Jen 0:00

Last time on shelf to screen.

Joe 0:02

They're like, oh, we can't beat them. Argo's like, well, we can we can draw them out and give Frodo a chance. And he's explaining the whole plan. He goes up with the Legolas and he's like, a diversion.

Jen 0:12

Like, yep.

Joe 0:13

I was like, thank you, Legolas, for making it simple for us, idiots who didn't know what was going on. It's part two of Return of the King. Do you know what that means?

Tom 0:39

No. No.

Joe 0:40

It's time for our film frame collectible check-in.

Tom 0:47

Right. So do you uh I guess for you listening or watching, uh, the the the tension for this is like, is are the scenes on our collectibles from part one of this episode, or will they be covered in part two of this episode?

Joe 1:02

Or can we even see what they are? Which seems to be my problem. Now I've looked at mine beforehand to be ready for this, and it looks like it's Eowyn um and Mary standing somewhere. Uh, and there's somebody in the foreground, and part of his hair is in the shot. So maybe this is maybe this is Aragorn.

Jen 1:24

Somebody, maybe it's the the hair on Aomer's horse helm. Joe, no. No. First, so it's not even on the camera.

Tom 1:33

No, it's all green and blue. It's not that's not you can't say that. But if I'm behind it. Nope.

Joe 1:40

Doesn't help. Wait, wait.

Jen 1:41

No.

Tom 1:43

A white, a white sheet of paper. Yeah, try that. No, that's literally black. It's a black screen.

Joe 1:51

Alright, wait, wait, wait. Let's keep trying this. Those of you just listening to us, I apologize. Profusely.

Tom 1:58

We cut from the audio version of this podcast. Alright. Alright, okay. That's actually a little bit better. It does look like the cover of uh like a 1970s rock band, not any scene from the film.

Joe 2:15

Wait, who is I think that's Pippin there on the well, I want to say I'm sorry, Mary, and then and then I think that's Aowin. Well, maybe it's AMR.

Jen 2:26

I don't I don't know.

Joe 2:26

Well, whatever. Tom, what do you got?

Tom 2:28

Is that AMR telling Mary that he can't go because he's uh too small to ride on his own, but too big to ride with another man? Um I have Gandalf and Pippen leaving Edorus. Oh, on Shadow Facts on Shadow Facts. Yeah.

Joe 2:45

Nice.

Tom 2:46

Yeah.

Joe 2:46

This is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big andor small screen. I am Joe Paladin.

Jen 2:56

I'm the Witch King of Staten Island, Isgrove.

Tom 3:01

And I am Shadow Tom, Lord of the Horses.

Joe 3:04

Oh. I should have gone for Per Peregrine Joe.

Tom 3:11

Joe Grenperry.

Joe 3:13

Joe Grenperry. Can we just take a moment to just discuss how cool it is that that Pippin's father's name is Paladin?

Tom 3:22

That is pretty cool.

Joe 3:23

Peregrine son of Paladin? That's just so cool.

Tom 3:26

Tom Son of Tom. That's not that yeah.

Joe 3:30

We are continuing. Uh we're wrapping it up, actually. The Lord of the Rings, right? We're on part two of the Return of the King. Um, if you if you're just listening to this episode, uh, you just jumped right into the middle of the podcast catalog because I don't know, you're a psychopath. Who does that?

Jen 3:49

Welcome.

Tom 3:50

Maybe this is your favorite number. Maybe this is your favorite number. And you're like, I'm gonna start with this episode. I got a good vibe about it. 26.

Joe 3:57

Let me start off. Let me start on part two of the third bookslash movie in a trilogy.

Tom 4:05

If there was maybe maybe this is their favorite part of the whole trilogy, it's the second half of Return of the King. We already talked about that. If that's true, who knows what we're gonna cover in this episode? Because in part one, we touched every bit and piece.

Joe 4:23

If you're expecting this to be the second half of the Return of the King movie slash book, sorry. We talked about most of that in the first episode.

Tom 4:32

We'll do some of the middle and probably some of the beginning and end again. Who knows?

Joe 4:36

Serves you right. Now go back and listen to the first episode in the series, at least. Right? The first episode covering the uh Fellowship of the Ring.

Tom 4:45

That's what I would do.

Joe 4:46

Or more I would say just go back to the first episode of the podcast and listen through all of the episodes. It'll build up the uh excitement when you get to the Lord of the Rings because you'll be thinking about it and waiting for it.

Tom 4:58

And then when you get back to this point, you'll just laugh, go, oh, I remember.

Joe 5:02

Oh, they were talking to me. They were talking about me in this in this part. Yeah.

Tom 5:06

But now they're talking about somebody else.

Joe 5:08

Yes, because I'm no longer that person.

Tom 5:10

Okay. It's like, let it die. Let it die.

Joe 5:16

Sorry. Uh it was Tom's fault. He kept going. Uh we left off. We did leave off at like a spot in the movie, by the way. Yes. Um, sorry, Aragorn and Gimli Legolis were just headed down the paths of the dead without the sons of Elrond and without the uh Dunadine who come, the other Dunadine. They cut those people out of the book.

Jen 5:41

Not important. No need.

Joe 5:44

Why would we want to bring elves back? I don't understand that.

Tom 5:47

Look, we got some elv action in this movie, but not here. Well nobody does anything. There's no need to have them around.

Joe 5:54

They just help fight, yeah.

Tom 5:56

Yeah.

Joe 5:57

Um, they you get some reaction shots of them while they're walking down the path to the dead. Yeah. And the most disappointing cut from the entire movie, Prince Imrahil.

Tom 6:08

Oh, yes.

Jen 6:10

That's who I was thinking of when we were talking, and I said Imla I called him Imladrus, which is close, but I was confusing him with Erkenbrand. So I was just all over the place. But this is Prince Imrahil.

Joe 6:24

Yeah. Um, yeah. Big mistake cutting him. No, no, he's really not important. He's just there. He's just a guy, another like he's a prince who has a lot of soldiers with him and fight as I guess is part of Gondor. He's like from another city in Gondor.

Tom 6:37

I guess. I'm not even sure where he's from.

Joe 6:40

He's from uh Dol Amroth?

Tom 6:43

Amroth? I guess I've never cited the map enough to know where Dol Amroth is, I guess.

Jen 6:48

Is there a king of Dol Amroth?

Tom 6:50

Well, that's because he can't be from Gondor. There's one king of Gondor. If there's a Prince of Gondor, why wouldn't that guy be kidding?

Joe 6:57

He wouldn't be a prince. So Dol Amroth must be another kingdom. I think it's another kingdom.

Jen 7:01

Maybe maybe his first name is Prince, and his last name is Imrahil.

Joe 7:05

Oh.

Tom 7:06

He's just a guy. Like Per like Perrin's dad wasn't a Paladin. He's just named Paladin.

Jen 7:10

He's just confusing him.

Tom 7:12

Um Prince Imrahil is important enough to be one of the people who make a decision about what to do next in the books.

Joe 7:19

Well, he's got a big he's also like in command of a lot of men as well. I think that's and he's a prince. So but I don't actually don't see I'm a prince. I actually don't see oh there's Dol Amrith. Okay, Dol Amroth is so it's very weird because there's Gondor. Yeah, right? If you if you pull up your map of Middle Earth, people pull up your map of Middle Earth, or flip to the front of the book, right? Gondor is like straight south of Rohan and Isengard, but Minus Tirith is all the way over east of that, and then there's South Gondor below that, and in between both of those is Belfilas, which I don't know if it's his own kingdom, and then there's Dol Amrith, which is right there on the water. Um, yeah. So I don't know if that's part of Gondor or not, because there's a Gondor above it and a Gondor below it.

Jen 8:10

Where is Oh, it's really tiny.

Tom 8:12

Yeah, I think it's an island kingdom of its own.

Joe 8:15

It's not an island, but it's on it's like a peninsula. Um but I don't yeah, I don't know if it's like Belifast is its own kingdom that's like snuggled in between Gondor and South Gondor.

Jen 8:28

But it doesn't get those big nice letters that are other other kingdoms.

Tom 8:33

Belfallus?

Joe 8:35

It's a smaller kingdom, probably. That's why that's all I thought.

Tom 8:38

Yeah, I would say it's its own place. Like the Room. Like back in the day, that was all Gondor.

Joe 8:45

Well, that's what I was wondering. It's like weird because it's in between, and and I guess is South Gondor, it says Harod Harandor. I wonder if that's ruled not by Gondor anymore. Because I know, right, the Harad are in this movie, and uh there's a bunch of bad dudes. Those are the guys I think on the Olafons.

