Jen 0:00

While Tolkien spent decades hand-stitching a linguistic tapestry of Byzantine proportions, using two fingers and a grudge against the moon, Peter Jackson decided the real climax was a giant green cleaning fluid wave. It is the ultimate showdown between an Oxford Don's obsession with historical waning and Hollywood's obsession with massive digital cowards.

Joe 0:46

That's insane. I can't I can't believe I watched this extended edition.

Tom 0:53

It's even more Denethor eating vegetables.

Joe 0:57

This is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big and or small screen. I'm Denethor Perry.

Jen 1:08

I'm Sauron Isgrow.

Tom 1:12

I'm minus Thomas.

Joe 1:16

Damn, you're all better than me. I'm Tomato Perry. Or I could be Rosie Perry. You could be Rosie Perry. All right. Today we are wrapping up the Lord of the Rings trilogy with Return of the King. It's been a long, long journey through these books and through these movies. Yeah, 13 months. Yeah, I'm thinking if I total up all the listening time, uh, plus the movie times, it's about 55 plus hours. Sweet. Yeah.

Tom 1:51

And if you add the podcast recording times, that's like another 20.

Joe 1:54

Yes.

Tom 1:55

20.

Joe 1:57

The episodes aren't that long. Um, I did want to go back and talk a little bit about the book on this one because there's some interesting things about this book. I think more so than maybe The Two Towers. I know we didn't really talk about that, but there wasn't much to talk about. Um, around this book in particular, there's some interesting things that happened. Right. We talked about how Tolkien didn't really write this as a trilogy. This was more of the publisher's decision to make this uh into three book series. And I think there was a lot of uh debate about the top the title of this book. Uh Tolkien himself disliked the title, right? He felt it revealed too much of the story. His preferred title. Go ahead.

Tom 2:39

Sorry, I was gonna say it's not like the two towers, which reveals nothing of the story in any way.

Jen 2:46

His preferred title was War, what is it good for?

Joe 2:54

It was his mistress who uh who convinced him to change it too. No, it was you're close, Jen. The preferred title was War of the Ring.

Jen 3:04

But the uh saying is the War of the Ring, I feel like. That's not like specific to that.

Joe 3:10

Well, this is when like the battles start, really. Like, I mean, Helm's Deep is a battle.

Jen 3:14

Yeah, I guess.

Tom 3:15

But this is when like this Yeah, this is when Sauron armies come.

Joe 3:19

Yeah. I mean, they refer to the War of the Ring in the book, and this is referred to as the War of the Ring, I think, in kind of ancillary materials. But like, I guess not necessarily this book, but just the general war against Sauron in this.

Jen 3:33

But how many people in this battle even know that the ring is like a thing and exists and have any idea that that's just like the main players do. Everybody else is just fighting Sauron.

unknown 3:50

Right?

Tom 3:50

Like, yeah, I think that's a good point.

Joe 3:53

But there's also people who don't even know this is going on.

Jen 3:55

Right.

Joe 3:55

Well like everybody at Hapat. Yeah.

Jen 3:58

Well, not in the book, but in the movie, they don't know.

Joe 4:01

I wanna I'll talk about that. I was like, I think that was my final note uh about that part. Um so there's an interesting thing I read about this too. So uh Tolkien created a new word called uh eukatastrophe that stemmed from this book. And what a eukatastrophe is, is a sudden turn of events in a story which ensures that the protagonist does not meet some terrible, impending, and plausible and probable doom. So this is like that the the opposite of a catastrophe.

Jen 4:33

Oh, yeah.

Joe 4:34

Apparently this stemmed from from this from the Lord of the Rings.

Jen 4:38

Plot armor.

Joe 4:39

That's not plot armor, it's just not going in the direction that everyone thinks is gonna happen. Okay, in a positive way, right? Like this is specifically, oh, everyone thinks the character's gonna die, uh, but he doesn't. It actually everybody lives, basically. Everybody lives, except for Barbeer. And Denathor. And Theodon.

Jen 4:59

Theoden.

Joe 5:00

Yeah. Oh, Theodon does die. That's right. That's true. Theodon dies. But I mean, Theodon's not like a The Witch King. I'm not talking about it.

Jen 5:07

I thought Barragand was dead. Like, I thought he was like, he fell, he's dead, and then all of a sudden he pops up at the end, the guy from Minas Tiras.

Joe 5:15

He's in the movie?

Jen 5:16

Oh no, I'm talking about the book. Sorry.

Joe 5:18

Oh, I was like, I don't remember Barragund in the movie.

Jen 5:21

No, like in the book. Like he was fully dead, and all of a sudden he popped back alive.

Joe 5:26

Yes. Well, he's got his little son. What's his son's name that hangs out with Pippin? Burgle? Yeah, something like so. Burgle. Um that hangs out with Pippin. I'm I'm a little upset they cut that out. We didn't we didn't get a whole side storyline of Pippin and a little guardsman's son hanging out and running around the city and stuff. Um, don't know why they cut that, but um it's moving along.

Tom 5:49

Yeah, no, they have plenty of time.

Jen 5:51

That's in the extended, extended edition, the six-hour version.

Joe 5:54

Yeah. Um, so uh a little background. I remember we talked about the Rohan, how like the riders of Rohan seemed like kind of like a combination of a like a Viking with like the steppe people um uh cultures with the horses and just like with all of that. But apparently uh Tolkien envisioned the Rohirum uh as an idealized version of Anglo-Saxons, had they possessed a cavalry culture.

Tom 6:23

Ah, well, there you go.

Joe 6:24

Yeah, and the Gondor, the cultures of Gondor was inspired by the Byzantine Empire.

Tom 6:29

Um, yeah, I I I think the the um Minus Tir Minus Tireth is uh is directly like a Constantinople like parallel in its structure and and uh the shining walls of the city and things of that nature. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Joe 6:45

Yeah, so just some additional info. So significant portions of the narrative, particularly the Siege of Gondor um and the character of Sam Wise Gamie in this were influenced by Tolkien's experiences in the trenches uh of Som during World War One, which I think we talked a little about. Um he noted that Sam was a reflection of the English soldier, recognized as so far superior to myself, meaning Tolkien. And then there was an epilogue that was taken out of the book. Can you imagine that? More, more than what we get in the book. It featured Sam Wise reading from the Red Book, you know, the the basically what what we see in the uh in the movie as The Hobbit and then Lord of the Rings. Um it's Sam reading from the Red Book uh to his children. Uh apparently C.S. Lewis and other inklings advised against it, arguing it was an anticlimax. So Tolkien reluctantly removed it, though later he expressed regret, feeling it was essential to show the integration of the heroic into the mundane. Which they they do show that part.

Tom 7:51

I think they do anyway, yeah.

Joe 7:52

Yeah, yeah.

Tom 7:53

Tolkien doesn't seem the kind of person that dealt with compromise well.

Joe 8:01

No, I guess not. Well he did. I mean he made it he made the cut, and he also named the book The Return of the King, which is not what he wanted to call it. So and he made it a trilogy, which is not what he wanted to do.

Jen 8:12

What was it supposed to be? One big book?

Joe 8:15

Yeah, I think it was he wanted it to be one big story, a single massive work.

Jen 8:19

That's a lot of pages that wouldn't have gone so well.

Joe 8:23

If you remember from our first episode when we started the fellowship, there was concern over the cost of paper, and they didn't want to publish all of it at once in one giant volume, and then if it was a failure, they wasted all that paper.

Jen 8:36

That's a good point.

Joe 8:38

Yeah, think of the trees.

