Joe 0:00

An obsessive philologist spends 12 years crafting a world solely to give his invented languages somewhere to live, only for a legendary ensemble cast to be dragged through literal trenches of cinematic dirt, rain, and grueling night shoots. It's a story where the author was more worried about lunar phases than plot twists, and the studio was more worried about selling three tickets instead of one. I had to remove three dead birds from my pond today.

Jen 0:44

Oh no, why?

Joe 0:46

I they were dead and in the pond, that's why.

Jen 0:49

What kind of birds?

Joe 0:50

I think they were all blue jays.

Jen 0:52

Oh no. And we're trying to figure out and kill them?

Joe 0:56

Well, I don't know. Out of three dead birds, I I don't know. Were they fighting and fell into the pond?

Tom 1:04

The worst uh Bob Marley song ever.

Joe 1:08

Three dead birds.

Tom 1:09

Yeah.

Jen 1:10

Three dead blue jays.

Joe 1:12

The on my window. Three dead blue jays.

Jen 1:16

In the pond.

Joe 1:18

I don't know. Uh we were trying to figure out why. Like Sarah first Sarah tells me there are two, and then when I was like, okay, I gotta go take these out, so I go grab the shovel, and I'm like, oh no, there's three birds in the pond. I don't know how that happens.

Jen 1:30

You didn't do an autopsy on one of those?

Joe 1:32

No, and then Sarah got me worried. She's like, what if they had like bird flu or um Well, don't drink the pond water. Well, no, that's not happening. Um she was like, Maybe there's something in the pond water and they drank the pond water and that k and that killed them. West Nile. Is there West Nile still going around, Holger?

Jen 1:50

Sheck, if you need to report it. Interesting.

Tom 1:53

Um, especially if you saw no signs of birdly harm. Birdly harm.

Jen 2:01

Oh wow. Birdily harm. That took three of them. Each one of us got it at a different time.

Joe 2:11

Let's see. Let's see what the old internet says. Drowning, predation, poisoning, or disease. Birds often fall to ponds while trying to drink or bathe, especially if the edges are steep or slippery. You know what? The pond water was low because I guess animals constantly drink out of that water, so like I was about six inches low. So I wonder if they went in there to drink and then they couldn't get out. Why cats, there's no pesticides in there.

Jen 2:37

Why? It's like too slippery on the side for them to get out and their wings were wet or something. Well, it's like it's plastic on the side.

Joe 2:43

It's like a you know, it's a plastic pond lining. And and the water was down about six inches, so it's possible maybe they went in to get a drink and then they couldn't get out.

Jen 2:51

That's horrifying. Okay, way to start the show on a high note.

Tom 2:56

Yeah, really?

Joe 2:58

Yeah, it was uh Vlad Guerrero Jr. Um I can't think of any other blue jays off the top of my head.

Jen 3:05

They just played Kirk. See all the blue jays?

Joe 3:08

Uh Andre Kirk, yeah.

Jen 3:09

Yeah. Both of those guys are on my fantasy team.

Joe 3:12

Okay.

Tom 3:12

That's right. Robbie Ray is easy. I think he's still a pitcher for them.

Joe 3:16

Right. I think it's time to start. Yes. Uh this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big and or small screen. I'm Grima Perry.

Jen 3:29

I'm Ao and Isgro.

Tom 3:33

I'm sorry, I'm so stuck on Grema Perry.

Joe 3:36

Um would you like Joe Wormtongue? How about Joe Wormtongue sounds better?

Tom 3:41

The ladies like it more, Joe, I think. No. Um I'm King Tomaden.

Joe 3:50

Oh, King Tomaden.

Jen 3:52

Oh, wait, wait, I'm gonna go back. I'm Ao Gen.

Joe 3:55

Shall we just do the redo the intro? You want to do the whole thing?

Jen 3:58

No, it's fine.

Tom 3:59

No, I want to keep the worm thing in.

Joe 4:01

All right.

Tom 4:02

We're starting she said.