Tom 9:02

Well, that's Harad With, that's south of South Gondor.

Joe 9:05

But if you look at South, what's the South Gondor in parentheses? It says Harondor.

Tom 9:09

Yeah, but Harad Waith is south of South Gondor.

Joe 9:12

Yeah, and then there's near Harod and far Harod, yeah.

Jen 9:15

And there's Do you guys want to hear what the internet is saying about this?

Tom 9:19

Yeah, what's on the what's on the what's on the webs?

Jen 9:22

Prince Imrahil is a prince, but his title functions as a territorial ruler rather than meaning he is the son of a king. Imrahil is the 22nd prince of Dol Amroth, an autonomous principality located within the southern fiefdoms of Gondor. And it says it's a sovereign territory, but he hold while he holds total authority over his own lands, he owes ultimate allegiance to the crown of Gondor and the stewards in the king's absence.

Joe 9:47

Okay, yeah, well that makes sense because he's he's there. He comes and supports them. Jen, when you said you want to know what the internet is saying about this, I thought you were gonna you were getting into a joke to tell me and Tom to shut up and stop talking about this.

Jen 10:00

The internet says shut up.

Joe 10:02

Yes. Let's move on. Anyway, where were we? We were back at the paths of the dead. We we trailed off.

Tom 10:08

So so one of the things like watching the film, I always get surprised by it because you see the paths of the dead, and it's all dark and mysterious, and all the horses are afraid, and then they go in and they disappear into darkness, and then the next time it's like the brightest. Yeah.

Joe 10:24

They're outside.

Jen 10:26

Yeah.

Joe 10:26

Again.

Jen 10:27

Oh, it's just one little entrance that was down.

Joe 10:30

It was just the way the sun was hitting it, and it was just yeah.

Jen 10:34

Yeah, the horses just run away.

Tom 10:36

Well, then like then, like an evil dead presence like comes out, and the camera gets all crazy.

Jen 10:41

But that's a different door, though.

Tom 10:42

Yeah, at the at the at the far end of the path. Yeah.

Joe 10:46

Yes, when they finally go underground and Gimli makes the comment, like an oh, gimmick's going underground where it's scared. Yeah, the paths to the dead. Um it's uh it's okay the scene. I'm not too keen on it. I mean, even in the book, it's a little it's not necessarily the greatest. It's just such a weird side side quest.

Tom 11:06

It is very odd. And I imagine this is this again is like drawing on some sort of like some sort of mythological thing that that that Tolkien wanted to get in. Um, but it is. It's very I always felt it was like a very odd thing. I like in the movie, they're just like, there are not enough men to win this army. There's no way you can win without getting these ghost warriors.

Jen 11:26

Well, I that's how it is in the book, too. Well, the ghost warriors don't come to the battle of Pelor Fields, they just take over the ships.

Joe 11:35

That's true.

Jen 11:35

So, like, when they come to the battle and they're running over everything, it's like, why don't you guys just come a little earlier and nobody would have had to die? Then you guys could have just like gone off to Mordor taking care of all those orcs.

Tom 11:46

Well, Gimli Gimli does suggest it. He's like, why would you release them where you're gonna be?

Jen 11:51

I mean, you already said he was gonna, but they should have had the conversation earlier. Like, why are Aragorn Aragorn Legolas and Gimli are just fighting for fun? Yeah. Like, this isn't even dangerous for them.

Joe 12:01

Yes.

Jen 12:02

They're just like, you don't even you just move to the side. This they can't be. No, but what I'm saying, it doesn't seem like they're going to be a good thing. No indeed for them, but they're never worried that anything could happen to them. Meanwhile, Theodon's like crushed by a horse, dead, everyone's hurt, and like there's a million dead people, and this is like, oh, everybody these guys to kill everyone.

Joe 12:25

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a fan of the green, the green ghost horde uh either.

Jen 12:31

I like it, but it just seems like if you were gonna do that, then you didn't have to let all the actual humans die.

Tom 12:37

Well, it's also a chance. I didn't know it would work.

Joe 12:40

That's true. And I mean I mean there's the old joke where people say, why didn't they just fly the got the ring, why didn't just Frodo fly an eagle to Mordor and drop it in? Um I don't know. Yeah, it wouldn't have been a great adventure then. I I Jen, I don't agree with the I don't mind the way they look. And it's funny, I was very careful when I was listening to this part in the book because I was like trying to like really understand, and I forgot I wanted to pull like excerpts of the descriptions of them. But I also feel like uh Tolkien uses a lot of like vague words, like he'll say wraiths and shadows, and he never says ghosts or zombies. You know what I'm saying? Like he doesn't I I feel like he doesn't really give a definitive description of them in the sense where you can kind of picture them. But I didn't picture them just floating around like ghosts and killing things, and then just like swarming them.

Tom 13:32

Yes, I pictured them almost almost like ring wraiths, right?

Joe 13:37

Just without the armor, like they were they were like corporeal, like zombie type or something.

Tom 13:43

Like they were like they were like they were like shadow people. That's what I always pictured them as. Oh, yeah. Like they weren't corporeal, like they didn't have substance, they just had essence.

Jen 13:54

That's what they are in the movie, kind of like.

Tom 13:57

But not that they crawl around like ants and cover people and like bring elephants down by swarming them or whatever. Like they they acted as people, they just didn't have substance. Okay. That's what I pictured. That's just me. I'm not saying that's what it is.

Joe 14:13

Yeah. I feel like I was kind I feel like they kind of got a little lazy at that in the battle. They're like, oh, let's just have these guys come and they'll be green, and we'll just make green cloud over everything, and so it's and it's dead.

Jen 14:22

Yeah, I think the green was like a visual thing for us, so when they're going into Minasurith and they're going up all the levels, you can kind of see where they are. But yeah, I mean it's cool when they take down the Olifant, but yeah, I don't know. They're just like a flying mob.

Tom 14:40

The point where uh Legolas takes down the old Olifant by himself and everybody who's on it is the culmination of something that we talked about, I think, in part one of the Fellowship episode. But how this is this functions, the movie especially. The book does too in a little bit, but the movie especially functions as a live-action Dungeons and Dragons quest where characters level up and can do more things. Like in the first movie, nine of them have to feat one cave troll. Yeah. And it's tough. And in this thing, he's like, oh, an elephant with like ten guys on it? Like, I'll just do that by myself. I'll climb up arrows and you know, yeah. He's got a bunch a bunch more feats and abilities, you know. Uh and like I it sh that always struck me as that.

Joe 15:34

And he never runs out of arrows, he's got a lot of things. Never runs out of arrows arrows.

Tom 15:38

Yeah. But um yes, Aragorn just got a magical item that allows him to do this thing, and that was Gimli we talked about in in it has kind of gotten the short shrift, especially in in we said in the two towers, like he's played almost too much for laughs. Um not so much one. Not not so much. His his laugh lines are him making jokes, and they're very like they're funny.

Joe 16:02

It's not his expense. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tom 16:05

He's not a caller. Even in the bit where he's like an elf in the ground and not like that's he's not doing that. No, it's him.

Joe 16:13

Like he's just like, that's also from the book, if I remember. I think he says that.

Tom 16:23

That's a funny line. Yeah, you know, yeah.

Joe 16:25

Um just like going back to the beginning, right, when the battle first starts. Um, right, we get we have the uh the general orc or captain orc, I don't know, whatever he is.

Tom 16:35

Uh he actually a general.

Joe 16:37

He's like released the prisoners, and it's the heads of the game. Oh my gosh. I love that line, release the prisoners, and you're like, what? What are they talking about? Oh.

Tom 16:47

That is brutal.

Joe 16:48

But I like how the Gondor, what do they call them? Gondorans? Gondorans? Gondorians?

Tom 16:54

Men of Gondor. Yeah.

Joe 16:55

Right? They never say Gondorans, right? Or anything? No. All right. The well, when they start, uh the orcs start sh like, you know, launching things, other, you know, like the fire and whatnot, and the stones, and they're breaking down, like to knock down towers and stuff. The the the men of Gondor just use the rubble and throw put it in their catapults and fling it back at them.

Tom 17:16

So badass.

Joe 17:17

Yeah.

Jen 17:18

Yeah, those big pieces of rock are that's crazy.

Tom 17:21

Yeah. They're like, uh, I like the like Captain Orc or General Orc, whatever his name is, Pink Orc, who's like, stand your ground, do not move. And then he tries to like be toughen it, toughen it out with the one thing that's coming right at him, and the last minute he doesn't score.

Joe 17:37

But he spits on it though. Yeah, he does spit on it. Does spit on it, so always gotta spit on it.