Jen 8:39

Yeah, I have to. Maybe that's why he put that part in.

Joe 8:44

Yes, all the cutting down of trees. It was sim it was symbolic.

Jen 8:47

Yes.

Joe 8:48

It was a FU to the publishers.

Jen 8:51

Yeah.

Joe 8:52

Worried about paper, I'm gonna cut down all these trees. I mean, Sar Saruman cuts down trees not only in the two towers, but he cuts down trees in Return of the King back in the Shire.

Tom 9:01

Yeah, he does. He makes a Shire into its own little thing. And like that specifically was one of like the drivers, or maybe subconscious drivers at the start of of this, right? Um in Tolkien's lifetime, he saw the the the the home that he grew up in uh the town that he grew up in Britain that was uh you know ideal like a shire-esque uh British countryside to become like suburban industrialized land. Pardon me. But and like that drove him nuts. He was very much not an environmentalist in what we would consider the sense of that term right now, but very anti-industrialization. And Saruman like speaks directly to that. So cutting the scouring of the Shire for the film would have probably driven him as uh insane as any other change that was made in the movie because he felt it was essential to show like what this evil does to even a perfect place.

Jen 10:02

Yeah, I kind of feel it's like in the movie, like uh why did they why did they even bother? Because they could have just stayed here. Not that like Frodo really had a choice, but like I guess like I guess he's supposed to think like, well, if they didn't go, it wouldn't have been as you know, wouldn't wouldn't have gone as well as it did, but it it would be like more of a no place no place escaped this evil.

Joe 10:28

Right.

Jen 10:28

Not even the Shire.

Joe 10:29

Yeah, and that's that's a great point in the book, Jen, that you're making it's uh because they assume that this hadn't stretched all the way over there, but it did. And I think it's weird, I you know, noticing it again this time watching it, and we're literally jumping into the end of the very end of the movie, but when they're all go back to when they'll go back to the the Shire and they're just in the tavern and they're just sitting there like kind of looking at each other, and everybody else is just going about their business as they normally would, the the characters kind of just fade into obscurity, which is a little sad, because there's so much there's so much that they accomplish in the book after you know after the War of the Ring. And they become like, you know, Sam becomes mayor like eight times and Pippin is becomes Thane of the Tooks, and like all they all become like really famous and prosperous.

Tom 11:23

Yeah, becomes like yeah, the Shire becomes like a mini kingdom, really, not just like an ideal like you know, pastoral land. And that's another thing, right? Like it it knows war, right? For the books now, and it and and as such, it now has royalty and it now has you know force of arms and all the rest of that, and it becomes more like men, you know? And the movie is is a much quote unquote happier ending, right? Where it's this is what they fought for. They fought to save this, you know.

Joe 11:58

Yeah, and I mean they fight again. Yeah, they fight again in the book to save it. More directly, right? So do you think if they question here Do you think if they put the scouring of the Shire in the movie that they would have called Saurumon Sharky?

Tom 12:17

Um probably not weird.

Joe 12:23

What would they have called him?

Tom 12:25

I think they just would have called him Sauron. I I think I I mean I will say this. They were never gonna have that in this movie.

Joe 12:32

I know, I know. I'm just saying I'm playing a game, Tom. We're trying to have something fun here.

Tom 12:37

I gotcha. I I I think uh they may call him like S Manny.

Joe 12:43

Manny? Okay Alright, uh should we get into this movie? This very, very long movie. But it moves. The movie moves. I will say that. The movie doesn't feel long, lives up to the name. Okay.

Tom 12:57

It moves, it's a movie that moves. That's what I mean.

Joe 13:00

Oh, I thought you meant I was like return of the king. Yeah, he does return. Like we although they don't really well at the very end, they they really focus on that part, even though I don't know. We'll talk about it when we get to it. We start this movie with an interesting shot of a close-up of Smeagol and a worm. He's got such a grin on his face, too. I I've never seen someone so happy to put a hook through a uh a worm and then somebody else, Deagle, to catch a fish. It was as if he won the lottery when he caught that fish.

Jen 13:34

It's a simple life, Joe.

Joe 13:36

I guess.

Jen 13:37

Until it isn't.

Joe 13:38

Yeah, I guess until you find a ring and get murdered. Yes. I mean, I like this whole scene. I love how I love like the the kind of uh the the the uh graph, I don't say graphic. It's not really graphic, but it is. It's kind of base nature of the fighting that they do. It's it's not like movie fighting, it's more like real life fighting where like people are just struggling and pulling and grabbing and punching and squeezing as hard as they can to get at what they want. One thing though that was strange to me was when uh when Dagle goes into the water, when the foot fish pulls him into the water and he picks up the ring, he just like grabs a chunk of dirt with the like who picks things up like that.

Jen 14:18

Well, that's the shot from the beginning, right? Where it's supposed to be it's isn't it the same shot from fellowship when you see like Gollum picking it up, but you think it's Gollum, but that's but it's so it's very dramatic, and like I think that's why they did it. They use that same shot as well.

Joe 14:37

There's another shot later on with when Smigel's turning into Gollum, where he picks up the ring similarly. Um, which I thought was weird too, but I don't know. It was just very weird. He just grabs like a big chunk of the of the the silt.

Tom 14:52

He wanted to make sure it didn't slip through his fingers.

Joe 14:55

I'm like, nobody picks things up like that. Nobody, right? Wouldn't you pick it up like that? You would you would like grab the ring with your fingers?

Jen 15:02

I don't know.

Joe 15:03

I don't know. Um if he did that, then they would then they wouldn't you wouldn't see him.

Jen 15:07

If this is what we're gonna nitpick, we're gonna it's gonna be a very long episode. It was just very weird. Literally the second shot of the whole thing. It was just very weird to me.

Joe 15:14

Do you think he naturally did it that way, or do you think like Peter Jackson was like, no, no, no, no, don't do it like that. It looks too dainty. You gotta just go for it.

Jen 15:23

I think it was a hand model doing it. They hired it wasn't him doing it like again.

Joe 15:28

Was it a hand den?

Jen 15:31

Yeah.

Tom 15:32

Pi pick uh maybe the instruction is pick this ring up in a way that it is impossible for it to go on any of your fingers.

Jen 15:39

Yeah.

Joe 15:39

Oh, that's also true. Maybe he was trying to do it like a a normal way, and it was he kept dropping it. So he's like, just fucking grab the ring.

Tom 15:46

Just get the fuck out of the ring.

Joe 15:48

Yeah. Yeah. So I did I like this whole I like the opening.

Tom 15:52

Yeah, I I forgot in re-watching it how gross Gollum's transformation Smeagol's transformation to Gollum is.

Joe 16:00

Yes. It is pretty gross. It's almost like he's been, it's almost like he's mutating, or he's been like a like a w like you see in a movie with werewolf transformations, kind of. That's what it reminded me of a bit.

Tom 16:13

Yeah, I think it's a good call.

Jen 16:14

It's funny because I when you see Andy Circus, I feel like, oh, he really looks like Gollum. Like I feel like they, you know, not to be insulting to Andy Circus, but they took a lot of his features into Gollum.

Tom 16:27

Right.

Jen 16:27

But then like while he's changing over, I don't I think that the makeup is like a little a little too much. And then I think it look I think it looks more like him when they do it in the computers. I don't think they could like pinpoint it as well when they did like the makeup and stuff.

Joe 16:43

Yeah, and maybe it that's probably because it was done on the computers, right? Because they used all the they had all like the dots on him so they could kind of capture his facial expressions and stuff. And I guess when it's the makeup on him, you don't really get to see those expressions because he's got whatever prosthetic sign.