Joe 4:04

We're starting the second film and book in the series of The Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers. I'm gonna say it right now. It's my least favorite of the three movies for sure. I have lots of things that I didn't like about this uh this picture. Moving picture. Yeah. Many pictures. Uh so like we don't we really don't have to go into the book. I think we talked a lot about the publication of the book. Uh the one thing I did want to just discuss is, and it's funny because while I was reading this book or re or listening to this book, um, I thought again, what are the two towers again? Which towers are the two towers? And everyone's having a whole discussion about this. I think with uh Rob. Um, and I knew what one's definitely Orthanc.

Tom 4:49

Yeah, that's locked in.

Joe 4:51

That's locked in. And and apparently uh Tolkien had was struggled with this too, as to like which towers were the two to he was struggling to title this book, and I think he settled on the two towers reluctantly because it was confusing as to like what are the two towers? Right. Is it uh orthanc and barador?

Jen 5:11

So you never you never thought it was Minus Morgul and Barador?

Joe 5:15

No, one towers.

Tom 5:20

Okay. Like that's that's it's really the one tower.

Jen 5:24

Yeah, in the movie they're very clear it's Orthanc and Barador.

Tom 5:27

Yeah.

Jen 5:27

Because Meanus uh and I think that but that the reason is because Minus Morgul isn't in this movie. Right. So that was very easy for them to just decide on what the two towers were gonna be.

Joe 5:36

Yes, I agree. It is and it is Minus Morgul is the uh is the second tower that I think Tolkien settled on, although you know it still could be you know. Yeah, I mean they go see what's not a tower though.

Tom 5:48

It seems like they go to Minus Morgul. Yeah, they go to Minus Morgul. It makes more sense.

Joe 5:52

Yeah, not Parator.

Jen 5:54

So they're like they're here and the other people are here.

Joe 5:56

So it's now I kept getting confused when I was listening to the book because they mentioned the moon tower in the book, which is funny because I think of whenever I hear that, I think of um dazed and confused. Uh Party at the Moon Tower. That's what I wanted to say every time I heard the moon tower. And I was trying to figure out is that a separate tower in the book, or is that mean is that a ta is that Minus Morgul? Is that a nickname?

Jen 6:21

Well, it used to be called Minas Ithil, right? Before it changed. And I think I think that's part of that. When it was like nice and good. They don't call it the Moon Tower anymore.

unknown 6:30

No.

Joe 6:31

As far as I remember or certainly no parties going on there.

Jen 6:36

Well, no parties we would want to go to.

Joe 6:39

No. I mean the orcs seem to have some fun over there.

Jen 6:42

But uh I I know I'm jumping way to the end of the book, but I love the two orcs who are just like chatting about work shit while they're in Kiryac. Just like I haven't seen you in so long. And they're just like going off back and forth about where they've been stationed and shit.

Joe 7:00

So not in the movie.

Jen 7:03

No, no.

Joe 7:04

Because we don't get it. And I don't even remember if that's in their I don't remember if there's a conversation.

Jen 7:08

That conversation happens in the Return of the King movie, but there's like orcs talking to each other about Frodo, but not to that extent of like two guys who used to work together and now are seeing each other after a while.

Joe 7:19

It's well, they're like they're like soldiers who used to like maybe they went through boot camp together and they're stationed in separate places.

Jen 7:26

These bosses suck. Like I can't wait till this whole thing is over. We could like take a couple of our friends and just go get some a nice place to live. I kind of feel bad for these guys. It's like it's not gonna go well for them.

Joe 7:37

Yeah, what they're hoping that like this whole thing ends and then they could just kind of go off, like find a quiet place and maybe open a general store or something together.

unknown 7:47

Right.

Tom 7:48

Just some nice place where you can occasionally eat a person that's all they need.

Jen 7:51

Like we don't need to do this. This is like a lot with this Sauron and everything. We can just like finish this conflict and then retire and go somewhere peaceful.

Joe 7:59

This is like Lord of the Rings grapes of wrath. The plight of the uh migrant worker orc.

Tom 8:08

It's like uh it's like the the conversation in clerks about how Luke Saber killed a whole bunch of like contractors who were working on the.

Joe 8:15

Innocent people, yeah. The second Death Star, right?