Jen 17:42

That'll show him.

Joe 17:43

Yeah.

Jen 17:44

Think about how good that guy looks, and then think about the hobby.

Joe 17:48

I was gonna bring this up with what's this.

Jen 17:49

It was like 10, 15 years, like this.

Tom 17:53

This guy's awesome. Yeah, like how do you uh with his sloth eye and everything?

Jen 17:58

Yeah.

Joe 18:00

So watching this with closed captioning, right? They wheel, they when the orcs are wheeling up that big like flame uh battering ram thing.

Jen 18:08

Battering ram as a name.

Joe 18:10

They're all chanting and they're all saying Grond, Grond, Grond, Grond. Is that that's the name of the battering ram they name it?

Jen 18:17

Yeah, it has a face.

Joe 18:20

It looks like a it look kind of looks like a dragon.

Jen 18:23

Oh, I thought it was like a wolf.

Tom 18:24

Oh yeah, I thought it was a flaming warg, yeah.

Joe 18:28

Okay, okay, okay.

Tom 18:29

Okay, that thing's great. Um, yeah, uh like the battle begins. Gandalf's awesome is like an inspirational battle leader. Um very rare use of magic in the film right before the battle actually begins, where he goes out to get light.

Jen 18:47

That's his thing, light. He can't really do much else.

Tom 18:49

Yeah, fire before.

Jen 18:50

Like, what else does he ever do?

Joe 18:52

He heals.

Jen 18:53

So he heals.

Joe 18:54

And I would say he heals Peregrine. Uh Peregrine, I'm calling him Peregrine when when he looked in the Palantir and he kind of goes catatonic.

Tom 19:01

Yeah, whatever. Like he's a wizard, but if for for those of you who are listening who have played Dungeons and Dragons or other RPGs, he he effectively acts as a paladin. He's a fighter, and he's got like he's got healing and turning spells, you know? Well, I feel like light spells.

Joe 19:19

Uh yeah, I feel like it's strange that they make him fight, like physically fight so much in the movies.

Tom 19:25

Yeah.

Joe 19:26

Because it doesn't see because it just makes you think like, why is he doing that? He's a wizard. Like, why can't he like cast some magical spells?

Tom 19:33

Why is he throwing fireballs?

Jen 19:34

Especially at the end, too, when they're outside the black gate, like, do something, do anything.

Joe 19:39

Yes. I mean, I'd rather him just stand there and not really do anything than just constantly cut to him fighting.

Jen 19:44

Yeah, I don't know.

Joe 19:45

Like whipping his staff around and swinging. I mean, some of it's okay. Like, I don't mind a little bit of fighting. Yeah, but yeah, cast the damn spell or just get out of the way, Handol, or just not show him. Um, but I mean he doesn't really do anything like that in the books anyway, so yeah.

Tom 20:01

Yeah, it's not like he's casting magical spells in the books all the time. His wizarding is more like his mental acuity than anything else.

Joe 20:10

Um he has some like foresight, right? And like um he's he's mystical.

Tom 20:15

Like that's I don't know.

Jen 20:16

He's like, everyone's like, oh Gandalf's here. I mean, something bad's gonna happen.

Tom 20:22

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I I like that bit. I like how like Perrin comes down and he's like, Perrin, get out of here. There's no place for you. And then like Perrin says him. Perrin, Jesus. Jesus. Yeah. Uh Perrin. Perrin, Pippin. Yeah. Uh but yeah, then then like all the hobbits are getting into the the wartime feel.

Joe 20:46

Yes. Uh, when when Pippen first comes out after the the attack starts, and he's like kind of almost in a stupor, he's like, uh Gandalf says, What are you doing out here? Get back in there, and he's like, They called us all out to fight.

Tom 20:58

And he's like, Oh fuck.

Joe 21:01

But he does save Gandalf. So he does.

Tom 21:03

Yeah.

Joe 21:04

So every time Gandalf tells him to do something, he doesn't do it, and it kind of works out.

Tom 21:09

He's a fool of a took.

Joe 21:10

Fool of a took. Um, I mean, the the Rohiram show up at the battle.

Tom 21:18

If heavy metal was turned into actors in a film, it would be the Rohiram. And kick that in like Yeah.

Joe 21:26

This is one of my favorite parts of the movie. You know, the one the one nitpick I have where when he's riding and he's along and he's saying ride now, hitting all their spears, nobody rides. He's saying ride now, and they're they don't ride.

Tom 21:36

They just they know they know they're waiting. They're waiting.

Joe 21:39

I know. Like he does this in the book though, too. I was like, Oh, he is running down the line saying ride now, but he I mean, obviously there's no visual, but Tolkien does say and they wrote down. Um, but I I always thought it would be cool as, and I still I still stick to my guns, Peter Jackson. If as he was hitting all the spears saying ride, they just start all start kind of like riding down like a wave.

Tom 22:00

Uh I agree. I I I know what to say. Counterpoint. Yeah. It's a fucking awesome speech. Right. Again, uh commentary from Teddy. Oh my god, he's high-fiving all their spears. I was like, that's exactly what he's doing. And then yeah, his his battle is just death. And then they're all like, yeah, death. Let's go.

Joe 22:26

I was thinking about the psychology of this during this because yes, this pumps me up too. I want to fucking ride down into a horde of orcs when I when I see this scene. Um but I feel like there's a psychology behind it too. Like if they're all screaming death, it almost I feel like it, it's almost like a a spell unto itself making you immune from fear of death.

Tom 22:46

Yes, yes, basically. That's it. Like there's no fear you've already given that up. You know that this is the fate, but let's go.

Joe 22:52

Yeah, we've already we've already yes, we've already gotten past that. We're gonna die. So let's fucking go out in the blaze of glory.

Tom 23:00

Right. Like we talked about in the last episode, right? Like that's the that's the difference between Thadon and and and and Denethor and why they both know this is hopeless. But Denethor is completely given up where Thadon's like, it's hopeless, but we fight so that others can live on, right?

Joe 23:18

Yes, and we're not gonna for me right? Yeah, if we're gonna we're not going down without a fight.

Tom 23:24

Right. And that's that's what it's all about.

Joe 23:26

Like I think even if it's unwinnable.

Tom 23:28

This this movie even more so than than the books, I think it's hope is a very important message of this about like that there is that it's important to struggle for for hope and belief. And like Gandalf kind of says it directly, like it's a fool's hope, but like that's what we fight for, you know?

Joe 23:46

Yeah. He does remind us uh what we're fighting for a few times. Yes.

Tom 23:51

There's a lot of there's a lot of like in case you missed the message of the film, let me tell you what the message of the film is. Um but that's fine. They're long movies, you want to make sure you're getting a point across.

Joe 24:04

Yeah, of course. I I agree with you. I think it's a good uh it's a good reminder of like what what what are we fighting for? What's all this for?

Tom 24:12

Right, right.

Joe 24:13

There's a lot of reminders in these movies about that. You get you get Gandalf's and then you usually get like a Sam Frodo kind of uh occasionally an Aragorn one.

Tom 24:23

Yeah. Sam has his last one like right before they uh make their final push where he's like, oh, it's it's just about spring in the Shire.

Joe 24:32

And he's actually strawberries agreeing with he's like, remember what strawberries taste like in Frodo's like, no.

Jen 24:38

I'm naked in the dark.

Joe 24:40

I don't remember what food. I don't remember what food tastes like.

Tom 24:44

That's what I don't remember the feel of water. Yeah. Oh I it's I'm naked in the dark, and all I see is a ring of fire. It's in my waking eye. Yeah, I'm like, Jesus.

Joe 24:58

Um sorry, Sam, but tell me more about your fucking strawberries. Yeah.

Tom 25:04

Oh, that we'll I want to go back to that later because it's my of all my awesome Sam things. He that that's right before my favorite Sam thing. But right around the time um I think it's right around the time the Roar are are are attacking, that's where Sam is finding Frodo and going through his own solo adventure. Which I went to the tower with the Yeah, we talked about it a little bit before, but I want to kind of highlight like the movie does a very good side like thing because it it gives you the time for Sam to mourn Frodo and say, Hey, I'm gonna have to take the ring and figure this out myself, without showing it to you. But it's not a cheat where like there's no time for that to happen. Uh there's time in space where like they didn't show him take the ring from Frodo, but they see Sam Sam's like leaning over him, yeah, like touching his face and like touching him and stuff, and it it looks in the moment like oh, he's just mourning him, but he's also like okay, I guess I gotta do this myself. Um Sam uh for a very brief moment. I in the move in the book it's better because it's like he's wearing the ring or he's got the ring on him, and like it gives the impression that he's this massive elven warrior kind of a thing, and the orcs are afraid, and then it's a Sam coming through. But here it's just like a brief like his shadow, yeah, and then he and then he it's only three orcs, and uh he has like a ton of guys, I think, in the book.