Jen 17:01

Yeah. And then the eyes open up.

Joe 17:03

Yeah. So at some point, if you have the ring long enough, you just blink your eyes and they'll turn big and no. Is that is that what happens?

Jen 17:12

I don't know. I think it's just it's just for dramatic effect.

Joe 17:17

That's that's for those people who didn't, if you didn't realize, oh, that's gone. Yeah. Oh shit. It's gone. There's there's a part later on where when Aragorn, I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead, but just because this is like another similar thing. After the the the battle of Hellinor Fields, where Aragorn's at the very end of the movie.

Tom 17:37

I knew exactly what you were gonna say.

Joe 17:39

Where Aragorn's, they're like, oh, we can't beat them. Aragorn's like, well, we can we can draw them out and give Frodo a chance. And he's explaining the whole plan and it goes up with the Legolas, and he's like, a diversion.

Jen 17:50

Like, yep.

Joe 17:51

For anybody who didn't catch the idea, a diversion. I was like, thank you, Legolas, for for making it simple for us idiots who didn't know what was going on. Uh sorry I had to jump to that, but it was the same thing. Oh, that's Gollum. Yeah, the big eyes. Now I get it. Now I get it. Now I get it. So what do we get? We get the scene with the Palantir, right? Uh they they show up at Isengard. Um Pippin finds the Palantir, he he sneaks it away from Gandalf as he sleeps with his eyes open very creepily.

Jen 18:31

Yeah.

Joe 18:32

And then also kind of mumbles while while he's uh while he's doing that. I forgot how creepy that was. And then we get the use once again of slow motion with Pippin and the Palantir. True. And then it's on fire, and then he's kind of on fire.

Tom 18:47

Uh galvanized.

Joe 18:48

Yeah, I guess. That was a little bit more.

Jen 18:50

War Aragorn grabs it and he also like torts.

Joe 18:53

Yeah. Yes. Anyone who touches a palantir just becomes You know what?

unknown 18:59

What?

Jen 19:00

I just threw it. That's another scene that's only in the extended edition when Aragorn looks into the Palantir later on. I completely forgot that that's not in the regular movie. Um he looks in it later, he doesn't do that. And I'm like, oh wait, no.

Tom 19:14

Well, because he doesn't grab it.

Jen 19:15

Right. He's like talking into it. But yeah. I forgot about that.

Joe 19:21

Because that's that's a palantir at Ministeris, right?

Tom 19:24

It might be a it's about it's in Ministerius.

Jen 19:27

Oh, it's before they go to the draws the sword. Yes, yes, yes. But it's after they go to the battle pelado fields.

Joe 19:36

He shows himself to Sauron to like intimidate him.

Jen 19:39

Yeah. But he does in the book, he does that before they even go through the paths of the dead. He does it at like Eterus or one of those places in Rohan in Rohan.

Joe 19:48

Does he bring they bring the Palantir from Isengard with them? I think so. No, because Gandalf rides from Gandalf rides from Isengard directly to Minas Tirith with the Palantir, doesn't he? Doesn't he take it with him?

Jen 19:59

No, he doesn't ride from Isengard to Minus. I think they're traveling back to the Oh, that's right.

Joe 20:04

They go to Helm's Deep, then they go to Edoras, and then he rides to Minas Tirus.

Jen 20:08

I'm pretty sure he does it before that. Because like Elrond's sons come.

Joe 20:15

Yes, right. So I forgot about that. And I will say this, right? Peter Jackson, you brought Elves to Helm's Deep, but then you leave out Elrond's sons showing up and help and the other Rangers.

Tom 20:26

Yeah. Elrond doesn't have sons in this movie. Right. There's just elves.

Joe 20:31

I figured those people standing around him are as sons.

Tom 20:33

Yeah, but there's no indication of that. That's the only kid that matters.

Joe 20:37

Yeah, that's it. We can't have other kids. It's all about Arwen.

Jen 20:41

Too many characters.

Joe 20:42

Oh, it's about Arwen. Uh, we get Haldirs instead.

Tom 20:46

35 seconds of this film.

Joe 20:48

So much of it. It's so much. There's a good there's a funny shot with uh with Pippin and Gandalf when Gandalf puts his hands on Pippin's face.

Jen 20:56

Yeah. Is that like a really big man? Or is it like a fake hand? Yeah, I don't know.

Joe 21:03

Is that a prosthetic hand? Yeah. Or did they have to find somebody with really large hands as a stand-in? And then it made me think of the. It made me think of the Seinfeld episode with man hands.

Jen 21:15

Man hands. Yeah. There's also a part later where like when Pippen is leaning on the railing in Minas Terra, then he's clearly just kneeling in the shop. Because you could see how big his arms are, like going out to each side. And then when it goes from the back, the the person that's actually that height is like, his arms are here, and then it goes back and his arms.

Joe 21:40

Well, there's a similar thing with when Denethor is dragging him out. You can it's clearly just he's dragging him out. He's just not on his, you know, he's not on his feet. But he looks so large. He looks just as large as Denethor in terms of like head size and like, you know, like when Faramir scene with the dragging him.

Jen 21:59

Okay.

Joe 22:00

Yeah.

Jen 22:00

I mean, yeah. I mean they do.

Tom 22:01

Yeah, there's an earlier one too. When Mary's watching them leave as well. Yeah, with that. And I it's like an Aragorn walks up and it's feeling like Aragorn's just like standing. Yeah, standing, and he's like, Yeah. But it's all right.

Jen 22:15

Yeah, listen, if you could save a little bit of money and just kneel down, it's probably just a good thing.

Joe 22:19

Yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do. I get it. I get it. Yeah. It makes sense. We have there's that conversation with uh Aragorn and Theodon where he's like, we gotta go send help to Gondor. And Theodon goes, Why would we help Gondor? Gondor didn't help us. But isn't there a scene in the Two Towers where where our Aragorn's like, call for Gondor's help? And he's like, we're not gonna call for their help. Where was Gondor?

Jen 22:44

Where was Gondor? Where was Gun? That scene. Yeah. Yeah. Where was Gun?

Joe 22:50

Yeah. But they But he's called he's calling them out, but he never called them for help, even after Aragorn told him to call for help. And he's like, no, no.

Jen 22:58

Also they're like they're like fighting Mordor every day. What are they how are they gonna help you? They're like keeping the whole rest of the world safe by keep by fighting Mordor like every day.

Joe 23:09

Yeah, they're like, I guess, like the uh the night's watch kind of uh equivalent.

Jen 23:13

Right. But much like uh much happier. Extra will they or won't they go help.

Tom 23:20

Yeah.

Jen 23:21

And then you have this the the beacons, which are in the book, but like the placement of the beacons is like absolutely ridiculous. I never know about that later on. There's no there's nowhere that a living creature, the peak of Mount Everest, like that's where the beacon is. And there's a guy just living up there waiting to get out of here.

Joe 23:43

Yes. But there, if you notice one of the beacons, it looks like there's a little hut right next to it. On the peak of a mountain, a snowy mountain beak.

unknown 23:52

Like what?

Jen 23:53

Look, it had to be steed, but then I know, but like, come on.

Joe 23:57

Well, my first thought was like, I don't remember there being a big giant mountain range between uh Minas Tirith and Rohan. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of planes.

Jen 24:07

Um shut up, Joe.

Joe 24:10

Shut up, yes.

Jen 24:12

Shut up.

