning the future then?

Joe 30:53

No, it's supposed that's present day, and I feel like everything else is going back, it's it's the diaries, right?

Jen 30:58

Then everything No, but like the very beginning you see him drowning in the tank. That's like how the movie opened.

Joe 31:03

Oh, that's right. I'm sorry, yes, yes. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Jen 31:06

And the and the trial and everything. Michael Cain saying that he killed him and he's on trial. That's all made up. And then it goes to Tesla.

Joe 31:12

That's that was all made up for sure.

Jen 31:14

Yeah.

Joe 31:15

That's why that's what I'm saying. Like the tone of the messages movies is so different because in the book, he's not killing himself every time he performs the trick. He's not killing a clone or a piece of himself or a part of himself. And he's not, he doesn't have he doesn't set up boredon to be arrested and accused of his murder.

Jen 31:34

Right. Well, he k he like scares him to death, basically. One of the guys, right?

Joe 31:39

Like, yes, which is not intentional. No, I feel like a lot of the things that happen in the book aren't intentional. Some of them are clearly intentional, but still the movie too.

Jen 31:49

It starts out with like him basically murdering someone that well, that's another that's another big thing, right?

Joe 31:55

So it starts off the two of them are like friends, basically. They both work for the same magician, who by the way is um what's his face, who's actually a real magician and was a consultant on this movie. Uh-huh. Ricky J.

Tom 32:07

Ricky J.

Joe 32:08

Yeah. Um, he was the magician in the beginning that they're both working for. He's he's an actual magician. He's also an actor, but he consulted on the movie. Um and all of the magic that was performed, like all of like the sleight of hand and all that stuff that Jackman and uh and Bale did was real. There were no camera tricks. They were actually trained to do those tricks.

Jen 32:29

That was cool.

Joe 32:30

Yeah. But yes, so they're friends in the beginning of the movie, like working for the magician, and you know, I guess looking to go out on their own. Um and uh what's her jewel uh Piper Parabo or Parabo. I don't know how do you pronounce her last name?

Jen 32:45

I don't know. One of those ways.

Joe 32:47

Is she British in real life? I don't even know. No, she's born in Dallas. Okay, I didn't think so, but then you never know sometimes when you hear people with British accents, is already married with Hugh Jackman. Right. And then she dies, which is another big difference from the book. Like, she's in the book, like the entire book, basically. For most for a good chunk of the book. In this, nope, she's dead. So so they change it from Angier doing like fake seances with Julia, who he's uh I guess he is married to at that time when they're doing the fake seances, and Borden being at one of those fake seances, saying, like, oh, this is all the ruse, this is fake, and pushing pushing Julia down to no, he acts he kills her by tying a knot and trapping her, which is a well he he he he causes a miscarriage, though. He does, which is very interesting because you get you first hear that story from Borden's diary, and then you find out later and I'm like, I remember when I was reading it when you get it from Andrew Diary, I was like pregnant, and like oh no, she's pregnant. She's gonna have a miscarriage.

Jen 33:54

I pushed her, and I'm like, okay, that's not very nice. And then I'm like, there's a like, oh, that's why he pushed her.

Joe 34:01

Well, I mean, that's not why he pushed her.

Jen 34:03

No, I mean that's why in the book he pushed her so that he could call, you know.

Joe 34:06

Right. That's a reason that's why you can just show the woman. No, yeah. Right, yeah. Yeah, because he doesn't, and he never finds I don't think he ever finds out that she was pregnant and had a miscarriage because that scene happened that happens, and then all of a sudden, Angier starts like coming to his shows and ruining his his show. And Borden's like, this is a little bit much.

Jen 34:27

Well, he I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Joe 34:30

Right. But in the in the movie, it's like, no, no, you killed you, you probably caused the death of my wife.

Jen 34:35

Well, they try to kill then he tries to kill him in the movie, which I feel like is makes more sense. Yes, like I mean, you killed my wife, so I'm gonna try to kill you.