Joe 26:28

Well, they well, the orcs kill each other. There's like a whole battle inside the tower before and he just he only has to kill a couple of orcs, like there's still the orc, I think one or two orcs up with Frodo, and he might kill one other one, but they all kill each other.

Jen 26:43

A lot of them kill each other. I have a question. In the book, are the two orcs that were friends the ones that are fighting each other?

Joe 26:51

The ones that were were talking about how they wanted to get uh uh a little house after this movie was so free.

Jen 26:57

I don't remember if that was the same names.

Joe 26:59

It might be Shack Shagrak and like something with a J.

Jen 27:03

Gor. I don't know.

Joe 27:04

I can't remember the other one.

Jen 27:06

I was like, oh no, why guys? What happened? You're fighting over the mithril. I can't remember if it was never that.

Joe 27:13

I don't remember if it's the same ones, but I did think about it, and I think I did think of how we missed we missed a little bit of that in this in this scene too. I mean, we do get the them arguing over the mithril, but we don't get all like the uh the politics and again into the nitty-gritty of the uh frustrations of the different orc groups.

Tom 27:32

Yeah. They they they have like a little there's a little bit of like you know, I'm not gonna take that from your kind of whatever, like the Moragol, yeah, no Morgal uh orc or something like that. Right, but yeah, it's it's kind of left to aside. But yeah, Sam's a super badass, saves everybody, takes the ring, uses like I just uh yeah, like we said we said in episode one. This is really like the Sam story, this part. Uh so just what it was.

Joe 27:59

But it's definitely more of a Sam Frodo story in the in the movie. In the movie, it has to be, yeah.

Tom 28:03

Elijah Woods the the main character of the films.

Joe 28:06

Yes, you know for Frodo, not for Sam. Sorry.

Tom 28:10

And the other guy. Does Faraber even say that Sam's with him? When he says, like, oh, I saw Frodo a few days ago.

Jen 28:18

He said they're go. Oh, I don't know. There's a golem.

Tom 28:21

You think he says a golem?

Joe 28:22

I think he says I saw them. Yeah, maybe he does. I think he mentions both uh two with it. He might have said I saw two of them.

Tom 28:28

Sam's lower class. Who cares?

Joe 28:30

He does definitely mention that there's two of them because otherwise it would be weird if he just mentions Frodo and nobody says what about Sam, then come oh so so mean. Sorry, yeah.

Tom 28:44

So jump back. The roar room ride down, and um they're massive. There's six thousand of them, it's huge. And then you just see the army that they're running into, yeah. You're like, oh, this is not gonna go well.

Joe 28:58

Five times the size of them.

Tom 28:59

Yeah, oh my god.

Joe 29:01

Um, and that's not counting like the other uh well, the ones down by the river, and then that and then obviously the olifants. Um, but yeah, I mean the battle they they turn the tide, and then Aragorn sh shows up, and I still think this scene is so corny with the three of them just jump off the boat onto the dock. It seems so like I don't know, it's it looks very weird to me. And I I don't know why.

Tom 29:26

Well, I think I think part of it's because they're not there.

Joe 29:28

Like yeah, yeah, I guess that's probably what it is. I was like, do people do that? Like just jump off a boat onto the dock, and that's like a big boat, so but whatever. But like you said, they're not there. That's probably why it looks weird to me.

Tom 29:41

Right. Um who knows that's it.

Joe 29:45

And then they come up with a plan, uh diversion, as Legolas tells us. And we mentioned in the previous episode.

Tom 29:52

Um we get Did we wait, do we talk before before we move on from it? Do we talk about like we talked about Denethor being crazy? And we talked about Faramir, but we didn't talk about anything like Denethor does with Faramir, anything Denethor does with Faramir in the in his own.

Joe 30:07

I don't want it. It it makes me unhappy to talk about Denethor and what he does. But we can talk about it.

Tom 30:13

Yeah. Well, all right.

Joe 30:14

I would say, I mean, Pippen saves Faramir.

Tom 30:17

Um I for Sanethor is like you say, I wish your brother was still alive and you were dead instead. Yeah. He wouldn't have given up on Skilieth. I wish I had somebody who would go and get it back for me.

Jen 30:29

Yeah.

Tom 30:29

Sending his other son to his certain death.

Jen 30:32

Yeah. And then he says, think better of me if I return. That will depend upon the manner of your return.

Joe 30:39

Yeah.

Jen 30:40

Okay.

Joe 30:41

Alright. And he gets upset when he's when he comes back, like almost dead. He's like, uh, yeah, whatever, Dennis Or.

Jen 30:49

He takes all those guys, they're the long enough line to like the whole yeah, death.

Tom 30:55

And one 99 of them die.

Jen 30:57

Yeah.

Joe 30:58

Yes. Oh, come on, Faramir. You can't take these hundred guys against, you know, 30,000 orcs. What could are you? Baromere could do it.

Tom 31:08

Right, right.

Joe 31:10

Yeah. I mean, Denethor, right? He covers himself, him and Faramir in oil, yet, even though the thing's on fire, neither of them catch fire until like immediately.

Jen 31:20

He rolls Pippen rolls Faramir's face like right over the fire. Yes. I mean he does catch fire. Patting him out. Yeah, he pats him out a little bit.

Joe 31:29

Uh yeah. And then Denethor uh gets caught on fire. And well, Gandalf right hoofs him with the horse.

Jen 31:36

Shadowfax punches him in the face.

Joe 31:38

Shadowfax punch. I like that better. That's a better description, Jen. Um, and he goes running and jumps off the edge of the citadel in Ministireth to his death.

Tom 31:48

There's so many great shots in this film, and that's one of them. Yes.

Joe 31:52

And like does Scandal, and Gandalf has to. I love to I love Scandalf like announcing it, so passes Denith Orr, son of Acthillion.

Jen 31:59

I was watching with Olive, um, and she was like, when do we see where he lands? I'm like, no. He's like, I won't see who he fell on. Like, I I know, they don't show that. I'm sorry.

Joe 32:10

It doesn't matter, Olive.

Jen 32:12

Oh, somebody got killed very much.

Joe 32:14

Hopefully it was an orc.

Jen 32:16

Yeah.

Joe 32:16

Yeah. We can only hope. Um, so then right, they come up with the plan, they go to the black gate. Um the the best line in the entire trilogy. Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth. What is he saying? Very odd.

Jen 32:34

He says it like the black land come forth. The whole thing. That was like JFK kind of sounds like that.

Joe 32:39

He sounds like Slim Pickens.

Jen 32:41

Who's that? It's like a Pickens.

Joe 32:45

He's an actor from like the 60s.

Tom 32:48

You ever seen I don't know if you've seen the movie, but you've seen Slim Pickens. There's a there's a movie called Doctor Strange Love. Okay. And at the end, Slim Pickens is the guy who's riding the bomb down.

Joe 32:57

Yeah, that's Slim Pickens.

Tom 32:58

Yeah.

Joe 32:59

But he's very Southern, he's got a very southern accent. That's what that's what uh Aragorn sounds like. He sounds like he's from all of a sudden came from the become.

Tom 33:09

Well, even with the the the even his little rallying speech is a little like the accent's a little odd all of a sudden. Yes, it's a very early, very early scene that they filmed before he nailed it down.

Jen 33:22

That speech I don't recognize. Is it in the book? Does he give that speech?

Joe 33:27

He gives a speech, but I don't think that's the speech.

Jen 33:30

Yeah, I don't recognize that at all. Most of the other speeches and things like that are gener are like, you know, directly from the book, if not like verbatim, but that's I don't know if they just wrote it.

Joe 33:39

I think they wrote it. I think there is I think he does say something, but that's not it. And I guess they wanted to make it more of a dramatic moment, which which is fine. Yeah, it's Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth is a quote is a direct line from the book.

Jen 33:51

Yes.

Joe 33:51

Nowhere does it says said Aragorn with a southern Texas drawl.

Jen 33:56

Anyway, every single person that's there had a horse when they arrived. And then when they start fighting, every single horse is gone.

Joe 34:06

Did they really have horses?

Jen 34:08

They rode there. And then and the bunch of them go up to the gate with horses, you know, and then every horse is gone. The Rohirim are fighting on foot.

Tom 34:18

When he's giving the speech, the Rohirim are clearly higher up than everybody else. Like you can see, there's like a mass of people, and then there's a mass of people higher up behind them. Yeah, but yeah, and then like uh I guess let them go. I don't know. Horses run away a lot of time.