Joe 24:12

Um yes, I thought the same exact thing, and I I remember thinking the same thing when watching the movie the first time. What poor sops got us live on top of those mountains and just sit there for because those things, when was the last time you think those were lit, right? Like fucking this guy's probably never was alive when those things were probably grandfather was probably the last one to light these things. Like, what are this what are these poor people doing? These like what the criminals get sent to do.

Jen 24:38

Maybe.

Joe 24:39

Is there a rotation?

Jen 24:41

There has to be, right?

Joe 24:42

Like you do it for a month or so and then somebody else comes to relieve. You gotta rotate.

Jen 24:47

You can't do that, like for the You gotta bring your whole store of food with you and like yeah, it's ridiculous.

Joe 24:54

If I remember correctly in the book, like they're already lit, right? As Gandalf's riding to Minus Tirith, they're lit, right?

Jen 25:00

Doesn't even issue with lighting them.

Joe 25:02

Yeah.

Jen 25:03

They're like already asking for help.

Joe 25:05

Yeah.

Jen 25:06

And there's no and it's just like, oh, cool, all right, let's go. There's no like dramatic Rohan not wanting to help them. It's like, okay, this is like what we have to do.

Joe 25:15

Yeah, there's just a lot of like uh logistical work that they have to do on the way there, and there's like stopping, right? They stop at a few different places. Well, first of all, they all go to Isengard, don't they?

Jen 25:26

A lot of people go to Isengard.

Joe 25:27

Yeah, it's and not just the Aragorn uh Gimli Gandalf.

Tom 25:33

Sorry, I'm just needing maps. There is Rohan's basically surrounded by mountains uh to the to the west and to the south, right? So they do have to cross a mountain range to get there.

Joe 25:44

Okay. But there is do they have to really cross uh go across a mountain range?

Tom 25:47

They thought they were. But like there are mountains to get to like for for minus Tirith to let them know that there's trouble, like they have to go across a ring of mountains to get to like where the cities are in Rohan.

Joe 26:05

There's a what are you talking about? There's a road that goes down from Rohan straight to Minas Tirith with no mountains in between.

Jen 26:10

Yeah, but you had i they have to see the beacons, so you let them.

Joe 26:14

It's along the mountain range. Okay, yeah. It the road it's I don't know what you're talking about. No, no, I'm I'm looking at the room.

Jen 26:20

You don't have to climb over the mountain to get to it, but like there is mountains.

Joe 26:24

From Adaras, yes, from Adaras to Minas Tirith, it's literally a straight shot, but yes, it it it goes along the mountains, like at the foot of the mountains. So I guess yeah, the beacons are up on the mountains. Right. Okay.

Tom 26:36

It can be seen, you know? Yes.

Joe 26:39

Poor poor guys, that's all I have to say. Hope they get paid well. Yes. We get the scene back in Rivendell where uh Elron decides to reforge the sword. And I'm I don't know. If we showed this to a blacksmith, do you think he would have do you think the proper method to reforge a sword is to just take the two pieces, put them next to each other, and hit them with a hammer?

Jen 27:02

Well they heated them up.

Joe 27:03

I'm pretty sure that's not how you do it.

Jen 27:05

Yeah, like the the metal, like when it's when it's hot, it gets like loose and then it like forge like uh wait.

Joe 27:14

Please, Jim. Please, please tell me.

Jen 27:17

I'm not a blacksmith, but it's like soft. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So you could forge, you know, put the metal back into different pieces and then bang it together while it's hot.

Joe 27:29

So let's get a blacksmith on this. I would say that's a good one. No, they don't they it that's it's flaws of the sword. They have to melt the whole thing down and reforge it.

Tom 27:36

Melt the whole thing down and reforge it.

Jen 27:38

Or maybe they did that and we just didn't see it.

Joe 27:40

No, they should clearly put the pieces too. Two hot pieces of sword stuck together and then somebody hitting it and it became a sword again. But they're elves, so maybe elves are the same.

Tom 27:50

Yes, yes. That's magic hammers that are fusing magic.

Jen 27:56

Magic hammers.

Joe 27:59

Go ahead, go ahead.

Tom 28:00

Sorry. They they directly say like there is a power in this sword that like Aragorn has to like control to wield the sword, right? Like, you know, do you have the power? Only only a king can wield the power of the sword. But the sword doesn't do anything. It's a magical sword that is just a sword. Like it doesn't glow when orcs are around like the other magic swords.

Jen 28:25

I thought he was just gonna like recognize the hilt as the one that killed that killed him the first time. Like it's a king's sword. That's pretty much it.

Joe 28:32

I think in the book, don't isn't there a scene where he raises like the sword and there's like fire or something?

Tom 28:39

Yeah, I think in the book it's a little bit more magical. I mean, it it it has the power to compel the the army of the dead, I guess. Yeah, that works.

Jen 28:48

Yeah. I thought that was just like recognize whoever.

Joe 28:51

Yeah, I get it's more like Yo, you better recognize. I'm Aragorn. Son. Son old green ghost.

Jen 29:02

You will suffer me.

Joe 29:06

Um where was I? I'm sorry.

Tom 29:09

I I think if we're talking chronology of the of the of the movies, uh Gandalf is still uh in Rohan. He hasn't left yet. I'm not sure where we exactly we are. Oh we're bouncing around so much, it's tough to tell.

Joe 29:24

Oh, no, no, I know. I I was looking at my notes here to see, right? So there's the reforging of the sword. Now we get to my right after that's when we get to Minas Tirith.

Tom 29:32

Yeah.

Joe 29:33

Um there's that funny scene where uh Gandalf's telling Pippin, like, don't mention anything about Faramir. And he's like, and don't mention the frodo or the ring. In fact, it's better you don't speak at all.

Tom 29:44

Yeah.

Joe 29:48

And then of course, I mean first thing he does is mention Baromir, speak and mention Baromir.

Jen 29:54

Denethor brought it up first. He didn't fair.

Joe 29:58

He did have the cloven horn, which must have broken in the uh fall over the the waterfall. Yeah.

Jen 30:05

No, it's a magical boat as we learn later.

Joe 30:08

It can't flip. I don't think I don't I think that was just something we made up.

Jen 30:12

No, I think there was something in the two towers. They didn't say it can't flip, but it was like a magic elf boat. So maybe like it didn't flip.

Joe 30:22

Okay.

Jen 30:22

Maybe it keeps maybe it stays upright.

Joe 30:24

But I do remember now they don't find his body though. I think they find the horn and maybe something else. I don't remember of his. I don't think they ever find his body.

Jen 30:32

I don't remember what he says.

Joe 30:34

Yeah. In this scene, right, is this where Gandalf mentions the return he says the title of the movie in this scene? Or it's one of the scenes surrounding this, the return of the king.

Jen 30:45

Yeah, I feel like the the scenes with Denethor kind of get heated early, like the first one, instead of like gradually getting more heated each time he sees him.

Tom 30:58

Yeah, Denethor's not a hundred percent crazy in the first scene, but by the second scene with Denethor where he's eating the tomatoes, he's already full on nuts.

Joe 31:10

Yeah, he's he's a horrible person. And I I feel bad because like calling him this, and and I think I even made a note of this. Like, I w I wish we would have gotten normal a little bit of normal Denethor so we can compare and say, like, oh, he's not a fucking psycho douchebag who basically tells his son, Yeah, I wish you were dead instead of.

Jen 31:28

Well, he does say that in the book, though.

Joe 31:30

No, no, I know, but in the book we get like normal Denethor. We get a little bit of normal Denethor up first, and then he kind of gets worse.

Jen 31:38

Yeah, you're right.