Joe 34:43

Yes, it escorts her.

Jen 34:44

He comes in, puts a bullet right in the gun, and like he's planning on killing it. And both of them, neither one of them can recognize each other. They come up to each other's shows like five times with a fake beard.

Joe 34:54

Yes, they clearly it's clearly them. The camera pans up and it's yeah, it's Hugh Jackman. It's like, yeah. How did the how did that beard for fool anybody? I don't know. Um and I forgot that I didn't realize, and I didn't remember that Angier and uh uh Julia are already married because when they come up on stage to do help with the trick, he kisses her leg, and I'm like, what the fuck is he doing? He's just like kissing her. I knew they were dating.

Jen 35:24

I forgot I forgot they were married though.

Joe 35:27

Uh well in the book they're not married at this point. They're I think they I thought you know they they're still like uh she's his first assistant, right? And then they fall in love. She helps him make his create his magical act and everything. She helps him build his magical act and kind of um you know helps him.

Jen 35:43

Yeah, and then he cheats on her when he goes to America with Olivia. Yeah.

Joe 35:49

Yeah. So then I'm also wondering, I'm also wondering why Hugh Jackman has an American accent in this movie.

Tom 35:55

Yeah.

Joe 35:56

And why then, and oh and conversely, why Scarlett Johansson has a British accent because she's supposed to be American in the book. And I'm like, why are they doing this?

Jen 36:05

I think that I think when he came out at the end and was like the Lord, I was trying to figure out if he had a British accent then because maybe she says, like, I'm trying to hide, I don't want anybody to know who I am and my family, I don't want my family to be embarrassed, so he just pretends to be American.

Tom 36:20

Yeah. Like you f it's supposed to be a huge reveal that like he is also the entire time that you have known him in the film, not who he appears to be. He's just a completely different person and is pretending to be someone who he is not the entire time that you see them.

Joe 36:35

But there's a weird I have a note here too, somewhere about that.

Tom 36:39

Um but there's like a little but there it it doesn't it's a less insane thing.

Joe 36:43

It's a normal thing that people do when it's what was what was the the movie almost makes it seem like he literally took on an American persona, became this magician, did all this stuff just to get bored in, which is not really the best.

Tom 37:01

I mean he did it to be a to be the best in the world, yeah. And he just didn't want to.

Joe 37:05

Yeah, I know, but they don't there's nothing to support that except him at the end saying it.

Jen 37:10

No, he says it to her, like my family. I'm because she's like, You're not being who you to Piper Parabot. Oh, does it say who you all really are or something. And she's like, Oh, my family, I don't want to embarrass my family with my all this magic stuff. Oh, yeah, she tells it to become the great Danton. Yeah.

Joe 37:29

Yes. I forgot. Oh wow, I forgot about that. I guess that's why I was like, I totally forgot about that conversation.

Jen 37:34

And then he could have just been like a different British guy, but he just wanted to take on like a whole Yeah.

Tom 37:41

Again, it's much more like other humans have done this, yeah. But like it's the same, like he's creating an entirely different life, so no one can tie it back to who he really is.

Joe 37:51

Even though he doesn't really ever change his name. I mean, they changed his name in the movie from Rupert to Robert.

Jen 37:57

But they call him Robert in the movie. Some people call him Robbie, yeah.

Joe 38:01

They call him Robbie, not Robert, but um yes. So I don't know. Yeah, I guess they just thought Rupert was a silly name. I don't, I don't know.

Tom 38:11

Yeah, I think it's probably it.

Jen 38:12

They call him Angier anyway, mostly through the whole movie.

Joe 38:15

Yes. But yes, I was very confused about why Scarlett Johansson was doing a British accent. Like I sometimes I'm like, why? Yeah, like why couldn't she just be American? Was it because he was doing the American accent? And they were like, well, we don't want both of them to be American.

Jen 38:29

Because then you have to explain why she's American.

Joe 38:31

Aaron Ross Powell Well, she's from America.