Jen 34:35

I don't understand how that seems like a big how do you forget that everyone just rode here for a minister on a horse?

Joe 34:44

Well, I I don't think they forgot. I think they the way they wanted to do the scene, they wanted them to be standing on the ground, I think.

Jen 34:51

I don't know. But then it I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Joe 34:56

I agree with you. And just just for reference, too, and I would I I was I thought I knew this and I just wanted to double check it. Vigo Mortenson's from New York City. Yes, so it's so it's he's from New York, so yeah. He's from New York.

Jen 35:08

Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth.

Joe 35:10

Yeah. So the fact the fact that he had a Southern accent is a bit strange.

Jen 35:17

He was trying, it just didn't come out well in that land in that line.

Joe 35:21

He was having trouble, I think, when he had to like project his voice and speak with the fake British accent, like British accent light. Just came out as a southern accent. I don't know. I wonder how many takes they did of that line. One.

Jen 35:34

This was good. That was it. That was one take. It's perfect. Let the Lord, the black line come forward.

Tom 35:41

You ever see they made a movie called The Disaster Artist, which is about making the movie's room. The trailer for it is the best trailer in the world. It's just him trying to do the one line. Oh, hi Mark. No, it's not yeah, yeah.

Joe 35:55

It's not that mark, it's not the oh hi mark. Yeah, but he comes out on the roof, and he's like, Yeah, yeah.

Tom 36:00

He's like, Oh no, it's take it's the whole thing. It's the line before it.

Joe 36:04

He's doing he says this really dramatic line. I can't think of what it is. And then it's and then he goes, Oh, hi Mark.

Tom 36:11

Yeah, but it's like so it's like take one, take three, take ten, take sixty-four. And like, like in the middle of it, like everyone says the line. Yeah, yes, and then like he finally gets it. It's so bad. And like, yeah, and then that's the trailer. Yeah. Like, and that's what this was, Joe. It wasn't one take, it was 80 takes.

Joe 36:30

Probably that's what I think, to be honest with you, Tom. I think this was 80 takes, and they just whatever.

Jen 36:38

The horses weren't allowed to work for that long. That's why they're just like the line, they had to like that and put all the horses back in the stable, and they just had to move forward.

Joe 36:47

Actually, that they they made a mistake, they forgot they had to take a break, they forgot to bring the horses back out, and that just happened to be the the one take that was usable. So they were like, what about the horses? Listen, all these other takes of him saying this are so bad. Let's just put it in the one without the horses.

Tom 37:06

We'll just guys we'll do a lot of close-ups of everybody, and you can't tell whether they're on horses or not. Don't worry about it.

Jen 37:14

Um whatever. Yeah, I guess it would be weird if like when the whole thing is collapsing that they're all like on horses and like falling over. I don't know. Or just have them march instead of riding.

Joe 37:28

Yeah, they could have just marched there, I agree.

Jen 37:30

Yeah.

Joe 37:31

What you know what I really like? I like how the first person that Frodo sees when he wakes up after the whole ordeal is Gandalf. And as far as he knows, Gandalf is dead. Yeah, yes, but it it doesn't seem to cross his mind at all that he might be dead too. And he's seeing it. No, he's just happy.

Jen 37:51

Yeah.

Tom 37:52

Like, so again, the the eagles come, you're like, oh, the eagles, yay! And they pick them up, and like Frodo's like, he's like, he looks up, he sees the eagle, and he's like, I can't with this shit, and just like passes out. My dad.

Jen 38:08

I don't care, whatever.

Tom 38:11

It's a very good, like, dissolved cut of like him passed out to him passed out in bed.

Jen 38:16

That's the first ending of like five endings. The first end of the day. Well, it fades to black for a really long time.

Tom 38:21

Fades to white. For a really long time.

Joe 38:24

No. There's a fade to whiteness, too.

Tom 38:25

There's a fade to white, but like at least we're here together at the end of all things. Yeah.

Jen 38:31

Then it fades to black after everybody sees him in the bed. Yes. Again. You're like, okay, that's the end of the movie. All right, good. Yeah, all right, good. Oh, yeah.

Joe 38:39

And there's like the uh the big ceremony where then it fades to black again, and then they're in the Shire, and it fades to my fade to white here.

Jen 38:48

I don't know.

Joe 38:49

So uh There's about seven or eight endings to this movie.

Tom 38:53

There's a lot of endings to the film.

Joe 38:54

Yeah, it's so funny. When we got to the scene where he wakes up and everybody comes in, like I feel like this is such like an iconic. I was like, I'll just gonna skip through this like because I'm trying to save time. It's like it's just people walking in and saying hi, but I couldn't do that because I feel like this is one of those scenes where it's like it's always funny to watch. It's kind of a silly scene, but I have to watch it.

Tom 39:13

I laugh, I I I never thought this when we were when I first was watching the movie, but I laughed so much at this because it's like everyone walks in and he's like, Mary, Pippin, Gimli, right? And then it's like Legless, who he has no lines with in the film, and it's the only person he doesn't shout his name when he walks in.

Joe 39:33

Well, he doesn't say Sam's name when Sam walks in. Right. Well, but um again, nobody nobody can say Sam's name. No, Sam's um no, they just have the look of each other like me and you, bro. Yeah, we're the only ones who know.

Tom 39:46

Exactly. We were real, we're OGs.

Jen 39:49

Did you tell them that I didn't throw the ring in? Like, what's the story that was actually told? Does everyone know that like?

Joe 39:55

I don't think they ask, I don't think they even ask him. That's a great question, though, Jen. Do they ask? I'm sure Marian Pippen asked him, right? You think?

Jen 40:03

Oh, Gandalf would be like, like, nine figures.

Joe 40:07

I don't think Gandalf will do that.

Tom 40:09

I don't think Gandalf, I don't think Gandalf will do it. Gandalf knows, by the way. He doesn't need to do that. Gandalf knows from the get-go. He's like, I wouldn't kill, I wouldn't kill Gollum.

Jen 40:18

He knows that that's gonna happen.

Tom 40:20

I think he has an inkling. He says it directly. He's like, Gollum may play an important part. No, I know it's all over.

Jen 40:28

No, I don't think he does.

Tom 40:29

He doesn't know.

Joe 40:30

He because he's very I think he's more thinking of a of a guide. Like Gollum would be one to be able to get them into Mordor.

Jen 40:37

Right. I just thought that was like a you know, you don't know what the future is. It's just like a generic you don't know what the future holds, and that whole speech that he gives.

Tom 40:47

It's very clear in the film, at least, from from um from E. McHelden's reactions, from Gandalf's reactions to things, he does not know and is really happily surprised that Frodo is still alive. Yeah. And that it's working, and that like every sign that they get over the course of this film that Frodo has not been killed yet, uh, like he met with the guy's.

Joe 41:11

Yeah, he says at one point he's beyond my sight, he says, like some earlier point in the movie, as as as like I can't sense him anymore. I don't I don't know what he was trying to say, but so that's that's almost what I feel like. Um I can't sense him, I don't know what's going on with him anymore. And I don't think Gandalf would have asked Frodo like what happened. He doesn't need to know. He knows that they're alive. Yeah, the ring is destroyed, the ring's destroyed, and maybe he says Gollum, like he meant, you know, maybe they he says what is Gollum still alive or whatever.

Jen 41:38

Well he knew yeah, because he knew that Gollum's with them. Yeah, but he just didn't know how it ended up.

Joe 41:43

But Marion Pippen, I could see asking him and Sam what happened.

Tom 41:47

Pippin a hundred percent, yeah.

Joe 41:49

They never refer to it or mention it in the books, but that's a great point, Jen. Like, don't tell him that I was gonna keep the ring. But Frodo would say, I think Frodo would tell them.

Tom 41:58

Yeah, I would say if you're if you're if you're looking at the animated film like uh of this uh everyone knows. They write a song about it.

Jen 42:07

Oh, well, there's a song in the book, too.

Tom 42:09

Yeah, yeah. They know. It's not it's I I don't think he would keep it secret. Like, I think like Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doomsday.

Jen 42:18

Honestly, like nobody else would have even gotten it to that point.

Tom 42:21

Yeah.

Jen 42:22

So exactly.

Tom 42:23

It worked. It's not a shame.

Jen 42:25

Yeah.

Tom 42:26

People are usually corrupted by looking at it.

Jen 42:28

Yeah.

Joe 42:28

Yeah.

Tom 42:29

He carried it for a year.