Jen 8:19

Oh man. Uh that's the book, not in the movie.

Joe 8:22

That's the book, not in the movie. I mean, this this movie ends well uh on the side of Frodo and Sam. This movie ends well before um the book does, and that's you know, it's one of my issues with this because they just put in crap to fill in to fill in Yeah.

Jen 8:39

They gave them a but but also like the now we're getting into Return of the King, but the what is it, the scouring of the Shire is half the book or something, right? So like No, it's like a chapter or two. Oh, okay. Well that's they had to like fill in it's the Return of the King is much shorter. Yeah.

Tom 8:56

Yeah than the the others, right? So they they they had to move stuff over.

Joe 9:00

I think But they could have just put more more of the battle at the uh what's it called? Oh god, what's the Palinor Fields? No, no, the Palinor Fields of the King. They do focus a lot on that.

Jen 9:11

That's a pretty big battle.

Joe 9:12

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They could have been a lot of people.

Jen 9:13

But they also like a lot of the end of the other people's story is from Return of the King where they go to Isengard. Yeah, anyway.

Tom 9:21

Let's let's get let's get to it. Like there are, and I I don't want to be too negative because I love this movie and there's a lot of great parts in it, but there are a number of things that also really bother me. And like I don't want this to be like a a uh a bitch fest, but like as the movie goes on, they really pile up.

Jen 9:40

Yeah, I have a lot more notes for this one. Yeah, I have a lot of fun. But they're not all bad, they're just some of them are funny.

Tom 9:45

No, so I some of them, I mean, the there's a a lot of this movie is terrific, and I don't want to this has got the most shit that I'm like, why is this in this movie?

Joe 9:53

Yes. Uh elves. Uh elves.

Tom 9:56

Well, we'll get when we get to that point when we go through it. We'll talk about uh we'll talk one of my favorite stories about watching this movie. When you we when we watch the extended edition, and and uh well we'll we'll get we'll get there when we get there.

Joe 10:10

I feel like Peter Jackson really got his money worth out of the drone camera. I feel like he was like, we gotta get as many drone sweeping drone shots of vistas of of New Zealand in here as it opens right away of a drone shot of them running. It's just running. Like let's make let's just make three people running very cinematic and epic. Um there's a lot of it.

Jen 10:32

I love that though. That's like and you're looking around, like a lot of it is real. There's not a like some of it is just like everything you see exists. Yes. There's no like CGI in the background of this. Like they they flew in a helicopter up to a you know a vista or a top of a mountain, and they just ran and shot a bunch of shit. Right. And that's it. It's real.

Tom 10:54

Well, yeah, as long as you don't look at Gimli's face. Well, yeah.

Jen 10:58

That real man was up there, the other guy, not John Rice Davies.

Tom 11:02

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 11:03

Yeah. Well, that's I guess they probably purposely did a lot of those types of shots because of that they had to use stand-ins for those things.

Tom 11:12

Well, you also can't have the three of them running when John Rice Davies in real life like is is significantly taller than the both of them.

Joe 11:18

Yeah, and much older and probably couldn't run them.

Tom 11:20

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 11:21

Um, and I feel like you mentioned they're natural sprinters, but I think in the book it's reverse. He mentions that dwarves are good at long distance running because they're very like they have a strong, you know, constitution.

Tom 11:31

It's just a it's just a joke in here that he's that he's falling behind them a little bit.

Joe 11:35

Well well, Gimli is like just comic relief in this entire movie. Poor Gimli, he's just the butt of every joke.

Tom 11:40

Um Yeah, he's still badass, but he is very it is a lot of humor.

Jen 11:45

But a lot of the jokes were in some of them were in the book. Not like all of them, but some like the counting and stuff like that. Like that, you know, that was in the book. The orcs, the book.

Joe 11:55

I don't I don't yeah, I don't I don't consider that like comic relief on on Gimli's part. That's just more of like a but like there's a lot of short jokes like this natural sprinting, and he's kind of always the one who kind of gets made fun of and taught tosses.

Jen 12:11

Yeah.