Jen 38:33

That's why she's No, but in the book, he goes to America, meets her, and brings her back. Like, why is she there? It just made more sense to just have her be British. Yeah. They didn't get into that whole thing.

Joe 38:44

So No, no, they definitely didn't get into all of that. I forgot Roger Reese was in this movie. I was pleasantly reminded. That was pretty cool.

Jen 38:52

I have a note about two Andy Circus movies in a row.

Joe 38:56

Yes. I remembered Andy Circus was in this. He does an American accent.

Jen 39:00

Yes, yes.

Joe 39:01

Well, he's from America in the movie, so that makes sense. I we talked about this, you know, when we're talking about the book, but the Chinese magician, I love how they included that into this. And that kind of sets the stage, no pun intended, um, for the fact that, you know, we've got two guys here who are gonna commit to the bit.

Tom 39:22

I I it's uh one of the things that I like about uh Nolan and the way that he kind of constructs his his films and things like this, when you re-watch it, there's no cheat. Right? And like it's laid out for you, there's clues throughout, like you were saying, Jen, about like the screaming and whatever. And I think, Joe, to your to your earlier point, I think it's just you know, Fallons up here and and and like like that they have different emotional tones, and that's how you can tell them apart. Yeah, who's angrier or who's more tense. But like, um yeah, like here you go. They're telling you right up front, like any good magic trick, here's how it's done. We're telling you how it's done. And all you have to do is realize that's what you're watching, you know.

Joe 40:01

Yeah, I mean that that's probably that's one of the first clues. Uh, I mean, there's earlier ones, I think, probably. Um but this is definitely one of the first clues. And then there's uh right after this when uh I think it when the uh the magician does the trick with the bird, when Borden's assisting him when he first meets his wife, and the bird gets killed and he pulls out another bird, right there. That's that's what happens later on with Hugh Jackman's character, right? That's the exact thing that happens.

Jen 40:29

Um also um the kid's like, Where's his brother?

Joe 40:34

Yes.

Jen 40:34

You know, he's like, Oh, you're very, very smart.

Joe 40:37

Yeah. Oh, oh, I have a question, and I'm I'm jumping because actually this comes up like shortly after this, but um when he goes on the date with Sarah and he's taking her back, and you know, he makes the joke, which is kind of which is kind of creepy, like when he points to the lock and he's like, You think this is gonna can keep me out? Like, which is borderline like um and then he's in the apartment. Is that is that the twin, or did he really sneak into the apartment?

Jen 41:03

No, he was waiting in her apartment the whole time. So that's the one I want to ask.

Joe 41:06

So he takes her out on a date and he's like, All right, listen, just I'm gonna take her out on a date. I want you to sneak into her apartment and sit there and wait for us.

Jen 41:14

And then he runs down the stairs to get the one that's outside. Like before she What if she let him in the apartment then?

Joe 41:21

What would happen? Would the other one have to sneak out of the apartment?

Tom 41:25

No, he wouldn't go in. He'd have to like, oh like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe 41:29

Okay, okay. I'm just picturing the one brother like sitting in the apartment for like two hours, three hours, waiting for them to come home the whole time.

Tom 41:37

That's it. Anything for uh anything for the impression.

Joe 41:41

Commit to the bit.

Jen 41:42

Then how they have to like his fingers off, and the wife's like, it's it's like it's just it's like it's fresh, it's bleeding like the day it happened.

Joe 41:49

Yes, because they just did it. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen in the book. There's no cutting of fingers off.

Jen 41:57

No.

Joe 41:58

Um with a chisel, too.

Jen 42:00

Yeah, oh my god.

Joe 42:01

Uh committing to the bit. That's the that's a good thing.

Tom 42:04

Yeah, doing it at home, I guess. I guess it's the best tool.

Jen 42:07

But it's also like does he do that? I'm trying to remember because we jump around so much. After Scarlett Johansson says, take off the gloves so everyone knows that you're not using a double. Is that when the other guy cuts his fingers off?