Joe 42:31

Yeah. Um then what so then we get the scene out, um, the the like big celebration scene with the crowning of Aragorn, and um I'm here and for the one. Arwen's hiding behind the behind the flag. Peekaboo.

Jen 42:46

I'm alive. Right. I live through the ring.

Joe 42:50

Yeah. Right. We get the shots, right? The Faramir Aowin shot. Like, oh, are they together? Sure.

Tom 42:59

The only inkling you have that that Legolas is a prince as well, because he's wearing a crown.

Jen 43:03

Little crown, yeah.

Joe 43:04

And then his people are behind him, I guess. Like, are those are the Merkwood elves behind him? I'm not sure about that. We definitely don't see Lee Pace there. No. Um such a jerk, dad.

Tom 43:13

Yeah. Uh a lot of that in his books.

Jen 43:17

He didn't help at all, except sending Legolas. That's all he did.

Tom 43:21

Yes. He's piecing out immediately. He is done with all this shit. He's already that's right.

Joe 43:26

He's probably he probably already went out on was already on the boat to Valorant.

Jen 43:29

He's like the least important of all the important elves.

Joe 43:34

He is, yes. He doesn't even have a ring.

Tom 43:36

He doesn't even have a ring, so no, Gandalf has his, I guess.

Jen 43:40

Did Gandalf has a ring?

Joe 43:42

It's the ring. The other ring is the guy who the the guy who presides over the Greyhavens. He gives this ring to Gandalf, I think. Yeah. Can't remember.

Tom 43:51

Gandalf Gandalf has a sort of thing.

Jen 43:52

Oh, so Kelleborn does not have a ring.

Tom 43:54

No.

Joe 43:57

What's the guy's name? Uh

Jen 44:00

Oh, at the end.

Joe 44:02

Yeah, that I mean that's the guy I think in the books who has the ring. Uh I don't want to read a whole history of it.

Jen 44:09

Whatever.

Joe 44:11

Yeah. Sorry.

Jen 44:12

I kind of feel like Gimli is up there with him and Gandalf, but he doesn't but I feel bad that he doesn't get a little nod. Kiardon. Thanks. Okay.

Tom 44:22

Okay.

Joe 44:23

He has Nar Narya, the Ring of Fire, which was first given to Gilgalad.

Jen 44:28

Okay.

Joe 44:29

Who was like the king of the elves, then passed to Kirdin, who then gives it to Gandalf. Uh Nenya is the Ring of Water, which was given to Galadriel and remained with her. She's the only one who's had the ring the entire her ring the entire time. And then Vilia is the ring of air, which was given to Gilgalad as well, and then passed to Elrond. Okay. You say Gilgalad?

Jen 44:50

Gilgalad.

Joe 44:51

Gilgalad, yeah. Yeah. Gilgalad, Gilgalad.

Jen 44:54

You also say Galad for Wheel of Time.

Joe 44:57

So Galad, Galad.

Jen 44:59

Galad.

Joe 45:00

Galahad.

Tom 45:01

He's Galahad.

Joe 45:03

Not Galadahad.

Tom 45:05

Galadhad.

Joe 45:06

Gladhead. That's Galadhead a ring. Um yes, and then I I love when they when they go to bow to him, the hobbits, and he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We we bow to you. And I like all their different expressions when they are everyone bows. Like Pippin Pippin kind of looks a little bit like proud.

Tom 45:24

Yeah.

Joe 45:24

And like Mary's like, whoa! And Frodo's just like kind of staring off. Like he doesn't. And Sam's kind of like, oh, this is kind of cool. That scene always gets me.

Tom 45:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 45:35

Gets me, gets me right here in the old ticker.

Tom 45:39

Cockles of your heart, Joe. Um, then then you see a map. And we traveled backwards.

Joe 45:46

And we traveled back, and we faded into obscurity into the put the green dragon in. I believe that's the end, right? Is that the end? Yeah. I like it.

Tom 45:54

It's very much I actually like it. It's very much because like they're so uncomfortable and they're so like having a hard time like getting back into their old lives. It is like a little like tiny like bit of realism of like this is what a lot of soldiers are like when they go back home. Like they're trying to get back into their old lives and their old ways of being, but they just don't feel like they fit in.

Joe 46:17

Yes, yeah, you're right. That's that's a great point. And you'd you'd think Tolkien would have kind of understood that and had that, you know, similar feeling to that, but that's definitely not what happens in the books.

Tom 46:29

No, in the books is just like, let's keep fighting, boys.

Joe 46:32

Yeah, there's more there's still more to do. Oh, by the way, you thought that saving the world was enough. No, you gotta go save the Shire now.

Tom 46:38

Yeah.

Joe 46:39

Um which is fine. It's just a weird scene. It's just weird to put that scene though. That's the scene you want to show, or that's the scene you decide to put in the movie, which is like literally the exact opposite.

Tom 46:53

Yeah. Well, it's again, and and and going back, it's like it's it's it works here. Like they do this to save places like the Shire, and it works. And I do I do like um, you know, Rosie Cotton was like a dream girl, and now Sam's like I fucking fought all this shit. I can go talk to her.

Jen 47:13

Yeah.

Joe 47:13

And like I I thought it would have been funny if somebody made a joke, like you literally walked into Mordor and destroyed Sauron and you're afraid to talk to Rosie Cotton, and he would be like, hell yeah. It's the scarier.

Tom 47:25

It's funny because he gets up to go talk to her, and the other three guys are like, Oh, like yeah. But it works. Good for him. He talks to her and they get married.

Jen 47:35

Yeah. A little after that. Not the next one.

Tom 47:40

Sometimes, yes.

Joe 47:41

And then he goes to the then they go to the Greyhavens with Frodo. Um, and Frodo's like, oh no, I'm leaving too. Everyone gets sad, and then I think this might be the fade to white. Yes. I remember. And then it's not the end of the other side. No, no, that's almost the end. Sam goes home and says, I'm back, which is the end of the book.

Tom 48:02

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the return to normalcy. That's that that's the take the all of this is done, and now Sam's just gonna live a life. Yeah.

Joe 48:10

And then in the book, we get a little timeline, a little afterward timeline that's basically says, like, in this year, Sam became elected mayor of Hobbiton, and then Pippin becomes Thane, and Mary becomes this, and then Sam has a daughter, and then Sam's daughter marries Pippin's son, and Pippin's son then takes over, and like all of that.

Tom 48:28

And then they they even say, like, but they're also like an Aragorn dies on this day, and like everybody.

Joe 48:35

Sam and Rosie go visit Minus Tirith, and Aragorn come and comes and visits that like there's all these things that other things that happen, and then like Gimli and Aragorn.

Tom 48:45

Gimli and uh Legolas explore like the elven woods and the dwarven halls, and they travel the world as bus buds.

Joe 48:52

And they literally go through each member of the fellowship like the end of their time, right? It's I think Legolas might be the very last person he leaves.

Tom 49:02

Legolus and Gimli go to the Grey Havens. They go together. Legolas is the last elf on Middle Earth. All the other elves have left, and Legolas is traveling with Gimli, and then they leave.

Joe 49:13

Yeah, because Aragorn dies. Eventually, Sam goes to the Grey Havens because he was a ring bearer. Is that the very I don't think so? I think they I think Legolas and Gimlies.

Tom 49:23

No, Legolas and Gimli is the last thing, yeah. But yeah.

Joe 49:26

Yeah, they're the last ones of the fellowship to leave Middle-earth. Aragorn dies.

Tom 49:32

And they make it very clear, like they go going to the even going, even though going to the Great Havens is getting on a boat and traveling to somewhere else, that's death. Like you are not like you're not alive anymore. That's the afterlife.

Joe 49:47

Well, it's weird because Valinor is a real place, but it's also heaven.

Tom 49:53

I don't know.

Jen 49:53

Yeah, you're like alive when you go. Like, why couldn't anybody else just like get on a boat and go there?

Joe 49:59

Well, you I don't think well, I don't think you can find it, they would be able to find it.

Jen 50:04

Yeah, okay.

Joe 50:05

Um, I don't think okay, so this is we could have this debate right now, I guess. I don't think Val because Valiner is a real place, so I don't think it is heaven. I think it's like it's kind of like heaven in the sense of it's a wonderful place that you can live forever or for a really long time in, but I think it's a real physical place that you go with your body, not like my soul. Yes, I die and my soul goes there.

Tom 50:31

Yes, it's yeah, there's no like uh there's no transmutation or whatever, like you just go, but that's like that's you're no you don't come back either. Like you you can go there and you're in a place elves have come back from Valinor. Yeah, but I don't think not anymore. This is it. So what was it?