Joe 31:39

And and I'm not just even in the book, I agree, I the same thing. I think we I wish we would get a little bit more normal Denithor. Just just because I feel like immediately I'm thinking this guy's a piece of shit.

Tom 31:49

Yeah, he's his awful reflection.

Joe 31:52

And but they also never explain in the movie, and that this the I think it's in the extended edition that he has a Palantir.

Jen 31:57

Yeah.

Joe 31:58

And Sauron's been showing him all kinds of horrible stuff, basically making him feel like, you know, you're gonna die, everyone's gonna die, and there's not there's no point in fighting.

Jen 32:09

Well, in the book the they have like foresight or something, anyway? Like, or is that just doesn't like the steward have some kind of like a power to see things that could happen? And Faramir has it too, or something like that?

Joe 32:23

I don't do do they? I don't remember that.

Jen 32:25

I can't remember exactly. Unless it's just I don't know, that he has the I'm googling it. Hold on.

Joe 32:31

Oh, that's what I was gonna do. Um I don't remember any kind of foresight. I mean, maybe it was talking about Denethor having the Palantir.

Jen 32:39

Oh, so maybe maybe somebody said that and thought he had it, but it was because of the Palantir. I think. That could be it.

Joe 32:45

Yeah.

Jen 32:45

Denethor gained his advanced knowledge and visions of impending doom by using the palantir. Okay, so I misunderstood that then. I thought uh I guess it was like another character saying saying that. Right. He can always see what's coming.

Tom 32:56

But yeah, yeah.

Joe 32:56

Yeah, Saruman like breaks his will, Denethor's will, um through the Palantir, and that's why Denethor is like this. I like I said, I kind of wish we would have gotten it. I mean, we get a little bit in the in the movie of like Denethor when he realizes what he did.

Tom 33:10

Yeah, there's like one second where he's like, Faramir?

unknown 33:13

Yeah.

Tom 33:14

Let me kill myself.

Joe 33:15

That's a little bit too late at that point. Well, even before that, when Faramir first comes back after he sends him to his death, and he's like, he's like, my son, you know, he's actually seems genuinely.

Tom 33:24

Yeah, but then he's like, everyone d everyone. He's already burning. Yeah. And that's when it beats the shit out of him. Uh it's great. It is great. Um it is. Um We'll get more into that when we can when we actually talk about that. But I think there's a really interesting dynamic I want to get to about like how Denethor is reacting to certain death versus how Theodon does. You know? Because Theodon is also like, well, we're not winning. Like that's clear. You know.

Joe 33:57

But let's let's go out in a blaze of glory.

Tom 34:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 34:01

It's I think it's an important uh Yeah, I like I mean, I like uh Theodon a lot. I like him in this in the movies a lot too. Yeah. I like the whole Ro the Rohan, you know, the Rohiram in the movies a lot. I mean, I like them in the books too, but I really like them in the movies. I they're a lot of cool characters. I wish we got a little bit more Aamer.

Tom 34:21

Yeah, me too. That's that's uh that's one part that I feel like is lacking.

Jen 34:25

I like Ayomer better in the book than a jerk in the movie.

Joe 34:30

Yeah, they yeah, they just kind of cut some a bunch of his stuff. But I mean, like they don't even address him, he comes king, obviously. Well, the other thing.

Tom 34:39

The end of um the movie is just like we're gonna show you some characters, and if you pay attention, you know what happens to them.

Joe 34:47

Well, he doesn't even have a crown on him, but yeah, it's like Eowyn and Faramir are standing like, hey, they're standing next to each other, they got together.

Tom 34:53

Yeah. Oh. They're smiling.

Joe 34:56

Yeah.

Jen 34:56

I know we're not talking about the book, but can I just like after Faramir and Eowyn kiss for the first time in the book, and then Faramir takes Eowyn back to like the guy who's running the Houses of Healing, and he's like, she's cured. Like, like, oh, okay, is that it? She's good? She's good now. Don't worry about it. She's cured.

Joe 35:18

I I also feel bad because not only does Faramir get told that poor Faramir, he gets told, and this is not in the movie, but he gets told that, you know, by his father that he wish he wish it was Baromir who died and not him. And then he gets told by Ewen later on that he she's like, I I love Aragorn. I want to be with Aragorn instead of you, but I guess I'll be with you, basically. I don't know. Like, poor Faramir. This guy's a good guy. He's a real nice guy, he's a real good guy, and everybody's just like shitting on him.

Jen 35:52

Like in the in the book, they're like it's almost like she wants to ride to her death because Aragorn doesn't love her.

Tom 36:03

I feel like they like in I mean I think there's that. I think there's also like she sees no hope, she's no hope for her to be like a full person, right? And at least she can like be with a king and a hero of men or whatever. But if she can't do that, like what has she got? But then she's like, well, I I could just actually be with a guy, I guess, and do stuff.

Jen 36:24

Yeah, because she's like the whole time, she's like, Oh, I just want to fight like the men do, want to do this, and she falls in love with Aragorn, and then she's like, Okay, he doesn't love me, so I might as well just go and fight to the death, and then I don't die, so I'm really depressed about it. But then like this other guy might like me, so I guess I just won't fight anymore, and I'll just go like be a healer or something. I don't like what you wanted, she wanted to fight before she met Aragorn.

Tom 36:52

But also, I mean you killed the king of Agmore. Like, what what what are you gonna do after that?

Joe 36:56

Yeah, you can't top that, especially since there's now like world peace.

unknown 37:00

Right.

Jen 37:01

I guess she's just not like excited about it. She's like, Oh, I wish I would have just died while I did that.

unknown 37:06

Right.

Jen 37:06

And then she's like, Oh, another boy, another boy likes me. Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean a boy likes me, not another one. Yeah.

Joe 37:15

She seems more satisfied in the movie at her ending. Well, although although like it's literally jumps from her killing the Witch King and kind of crumbling on the field, and then her standing next to Faramir later on. So there's no like in between of what happens.

Jen 37:28

Yeah, there's there's so she's awake in the in the movie when Theodon dies, and I feel like that's the last time you see her. But then in the standard edition, there's that shot of Eomere like holding her and she's like unconscious.

Joe 37:40

Yeah. Oh, he finds her on the battlefield, right?

Jen 37:42

Yeah, but that's not in this. So it's too much air.

Tom 37:49

She's clearly hurt.

Jen 37:50

Yeah.

Joe 37:50

But like Oh, yeah, when he crushes, shadows the shield.

Jen 37:53

Yeah, that's that scene is so good.

Joe 37:55

It is really good. Yes.

Jen 37:56

Every time the every time it hits the ground, it's so heavy.

Joe 37:59

It's like Well, I love that perspective shot where you just see how big the Witch King is compared to her and the giant, the giant flail that he has. Yeah.

Jen 38:07

Oh my god.

Joe 38:08

Um The line I think is slightly changed, right? She doesn't say, I am no woman. She says either she says like no woman am I or no man, sorry, no man am I.

Jen 38:19

Oh, that thought.

Joe 38:20

Uh-oh. Oh. Oh no, I blew your spot.

Jen 38:24

No, it's fine. It's fine. You talk about the movie quote or the book quote?

Joe 38:28

Well, the book quote, it's slightly different.

Jen 38:30

The book quote is different. Yeah.

Joe 38:31

Yeah, it's it's the same line, but she just kind of says it a different way. Or whatever. Um, anyway, we've jumped well into the well into the battle list. But um there's a weird line too where I feel like there's another contradictory line in this movie where Gandalf says that Sauron has yet to release his deadliest soldier, and then he just says the Witch King, right? And then he says, That's the one that stabs Frodo on Weathertop. And I'm like, so he was released already. So, like, what are you talking about? Like release him, and then you just told us that he was already released.