Joe 42:21

No, no, it's when he sh gets shot. When when Andrew shooters him and he cuts his fingers off, he shoots his fingers off. No, I know.

Jen 42:28

But then why are they wearing padded gloves? Why is he wearing a padded glove? Why is he glad to be glad to be glad he wants to be? I almost feel like she suggested like taking the.

Tom 42:37

No, I know that.

Jen 42:38

Right. So that's why. I'm thinking she said I can't remember when in the story you see the white.

Tom 42:44

They both have they both have to be Fallon.

Joe 42:46

No, I think what Jen saying at first did he just hide that his fingers were missing and then.

Tom 43:00

They have to look the same. I thought they were. Either one of them has to be either one of them. I mean, at any point. I thought that too.

Jen 43:05

But that comment doesn't make sense for her to say that. Um, she was like, because then he would be like, I already, I already did like you know what I mean? Like he already had that thought. But I don't know. I get I get both, I get both.

Tom 43:19

I think that's a misdirect for the audience, like the first time viewering audience more than anything else.

Jen 43:25

Yeah, maybe.

Joe 43:26

I also think that it's a um, right, when he's Fallon, he's supposed to not have supposed to have fingers.

Jen 43:35

So he was he's always like bundled up.

Joe 43:38

It could be that he when he changed from Fallon back into Borden, he didn't he forgot to take off his glove and his padded thing, you know, that could have been like a slip up of his own.

Tom 43:47

Yeah, I don't know. Oh, okay.

Joe 43:50

Um, but I think it's just another clue to to what's really going on because she she's also saying what she would say, right? Like, if you show that you don't have two fingers and you you when you're doing your trick. The person who comes out also doesn't have the two fingers, it's more convincing.

Tom 44:11

I remember uh listening to an interview with Penn and Taylor where like they were saying uh what Pen was saying, by the way. Um although Taylor does talk about interviews now. But anyway, they were saying how part of how you are successful at at magic is spending so much time and expense and energy on faking someone that faking something that like no one would think any sane person would actually do. So like it doesn't make a difference how complicated and how intricate like it is to get the most simple effect to happen. Like that's what being a good magician is is like you could be that insane to do that. I mean, obviously this is actually insane, but you know like it's it's it's that it's it's it's having such complete obsession and commit commitment to making this happen that nobody would expect that that that anybody would do that.

Jen 45:03

I think it's fun. I think it's funny too in the movie that like when you first meet him, he's like, No, we're not ready. I'm not ready to do that trick yet. So like they've been living like this for years in preparation for the time when he'll be ready to do this particular magic trick.

Joe 45:19

That didn't make any yeah, that didn't make any sense. I I thought that was a little bit that was a little bit of poor writing on their part with they've clearly been committing to this bit for this long where they were just waiting specifically for the right time to to do the trick. Like yeah, they were just biding their time the whole I don't know. Right. It didn't that didn't seem realistic, whereas everything else in the movie did.

Tom 45:42

Yes.

Joe 45:43

Absolutely, yeah.

Tom 45:45

100% factual.

Joe 45:46

Yeah, I mean this the the movie escalates much quicker for sure than the books, because the book kind of like goes over years and years and years, and there's like little bits and like there's ebbs and flows to their rivalry. Um we meant you mentioned that you know Angier goes to America for a while, so he's not even around. Um, and then he gets he picks up uh Scarlet Johansson, uh Olive Olivia. I keep saying Olive. Olivia Well, it's Olive.

Jen 46:12

In the book, it's either Olive and then she changes it to Olivia when she goes to Borden. She does, right? Or it's the other way around. I can't remember. Yeah, she changes the name. It's not like uh it's not like in the movie, was she?

Joe 46:23

Well, her Wenscomb is like her her mother's maiden name, I think she winds up says she uses when she goes over to Borden. Um there's an interesting so in the book, right? We we when we meet Olive or Olivia Wenscomb, we don't know who she is yet, right? Because we we won't we're getting bored inside of the story.