Joe 50:50

They don't want to, I think they don't want to go back. Yeah, um, yeah, and that's the end of the movie. And or the book, I should say.

Tom 50:56

The movie ended a few pages ago.

Joe 50:58

Yes. Well, I mean, like the scouring of the Shire, the uh the audiobook chapter is like almost an hour. It's really a lot of stuff happens, it's a lot in there. Um, and even the Greyhavens is like about half that. It's about a half hour that whole because they they go to he goes to Rivendell, like Frodo's Frodo gets married to Rosie Cotton, and then I'm sorry, Sam gets married to Rosie Cotton, and Frodo invites them to stay at Bag Earth with him, which is a little weird. Um, and then Frodo decides it's his time to go. Well, he says he wants to go visit Bilbo because it's Bilbo's 131st birthday, I think, at this point, or something like that, where he's now older than the old Took uh lived for. Um, that's when they talk about the book and you know writing uh all his writings and things like that, and then they take the trip to the Grey Havens. Um, but then right though, do they Frodo and Bilbo go separately, right?

Tom 51:51

In the book, in the book, the four of them go, like the four Frodo and Sam and Mary and Pippin, and then as they leave, they all split off.

Joe 51:58

No, what I'm saying is when Bilbo goes in the in this movie, they all go to like Bilbo and Frodo go together, but I think in the book, Bilbo goes first and then Frodo goes back.

Tom 52:09

Yes, yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, you have yeah, you have all the stuff about like on the anniversary of the of Weathertop, he he it's always a bad day for him. Yes.

Joe 52:21

October 6th, I think. I'm starting to remember these dates now. The the the day the ring was was cast into Mount Doom, uh March 25th, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Anyone wants to remember that? And Billbone Frodo's birthday is is September 22nd.

Tom 52:36

Yeah, the solstice. March 25th was considered uh the day that Jesus uh was uh uh was raised from the dead. Oh really?

Joe 52:49

Yeah, yeah. There we go. Um how did this movie do?

Tom 53:00

Like financially?

Joe 53:02

Well yeah, was it any good? Uh this can't be right, right? Opening weekend 34.4 million. Oh no, opening Wednesday. Sorry, that's right, because this movie came out on a Wednesday. Uh 34.5 million on the opening Wednesday, uh grossed 1.14 billion worldwide.

Tom 53:20

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Joe 53:22

And it was the second becoming the second movie to pass the 1 billion mark.

Tom 53:26

It didn't sweep the Oscars, uh, I don't think, but it won 10.

Joe 53:32

It did. It won all 11 categories. Oh, I thought it only won 10. Okay. No, it won all 11 categories. It won every award that it was nominated.

Tom 53:40

So this is the only one only movie that got nominated for an acting award, and Ian Kellen won, right? Best supporting actor.

Joe 53:47

Yes, right. He was the only one nominated, I think.

Tom 53:49

The only one nominated. And that really was like like a best. I feel like it was a best ensemble award, even though he got it.

Joe 53:57

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's probably an argument that Sean Aston should have been nominated too, potentially, but I think they probably it's probably better they didn't, because then it could probably split the vote.

Tom 54:08

They would have split the vote, yeah.

Joe 54:09

Yeah, it was too late to nominate Sean Bean that cut him from the movie and the the you know.

Jen 54:14

Uh so that's so what was they showing getting shot with arrows? Does that count?

Joe 54:19

That's true, that's right.

Jen 54:20

Yeah.

Joe 54:21

What was so this is the second movie in film history to surpass the one billion mark? Anyone know what the first one was? Titanic? That's what my guess, too. It's it's not here, but that's my guess as well. Titanic.

Tom 54:33

It's Titanic.

Joe 54:34

Okay. Um, what else do we got here? We talked about all the changes or the biggest changes. Yeah.

Tom 54:40

We did we did all of it.

Joe 54:41

Scouring of the Shire, the Army of the Dead, you know. I mean, we didn't talk much about this, but Aragorn's character is a bit his character is a bit different in the sense of in the movie, in the books, he's just kind of like he's there to fulfill his birthright and he knows what he has to do. Whereas in the movie, he's a bit more of a reluctant hero.

Tom 54:59

Yeah, there's a there's a journey for him.

Joe 55:01

Yeah, he yeah, he's I think it's it's like almost like a self-confidence thing, or like, do I really deserve this? And you kind of think about like, does he really deserve this? His his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was king, like, and he's done nothing, so why should he become the king? But that's a very British thing. Yeah, it's very the monarch, the monarchy. Although he is he is right, like he's known as a king as the he as a healer. Yes, like they mentioned they constantly talk about him being a healer, and he's got a new name now, El Sr.

Tom 55:31

He didn't have enough, yeah.

Joe 55:33

Uh, let's see, what else do we got here? We got the mine a minus t model was built at 1 to 72 scale, standing nearly 23 feet high.

Tom 55:44

Oh, wow.

Joe 55:45

That's what they had to use for a lot of that big uh the wide shots. Well, probably most of the shots, um, and the battle scenes. We talked about the 12.5 million rings of for the chainmail armor, people having to hand link those. That's insane. Uh what else here? Oh, here we go. Delete this is deleted Sauron duel, so they mustn't have ever filmed this. But apparently there was gonna be a scene where Aragorn originally fought Sauron at the Black Gate, but they cheat, they replaced him. But guess what? They kept the footage and just replaced Sauron with the cave troll that Aragorn does fight.

Tom 56:23

Oh, that's really weird.

Joe 56:25

Yeah, that's bonkers.

Jen 56:27

I would love to see that. That would have been cool. It's weird that you don't see Sauron at all, except for the beginning.

Tom 56:40

Yeah, the the the implication that I I always had from from the reading the books and in and from the movie is that like he needs the ring to become corporeal again. Yeah.

Joe 56:50

I yeah, I do dislike the eye spotlight thing. I think that's just very corny.

Jen 56:57

Yeah, I don't mind the eye, but when it starts like searching along the floor for you, that's like a little too much.

Joe 57:01

And Frodo does Sam's like Frodo, the eye, and he does like a weird flop to kind of hide from the eye. Like as if the as if the like you get in the I don't know. What was gonna happen if he in the light? Okay.

Jen 57:18

I don't know.

Joe 57:20

Um, well, I was maybe it's like a like a sorry, it's like uh what is it, a tractor beam?

Jen 57:27

Sucks you with.

Tom 57:28

I think uh just you know, whatever. I'll joke it aside. Like, I think what would happen is if if he saw him, he would be compelled to put the ring on.

Joe 57:36

No, well, I think that's the opposite, but that's the opposite of what Sauron wants. He doesn't want him to put the ring on, he wants the ring.

Tom 57:42

Yeah, but I don't think he's any okay. So this is interesting because I I think um the movie doesn't do this, but the book does. Uh in my mind, my reading of the book, right? Soron, like Frodo or anybody who uses the ring, right? Gollum or Bilbo or whatever, like they can't use the ring. They use the ring to turn it visible, but they can't like bend the ring to their will.

Jen 58:02

Right?

Joe 58:03

Yeah, they don't know how to do that.

Tom 58:04

Right. They don't have the they don't have the the power, the internal power to do that. Yeah, my reading of the book always was Frodo puts the ring on at the end, and the Nazgul come to Mount Doom, not to get him, but because he calls them. Like I feel like the journey that Frodo goes on in the in the series allows him to use the ring.

Joe 58:27

Ah you think he's learning how to use it?

Tom 58:30

I think not like I it's giving him the internal strength of will to be able to bend the ring to his will. Like he's fought against it so long that it's given him like the the internal willpower to bend the ring to his will. And like that's the the that's the turn at the end of that, is that he calls them. They come because he calls. That's the way I've always read it.

Joe 58:52

Really? Yeah. I don't oh, I don't know about that. I'm not I'm not saying that I I'm not saying that that's he barely uses the ring too, in the uh I mean at all. Like he only puts it on a handful of times at most.

Tom 59:04

Yeah. I I don't think it's the kind of thing where it's like he's studying an artifact to to to to learn how to use it.

Joe 59:10

I think it's literally a matter of like do you have the uh attuning, becoming attuned to it.

Tom 59:17

And and like you need a certain strength of of of will, a strength of force to be able to to take something that powerful and and wield it, right? Um and an ordinary person just wouldn't be able to do that.

Joe 59:32

I agree. No, I agree, and I think it's probably too overwhelmingly evil for most people to even be able to like to be able to handle without going mad.

Tom 59:41

Smeagle Smeagol and Deagle just immediately start murdering each other as soon as they see the ring. Like there's no yeah.