Jen 39:03

He was just one of the guys you already met.

Joe 39:05

I don't think that was a Tolkien line. It's just like stuff like that. Yeah, stuff like that just annoys me. Like, come on. It's not even like a continuity error from like two movies ago. It's like it's like you literally in the same breath, you contradict yourself. Anyway, back to Frodo and Sam.

Tom 39:27

It's our first time talking about them, I think.

Joe 39:29

Yeah, it is the first time talking about. This is the first cut to them, I think, at this point, right?

Jen 39:33

Um start with them? Doesn't it start with them? Yeah. Start with Frodo and Sam. That's what Gollum. Oh, I guess I'm gonna go to the city. Because then when the crit when the title card comes up, it's when they're riding into Isengard. But there's a scene before that.

Tom 39:52

Yeah, that's it. That's like what happens in that scene. I don't have any that's the first time, like uh whatever. I think in the first scene, like Sam's like, we should kill him. He's a villain.

Joe 40:02

Uh yes. And there's more Lemba spread in it in the elf leaf ziploc bags.

Tom 40:08

Yeah.

Joe 40:08

Um I have some problems with the whole proto-sam golem story a bit. Um it wasn't my brief.

Tom 40:19

It's very i I I remembered it being longer than it was. It is really like it's only like it's it's over a longer period of time because there's a lot of cutaways, but it's only like two scenes. Really.

Jen 40:31

What which part don't you like?

Tom 40:33

The part the part where like, okay, so the Gollum tricking Frodo into thinking Sam is bad.

Joe 40:40

Yeah, yeah, I didn't like that at all. That was like uh uh that that's what I'm saying.

Tom 40:45

Like he has a conversation with Frodo, then he has the he says that the betrayal. So those are two scenes, and Frodo at the end that's what the whole one scene Frodo's like leave. I choose Gollum over you.

Jen 40:55

I don't understand, like Sam knows what happened, so he has to get all the way down to the bottom, see the Lembus spread, and that makes him want to turn like he doesn't know 100%, but like he knows. He knows what he's gonna do.

Joe 41:06

Yeah, I guess you know, maybe an animal came and aided. Who the hell knows? But yes, yeah, it doesn't make sense in that in that in that regard. And I I forgot about this whole part, and I don't like it. I I just don't like why you have to throw in an extra like Frodo like Gollum's scheming and creating a a rift between Frodo and Sam, and then Frodo kicking Sam out, and then it it affects the whole Shilob scene. Yeah, because there's a whole that whole scene is so cool in the book, and they kind of changed it because now it's just Frodo by himself.

Jen 41:41

Yeah.

Joe 41:42

There's no Sam fighting Gollum first and then Shelob. I mean, he fights Shelob, he does eventually fight her, so that that's there.

Tom 41:49

And I I I think it works for the movie because it's it's you're not setting it up as as uh a climax of a book, you're setting it up as like the middle action of it.

Joe 42:00

Yeah.

Tom 42:01

And uh it's like they get from act one to act two for them. And Sam is such a super badass, I don't care. Yeah, he's my favorite. Like I was like, I was we were watching it earlier today with uh my wife and my older son, and I'm like, Thomas, everybody in this movie is the best, but Sam is really the best.

Joe 42:19

Well, you know what's no, he well, apparently he isn't because at the end when the when Aragorn, you know, decides like let's go attack all the orcs that are surrounded. By the way, by the way, I'm pretty sure amateur generals know that you shouldn't just stand in a huddle and let your enemy surround you, first off.

Tom 42:40

We're we're just trying to milk time, Joe.

Joe 42:43

Yeah, yeah, we're looking at his clock. Um, but Aragorn turns and he's like, Frodo. And then, like, even later on, like I think Pippin or Mary shouts Frodo, and I'm like, what the fuck about Sam? He's there with him. Somebody, somebody recognized.

Tom 42:57

Right.

Joe 42:57

Sam's there with him, too. Uh, and Sam does a lot more. I mean, it the book it I mean, it becomes the Sam story once.

Jen 43:06

Yeah, it's all from Sam's point of view.

Joe 43:07

And the whole Return of the King is right after he's captured by the orcs, Frodo captured by the Ork. It's like this is Sam's story now.

Tom 43:15

Yeah, Frodo Frodo's incapable of of really thinking you're doing much on his own anymore. Right. Yes. Um, and the movie I do I mean, Frodo has a few I can which I this is why I appreciate it, because like Frodo it gives Frodo a little bit of like Frodo is still fighting this, like in that scene, you know, yeah. That he hasn't given up yet, that he's still got it in him, which makes it more of a shock at the end, right? If he's completely like give if he's completely like given up at this point and the whole movie is just Sam dragging him, you're like, Well, it isn't gonna go well.

Joe 43:51

So Yeah, I I agree. No, no, it's I I agree. You uh you don't want to just have Elijah Wood just kind of lying there and kind of moping around for most of the time. Right.

Tom 44:00

He really only mentions the Ring of Fire once, not eight hundred times like he does in the world.

Jen 44:05

I mean, the the the walking to Mordor in the book is like, oh my God, just get there. Or like, oh, what kind of terrain are you walking? Like a lot of it, it's a lot in the two towers too, but this just felt like oh my God. Like I I can't hear about another step that you took.

Joe 44:21

It's not that much. I I I do agree with you, Jen. It's not, it's like a the Frodo Sam stuff is what? Like a quarter of the book.

unknown 44:28

Yeah.

Joe 44:28

I would say, right? That the whole Mordor Frodo Sam stuff. And and obviously the book is after Sheila. There's a lot more time.

Tom 44:35

Wait.

Joe 44:35

There's a lot more time spent in the tower. Like Sam, they cut out, this is one thing that really bothers me. They cut out Sam using the ring.

Tom 44:44

Yeah.

Joe 44:45

So they cut that out, which I think is an important part of the story. And then obviously uh subsequently, like Sam goes to the Grey Havens when he gets old because he's like he's the last ring bearer on Middle Earth. Because he's technically a ring bearer now.

Tom 45:01

But I think that like they've amped up like what happens when you put the ring on so much. There's no way that someone could use the ring in the movies. There's no way someone could use the ring there. Because like Soron would everyone would be able to do that. Well, yeah, yeah. But like, and like the everyone, like all the evil people can see you, they're not invisible to anybody.

Joe 45:27

You're wearing that, like you know, and so like well he does that in the books, they explain it when when he when Sam puts the ring on, he does talk about that, and I feel like it gives him more of more empathy for Frodo because now he he kind of understands a little bit more and just the short time he mentions like the short time that he's carrying the ring about how much of a burden it is for him, and he can't imagine like how you know what's what it's done to Frodo. And I think he even kind of a little bit thinks about Gollum.

Tom 45:53

Yeah.

Joe 45:53

And thinks like how could he feel a little bit of pity for Gollum that much, but a little. Yeah.

Tom 46:01

Um, yeah, but like even and the movie makes it a little, a little uh I I Sam is the only person to have the ring and willingly give it up. Yeah to have the ring in his possession.

Joe 46:14

Welling Well, Frodo unwillingly gives it up, that's true. Unwillingly gives it up.

Tom 46:19

I was gonna say Frodo even Bilbo has to get forced to to put the.

Joe 46:22

No, no, Bilbo, I mean, I'm sorry, Bilbo. That's what I was talking about.

Jen 46:25

Um yeah, nobody could have done this what ha like what happened. Nobody could have gone to Mao Doom and by themselves.