Jen 46:47

Yeah.

Joe 46:47

And she shows up for an audition and he mentions he it's very weirdly worded, but it's because you know he's twins. He says, like, I he's like, I was there, and this person was there, and he says, but I wasn't there, and then he said, but I then I slept with her. He like it's very confusing. He's like, I was there, I wasn't there, and I slept with her.

Tom 47:07

Yeah. Right.

Joe 47:08

And if you didn't know, if you hadn't seen the movie or know like what the you know, the twist is or whatever, it's like, what the what's going on here? I don't understand this. It doesn't make any sense. I thought it was like miss. I literally thought it it could potentially have been like a like a typo.

Jen 47:25

Well, they also like they would like cut away from one brother writing and then the other brother would write. Like, we can't, we're not ready to he said you was gonna tell, you know, I said I was gonna tell you about this, but I'm not gonna tell you about it right now. And then the other one would come back and be like, I ag I I've decided, you know, that we're not gonna do whatever. They would just like argue in the pages of the journal.

Joe 47:45

Yeah, yeah. So, and I mean, we didn't we didn't talk about this at all, but it's not in the movie. But like one big thing that they cut out of the movie is this this book starts in like present day.

Jen 47:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 47:59

And it's it's it's this one character who is a descendant of Borden. He's a Borden, but he's uh he's an orphan, right? He doesn't know, or he's been he was adopted, if I remember correctly, right? And he's always had the sense that he's had a twin and whatever, but he's never found any evidence of it. And he gets a book sent to him, and he he goes to this, uh he's supposed to be covering a story. He's like a reporter or journalist, and he's going to cover a story, and he meets this woman who's a descendant of Angier, and she's the one who sent him the book, and she's trying to kind of like unravel all of this um all of this stuff that's that she's uncovered with her family and the diaries, and and then she tells like it could then it goes into Borden's diary, and then it goes back to present day, and the woman Kate, uh Angier's relative, um, tells a story about when she was a kid, how you know Borden came to the house with the little kid, he would have been about your age. She tells a story that you mentioned before about the machine, and the her father throws the kid into the machine, and the kid dies, quote unquote. But we learn later on, obviously, he didn't die, he got teleported, and uh that character's not a twin. He's he's the prestige, he's the prestige?

Jen 49:12

Yeah. Oh, maybe he's the pr maybe that's what it means about him. He's the prestige.

Joe 49:18

Yeah. Um, but they decided not to put any of that in the movie.

Jen 49:20

Yeah, I wouldn't have wanted to see like the grotesque, grotesquely posed corpse of a two-year-old. Like, I'm kind of not sad that they didn't put that part in the movie.

Joe 49:32

I mean, that part, yes, but all all of the other like present day stuff. I feel like whenever there's movies or books that are starting the present day and are flashbacks, they like the m adaptations always cut the present day.

Tom 49:45

Yeah, you don't you don't need it. It's just it's just a story device to help people get into the story. The movie could just be set in that time.

Joe 49:53

Because there's so many mysteries going on in the book, although it's all leading up to one main mystery, but still. I guess there's well, there's two main mysteries, right? There's the mystery of Gordon and his his trick, and then there's the mystery of Angier and his version of the trick, which are both two bonkers stories, and then obviously there's the present-day mystery of I don't remember what his name is. Alex is it Alex or Andrew or something like that? I can't remember the characters.

Jen 50:19

But it's Nikki is the kid's what's the little boy's name? I know that.

Joe 50:22

Yes. Little Nikki. Turn the Pepsi into Coke. Uh, is this do you want to wrap it up here?

Tom 50:27

And yeah, there's a good pod spot uh in this uh this episode on a bad little Nikki reference.

Joe 50:31

Yeah. Oh, we can't end on a little Nikki reference, can we?

Tom 50:34

We just did.

Joe 50:35

We just did it. All right, goodbye. Peace out. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, join us over in Discord to continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe. Rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes for this episode. Thanks everyone for listening, and to hear us next time.