Joe 59:48

Um obviously you don't have to put it on to feel its effect, just just carrying it. Although Bilbo carries it for a really long time. I mean, I guess he's not physically carrying it for that long.

Tom 59:58

Yeah, he he puts it away pretty quickly. Yeah, um, and it seems like it's much more powerful when Sauron's around like now, like it's more powerful now than it was in the last hundred years.

Joe 1:00:12

Sauron gains strength, so does the effects of the ring. And obviously, there's the I think there's the proximity as well. Like the closer you get to Sauron and Mordor, it's just it just becomes heavier and heavier and weighs more on you, which I think is why Frodos becomes so quickly affected by it.

Tom 1:00:31

Yeah.

Joe 1:00:31

Um which I like. I like the whole thing. I like the whole thing. Um, Jen, you did you did talk a little bit, I think, at the beginning, uh, I think it was in part one about you know, uh, in the book that they're just walking and walking in Mordor. I will say this though, Tolkien really gives you a good sense of the despair and the environment that they're in about how like they just like they're so dry and the air tastes like ash and there's fog and like um crevices with like steam coming out of. I don't know. I feel like it's a very good it puts me in the right frame of mind, like worst place imaginable. Here you go.

Tom 1:01:13

Right.

Joe 1:01:14

Like here's here it is. I'm laying it all on the table. This is how bad it is where they are. And there's a lot of that, a lot of it is describing that, so yeah.

Jen 1:01:22

It's just uh I don't know, it just seemed to go on a little. I get it. Yeah, maybe I was in despair reading it, so I guess they got me. But yeah, I get like not like not every everything takes a day to do, you know. The movie, the book was kind of like this is how long it would actually take for these two creatures to walk this far. And he's got the map in front of him, and he's and the moon phases and all the things that he's working on. Everything has to line up perfectly with you know what's going on, because it has to happen at the same moment.

Joe 1:01:58

So continuity, especially in the way he writes it, where it's like the first half of the book is these characters, and then we're gonna go to the these other characters, what they were doing at the same time.

Jen 1:02:08

Yeah, like w uh here in the movie.

Tom 1:02:10

It's just like, let's have a giant pillar of green light to lock everybody in.

Jen 1:02:15

Um when I should probably know this, but what year did the two towers come out and what year did the Return of the King come out? The books?

Joe 1:02:23

Uh Return of the King came out in the the first one.

Tom 1:02:28

55. Yeah. Yeah, the other two came out in 54. Yes.

Jen 1:02:32

I'm just thinking like you're reading Two Towers, and like the end is with like Frodo's captured, Sam is by himself, you thought Frodo was dead, and then like you you pick up Return of the King, and like you have to wait like halfway through the book to like find out what happened to them.

Tom 1:02:48

Yeah.

Jen 1:02:48

And then they're just like, it's like, oh my god, let something happen, you know?

Joe 1:02:52

Well, at least you know Frodo's alive at the end of Two Towers. Like it would be different if like you you think he's it leaves off as he's dead.

Jen 1:02:59

Yeah.

Joe 1:03:00

Or you don't know if he's dead. So I mean, you know where you know where they stand, right? Frodo's alive, but he's been captured by the orcs. Um's gone. Sam's alone. Yeah.

Jen 1:03:10

So every everything that they say seems like there's no way we're gonna like we're looking at Mordor, there's no way we can get across this field. And then it's like, oh, okay. Like everything just seems to like work out. I guess that's what you were talking about before, the word that he made up.

Joe 1:03:27

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like new catastrophe.

Jen 1:03:30

Yeah, like there's no chance of us making it across, but we'll just try. And then like it works. Something happens.

Joe 1:03:37

I mean, that's part of the moral of this story. It's just like you gotta just keep putting one foot in front of the other, no matter how impossible it seems. Yeah. I mean, it you you're you're not uh it's like a stupid uh, what's his name? Cliche. Uh you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Jen 1:03:52

Oh, yeah.

Joe 1:03:53

Uh, but that's kind of what it is. It's like you know, it ordinary people can become extraordinary and do extraordinary things if they just continue on, like push forward.

Tom 1:04:04

Right. One last thing before we wrap up, because I I always find this interesting. And like, so uh the books were published in 54 and 55, they were written in the 40s for the most part. And Tolkien swore up and down they had nothing to do with World War II. That they were really they were inspired by his experiences during World War I. But they're clearly inspired by World War II, right?

Joe 1:04:30

Well, his son was in World War II while he was writing these, and I believe we talked about this last time that he would send um manuscripts to his son, and his son would kind of read it and critique it and give him feedback.

Tom 1:04:42

But I would say like the people of the world, like World War I did not have like bad guys and good guys. It was a war between like different allied powers, you know. World War II was there's a dark force, yeah, you know, there's a dark force out there in the east, and that we all have to like band together, and here's this one super powerful weapon that is almost too powerful for anyone to wield safely. Like there's a lot of nuclear nuclear bombs. Yeah, exactly.

Joe 1:05:15

What are you trying to say, Tom, that like Nazgul is sound similar to Nazi?

Tom 1:05:21

I am trying to say that. Um that uh yeah, so I just think that it's an example of a writer not you know, not even necessarily being aware of the influence of the world working on his on the work that he's doing. Because he, I mean, and we talked about a lot throughout this series, how much he was focused on what he wanted to get out of these uh books that he almost didn't realize things that he was putting into the books uh inadvertently.

Joe 1:05:48

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I I agree. I think that just happens with anybody. Um do we want to give our ratings for this, or do we is there anything we missed that was super important?

Jen 1:05:58

That's it.

Joe 1:06:00

Uh let's see, any fun facts? No. We talked about all the fun facts. The rest of the facts I have here are not fun.

Tom 1:06:07

Okay.

Joe 1:06:08

Alright, who wants to go first? I already know what Jen's gonna put here.

Jen 1:06:12

Oh I don't know. I don't know. I'm wavering.

Joe 1:06:15

Oh, really? So think about you gave the you gave the fellowship a five. Do you like this movie better than the fellowship or not? Or as much as the fellowship, I should say.

Jen 1:06:23

I really like it, but I don't know. I really like I don't know if I like it more than the fellowship or the same as the fellowship. What did I give two towers? 4.75?

Joe 1:06:35

Yes.

Jen 1:06:35

Yeah, I think I'm gonna do the same for this one. 4.75. I want to let the fellowship remain above as my favorite of all the movies.

Joe 1:06:43

Tom?

Tom 1:06:44

Um I am I walked into this uh and even throughout most of the podcast, going, yeah, I think it's a 4.75 for me. Uh, because there are parts in it that I don't really like. Like we talked about a little bit in part one about the Sam stuff and whatever.

Joe 1:06:59

Like uh I think that's the biggest thing that my dislike, yeah.

Tom 1:07:04

But as we've talked about it through this, and really as I'm thinking about this this last rewatch and re-watching it again with with my son, I uh this movie slaps in so many different ways. It does slap. Uh I'm giving it a five. I I think uh that's for that's for my man Sam.

Joe 1:07:18

Yeah, I'm gonna give it a 4.75 as well. I do think this movie slaps as well. It slaps super hard, super fast, and it doesn't stop slapping. Um yeah, my my my biggest, I think, uh gripe with this is the the Sam and Frodo stuff. I think they I think they kind of did it a little bit a little bit wrong, but I mean I think there were there's definitely points in it that are really cool that I still enjoy, and it doesn't ruin it for me. A lot of the other stuff's just silly things for me. So uh this movie gives a lot of feels, so it gets a lot of stars. 4.75 for me. Successful adaptation? Yeah, should we all bang our gavels on this one? I think we all agree successful adaptation. Um one of the most successful adaptations ever.

Tom 1:08:06

Yeah.

Joe 1:08:06

In terms of in terms, not just like in terms of the actual adapting the content, but in terms of like successful uh movies and franchises. And go ahead, Tom.

Tom 1:08:20

It turned an entire genre of entertainment from off in the corner to mainstream.

Joe 1:08:29

Yes, it did it paved the way for a lot of other fantasy things like like Harry Potter to be, you know, and uh Game of Thrones and all of those other things like that that that came after it. So successful adaptation. Good job. Shall I shall I uh wrap it up here?

Tom 1:08:47

Yeah, I think so.

Joe 1:08:48

All right, I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, uh join us over in Discord to continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and check out our Patreon page to support us. That way, links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Tom, do you have any final thoughts? You sounded like um, oh my god, what was that game? Uh, you sounded like World of Warcraft, not World of Warcraft, Warcraft II. The orcs or whatever that kind of do like a berserker thing. Jen, you want to take us out?

Jen 1:09:30

I am no man.

Joe 1:09:31

Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.