Joe 46:34

Oh yeah.

Jen 46:35

Well he doesn't do I mean, he doesn't do it.

Joe 46:38

No.

Jen 46:39

It's just it's Gollum that you know helps helps him do it, but really doesn't he doesn't do it. He fails, basically.

Joe 46:45

Yes. And I like because I do I do wish they would have the I remember the one thing about this scene bothering me was it's a little it's a little long with Frodo like debating whether he's gonna do it. I feel like in the book, right, Sam and I like this idea, right? Because Sam gets knocked unconscious by Gollum, he wakes up, he goes into the door, and he sees Frodo standing there, and he's like he calls for Frodo, and Frodo goes right right away. Frodo's just standing there menacingly going, the ring is mine, and puts it on. And I I I love in the movie the music when he does when he says, like, the ring is mine, and then you just hear like the quad. Oh like the that is just right to the end.

Tom 47:30

We'll talk about the middle of this movie sometime. Not now.

Joe 47:33

What middle the one part that bothered me was that Frodo goes and fights Gollum for the ring and falls, and then they fall off together, but Frodo hangs it.

Tom 47:41

Like I I much prefer the celebratory Gollum like slipping and just falling into the Yes, I I it's it's cleaner, but what the movie does, and again, this is a it's a it's a slight, slightly different tone than the book in this regard. Like the ring falls on into the lava and does not burn until like until Frodo like regains hope that he can keep on living.

Joe 48:09

And that's like I thought they just wanted a money shot. That's a money shot, too.

Tom 48:13

It is, but it's like when Frodo when Frodo puts his hand out to get for Sam to take him, that's when the the heat takes the ring.

Jen 48:22

Well, I thought it was the opposite.

unknown 48:23

No.

Jen 48:24

The ring was destroyed, and then he could get out because he was just gonna kill him. Okay, all right.

Tom 48:30

Yeah, it's like the last bit of like right.

Joe 48:32

It is a brilliant though, it is a brilliant ending. The way it I mean, the way Gollum's obviously in this story, and you're like, you know, having if you haven't read the book or seen the movie, like for people first time seeing this movie, I'm sure they're thinking, like, what's Gollum's role? Oh, he's gonna be the guide, he's gonna help them get there, and then either he's gonna get like one of them's gonna kill him. Like he's I think my original thought, or I would immediately go to, oh, Gollum's gonna kind of have a redemption arc.

Tom 49:00

Right.

Joe 49:00

And and maybe not like a full redemption, but he'll wind up dying to like save them. And Tolkien's like, nope, that's not what's happening.

Jen 49:08

So it is he in the movie before like other than the beginning scene until that end part?

Joe 49:14

Yeah, he doesn't show up until that part. He's gone in the book. He disappears.

Jen 49:18

Well he comes back at one point and then Sam like almost kills him and then they chase him away. And then he and then he finds them again. But I think in the movie, when they're clo and he's like clever hobbits to climb so high. It's the first time you see him, right? In the beginning.

Tom 49:30

Yeah, well, not at the beginning, in the middle of the movie when Frodo kicks him off the off the cliff and in like finding Shiloh. But yeah, then it's gone. I so I I mentioned earlier, like I was.

Jen 49:41

Oh, because he's in the bo I'm thinking of Yeah, he's in the whole Shila.

Tom 49:44

He's in the beginning of the movie.

Jen 49:46

I'm thinking, yeah, because the book, he's not in it at all, really. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm getting myself mixed up.

Tom 49:51

So I mentioned I was watching it with my son, who's the first time he's watching all this stuff. So like Gollum comes back and then he's like, How is he back? And like going literally everything you're saying, Joe, going completely nuts. Like, what is he gonna do? And then like like when Sam's fighting him, and then Frodo runs, he's like, Yeah! And then when Frodo's standing there, he's like, he's like, just drop it, Frodo, what are you doing? He's like completely on the edge of his seat, and then he's like, Oh no, oh no, I think I know what's gonna happen. Like, completely, like, totally taken. And then Gollum comes back and he's like, wait, no, and like he said, like, like I want to say, like a second and a half before it happens, he's like, they're both gonna fall and die. That's the only way. Like it was like totally like that. That's what Peter Jackson wanted you to think. Yeah, a hundred percent, like everything that they wanted, like they that that he got from it.

Joe 50:43

Well, I and I think I've said this in after the fellowship, but I think Peter Jackson does a really good job of making you feel what you should be feeling in that moment. Right. So, yes. And I like I said, that that the only real thing that bothers me is the is the Frodo and Gollum fighting for it and then falling over it.

Jen 51:00

Yeah, it would it would it's uh Do you think that gives Frodo like a little extra? Like he tried to he maybe he realized No, at that point he wants the ring.

Joe 51:12

Oh, yeah, no, I I totally think he wants the ring back. He's fighting him for the ring because yeah, they're fighting over it, and it's like Sam's watching.

Jen 51:19

Yeah. When he's hanging from the cliff and then he puts his hand up and it's like soaked in blood. It's like, oh my god, he's gonna drop him. Like it's just it's so tense.

Tom 51:28

That's it.

Joe 51:29

Um yeah, and I guess Peter Jackson wanted you to make you feel like Frodo was actually gonna die there.

Tom 51:34

Yeah.

unknown 51:35

Yeah.

Joe 51:36

Um again.

Jen 51:38

It'd be great if Frodo died there.

Joe 51:40

Yes. I really like Frodo dying there.

Jen 51:43

I really like it if Frodo would die there. Yeah.

Tom 51:45

So throughout the two towers and the first I was an hour and a half of this movie, right? Sam's always like, hey, look, you know, when we get back, right? Or like where I'm I'm rationing stuff for the trip back, you know, we'll have enough water for yeah, and like Sam and Frodo's just like Sam. Like and then I'm not worried about that. Right, right. And like right before like their last thing, Sam's like, take the last of the water. We're we're like it's it's it's done. Like Sam's given up, like that they're gonna like it's it's no longer a return trip. He uh even he understands it's a one-way trip, you know? Yeah.

Jen 52:21

When they come out and and and Frodo's like, it's gone, you know. He's like so relieved. I feel like there's like a s a little bit of annoyance from Sam in the movie. And he's like, okay, great. Glad you feel better now.

Tom 52:35

It's like it's kind of hard. Yeah.

Jen 52:39

Well, as long as you're as long as you're good, that's all that matters.

Joe 52:42

Yeah. Feeling better, Mr. Frodo?

Jen 52:44

Yeah. Oh, good. Fantastic.

Joe 52:46

You're missing a finger there. It was bitten off by Gollum.

Jen 52:49

They also change the finger that comes off.

Joe 52:51

Yeah.

Jen 52:51

But I guess the pointer finger is like more, I don't know, easier to show or like look better, maybe, than like the ring finger.

Joe 52:58

It's gotta be very difficult for somebody to bite, like for Gollum to actually just bite the ring finger off. Yeah.

Jen 53:04

I don't know, and he's like holding it like this. And it's I don't know. I don't know.

Joe 53:08

But I mean he does, and it's consistent throughout the movie that he does put the finger the ring. And even Smeagol does that too, I think. He even puts his the ring on the his pointer finger, which I thought is odd, but maybe it's like Sahaba tradition or something. Maybe um back to uh okay.

Tom 53:31

So I have to say, like, I feel like we're a little there's a lot of stuff that we're excited about in this movie, but like for the first half an hour of us recording, like, oh okay, we'll just do all the the the non-froto and Sam stuff, and then for the the second part of this, we'll do all the frodo and Sam stuff. Like, no, no, we're gonna do the front half of all the people stuff, and then the back end of the frodo and Sam stuff, and then for episode two, we'll figure out what we're gonna talk about.

Joe 53:54

Well, I just want to talk about like a couple of more things before we wrap up this episode. Um, so going you know, back to Frodo and Sam when we first when we go back to meet them, when they're with the place where they stop to sleep, they're literally like sleeping at the edge of a cliff on like a precipice. I'm like, why of all places do you stop?

Jen 54:13

There's nowhere else to go.

Tom 54:14

That's the flattest spot they got.

Joe 54:16

But if you notice, like Sam, even Sam, he's like inward a little bit against the ledge, against the wall. Frodo's like, yeah, Frodo's sleeping on like the the edge of the cliff.

Tom 54:26

His hair's in the wind. It's like that. Yeah.

Joe 54:29

Like, what is going on here? Who would do this? Frodo's lost all his science. I like, and then this is where uh Gollum puts uh crumbs on his jacket sis, which is maybe my favorite line in the entire movie. Listening to him go, crumbs is on his jacket sis.

Tom 54:49

The fat hobbins.

Joe 54:55

Crumbs instant. I think it's my favorite line in the entire movie.

Tom 54:59

And his I think Gollum's, oh, what's this?

Joe 55:06

Like a bad magician.

Tom 55:08

Yeah. Yes.

Joe 55:10

It's crumbs on his jackets.

Tom 55:13

Bad topic.

Joe 55:15

And then just just last, lastly, I want to go back to uh Rohan. I want to call, I wanna sorry, I want to call out. Well, that's the next scene, Tom. That's the next scene. This is the muster of it's the muster of the Rohiram. Um 6,000, he mentioned 6,000 Rohiram. That's the number in the book. I will say this. I I've called it out. And now it doesn't seem so strange that there were 10,000 orcs at Helm's Deep, because then if you're saying then there was probably, God knows, maybe more than that, um, that showed up at Helm's Deep altogether. So they could take on 10,000 orcs. So yeah.

Jen 55:53

Did you ever see the joke or the meme or whatever? And it says uh 6,000, less than half of what I hoped for. It says it again, like six thousand and two, more than half of what I hoped for. Love that.

Joe 56:11

But that's the number in the book, so kudos. They kept six thousand in there, six thousand spears. And then Aowin is helping Mary with his armor, and she calls him Esquire. And I thought, is Mary a lawyer now?

Jen 56:27

No, oh square. What do they call him in the book?

Joe 56:31

They called him I don't even know if I don't even know if they'd say it in the book, but it might be Esquire, but I thought I just automatically thought, like, uh is he a Mary a lawyer now? Like what?

Jen 56:42

Esquire.

Joe 56:44

Merry Doc Brandy Buck Esquire. The law offices of Mary Doctor.

Jen 56:49

In Lord of the Rings, Esquire refers to Mary being officially sworn into the personal service of King Thay, then.

Joe 56:54

Yeah.

Jen 56:55

Yeah.

Joe 56:55

Okay. That's a word I thought it would. I thought it was squire. What's the difference then between an esquire and a squire?

Jen 57:01

Let's see. Maybe Lord of the Rings uses Esquire and everybody else uses squire.

Joe 57:06

Yeah. Sirius.

Jen 57:08

Um esquire is a formal honorific used primarily in the United States to denote a licensed attorney. In contrast, squire is an older term that historically referred to a shield bearer. Um no, esquire. This is AI, they don't know. Squire is a shortened alternative spelling of Esquire.

Tom 57:29

Okay.

Jen 57:29

It's the same thing.

Tom 57:31

Okay.

Jen 57:31

Okay. He's not a lawyer. I'm just a simple uh Hobbit lawyer.

Tom 57:38

I don't understand human world.

Joe 57:43

Yeah. Um, so right, this is so the muster of Rohan, we get that scene. We get a nice scene between um Aragon and Ao N too. I think that's we were talking about that before. And then they just they just camp by the path to the the passage.

Tom 57:58

Even though none of the horses are okay with it. Yeah.

Joe 58:01

None of the horses are okay with it. It seems like though this is like a regular muster point, so they're used to it and they're they just deal with it.

Tom 58:07

Um it seems like most of the troops are actually on the bottom of this giant hill that they're on. Yeah, what it's just just there there to see everybody. I imagine it's literally like we we can see everybody from here, so this is where the king's like uh you know entourage is.

Joe 58:26

Yeah. Um and then Aragorn decides that he's leaving. Well, Elrond comes. I should say. Elrond comes.

Tom 58:34

Let's do the Elrond scene, and that's a good like Yeah.

Joe 58:37

I like they try to throw you because he's having dreams about Arwen, and you're like, oh, is that Arwin who showed up? And then I could no, it's Elrond.

Tom 58:43

No, it's like a dark rider and weird, and then no.

Joe 58:47

Yeah. Um Elrond gives him the sword, and he's the one who says you gotta go to the paths of the dead and get the uh the armies who are cursed.

Jen 58:56

Well, Gandalf tells him to to go there too before he leaves.

Joe 59:00

Does he? Oh, I forgot.

Tom 59:01

Yeah, he says, Take this path, you're gonna take a different path, you're gonna take this path.

Jen 59:04

Then he's like, Alright, whatever.

Tom 59:05

Yeah. And he's like, I don't really want to. But I was El Ron gives him and us all the information that we need about what why why he needs to go there, what's there.

Joe 59:18

Yeah. And like I I could not pause this movie because if I did, then I would not be able to make it to the podcast in time. So I would like get up to go run and do something real quick while without pausing. So I must have missed that part.

Tom 59:32

Um Yeah, it's not like when when when uh when Gandalf leaves and he's like, I'll be it's a three-day journey, and then he's like, You're going to take a different path.

Joe 59:42

Yeah. Uh oh, I thought, does he mention the paths of the dead there though?

Jen 59:47

He doesn't say he says the Dimholt Road.

Joe 59:50

Yeah, the Dimholt Road. Oh, okay. I'm that's the part I missed because I do remember him saying you could you're gonna take a different path, and I was just thinking, like, well, yeah, you're gonna go with the Roherim. Um but the Dimolt path, okay. Um, yep, Aragorn just decides to leave. Everyone gets upset that Aragorn and Gimli and Legolas are leaving.

Tom 1:00:09

They don't really care about Gimli and Legolas.

Joe 1:00:11

Yeah, maybe not as much. More about Aragorn leaving. But he's just like, no, I gotta go.

Tom 1:00:17

And Theodon's like, we're going to die. It's going to be great.

Joe 1:00:21

Let's ride. And he doesn't tell anybody what he's going to do, though. No, but I feel like in the in the book, they all he says, like, I'm going to the path right? Doesn't he say what he's going to do?

Jen 1:00:33

Like, don't go there.

Joe 1:00:34

Yeah, they're like, don't. He's like, and he's like, no, we're gonna need those people. Right.

Tom 1:00:39

This is just like I'm uh I'll see you when I see you.

unknown 1:00:43

Yeah.

Joe 1:00:43

Well, even the scene with him and Aowin, she's like, Don't go and whatever. And she never says, like, well, why why the fuck are you going there? Like, why are you leaving us? Where what are you doing? She never asks that, which is, I think, the first question I probably would have asked if I were her.

Tom 1:00:57

Like, yeah. Yeah. Just where are you going? Yeah.

Joe 1:01:01

Yeah. I guess we'll we'll find out on the next episode of Shelf Discreet. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, join us over in Discord. Continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe. Rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.