Joe 12:12

Don't tell the elf. Yeah, horse riding, the beards, right? The dwarf women.

Jen 12:17

Yeah. The big armor. It's the beards. Yeah. The big armor that drops onto the ground. It doesn't fit him.

Tom 12:24

Yes, yes, yes, yes. He's like even Aomer like gives him a short joke the first time he meets him.

Jen 12:29

Yeah. Well, that is in the book too.

Tom 12:31

I know.

Joe 12:31

Yes. Yeah, that is directly from the book. You know what's funny and ironic about this, about the dwarf, the whole conversation with the dwarf women, is that they used a lot of women as riders of Rohan and put on like prosthetic, you know, like fake beards and mustaches because they were like they use like equestrian, you know, they had to get a lot of people who knew how to ride, so they had to also get women in there because they couldn't, I guess, find enough men. Um, and they just put like facial hair on them and dress them up like men.

Tom 12:59

That is funny. Cool.

Joe 13:00

Yeah. Um, and Sauron mentions right away in this, like the he mentions the union of the two towers. Like he was like, we gotta get the title in here and and go forth. And then that that clears everything up, right? He's talking about Barador and uh and Orthank.

Tom 13:16

My first significant note is it's about, I want to say it's eight minutes into the runtime of this movie. And um, you know, Legalis is and they're all tracking and they're talking about like, okay, we think we're a day behind, I see this, da da da da da. And like literally eight minutes in, and I turned to to my wife and I said, Um, I'm pretty sure Orlando Bloom has more lines already in this film than he does in the entirety of Fellowship of the Ring.

Joe 13:42

Yeah, he's got a lot of he's got a big part in this.

Tom 13:44

He does, and I and then that's going into the good part about this, like and this is the way the story is structured, but they all break up and now people have a chance to shine. Orlando Bloom was just in the first movie, shooting arrows and walking on snow. Yeah. And like now he's he gets to do stuff. And Gimli is, you know, it's he's he's an object of of comedy, but he gets to do stuff too.

Joe 14:08

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I skipped over the opening, is right, is like a recap of kind of of what happens in the Fellowship of the Ring, or or at least with Gandalf. And then you get to see the whole scene of him falling with the Balrog, which was pretty cool. And you know, we get obvious we get one of the probably one of the coolest lines ever in cinema. Uh smot his ruin upon the mountainside. That's just one of the fucking coolest lines ever.

Tom 14:35

It is.

Joe 14:36

I smoked his ruin upon the mountainside. I want to smite someone's ruin on the mountainside.

Jen 14:41

Uh find a Balrog.

Joe 14:43

Yeah. Oh my god. That's easy. Um we find more orcs are buried in the ground in some sort of weird membrane.

Jen 14:54

Yeah, I I don't know. Are they is he growing them?

Tom 14:57

He's growing them, yeah. Or how?

Joe 14:59

Is he? I thought they were digging them up out of the ground. Like they've been in the ground, they planted them.

Jen 15:03

Like like it's like a beehive, and they're in like I don't know. I don't know.

Tom 15:07

It seems some sort of uh birthing sack that they're in. Yeah.

Jen 15:13

But they come out like immediately ready to and they know what they're doing.

Joe 15:17

Maybe they're like cicadas and they, you know, they molten the ground and come out every 17 years.

Tom 15:23

The the like these are regular orcs somehow mutated, right, into the urukai that can run through the day and they're bigger and stronger or whatever. So I imagine that's why like they're buried as regular orcs and they come out as uricai. Like a little bit.

Joe 15:38

They just very logic orcs or something.

Tom 15:40

Like, well, I imagine there's a genetic magic that's going on here that's that's turning them into that's not important.

Joe 15:48

It is important. It's definitely not important. They're supposed to be, aren't they like supposed to be like half man, half orc, right? They're like orcs bred with men.

Tom 15:55

That's what that's what it is. He just breeds them. And here it's you know that would take too long.

Jen 16:00

We don't have that much time. It's only a three-hour movie.

Joe 16:02

You don't want to see like a scene of like an orc and a I don't think there's a oh god, no.

Jen 16:08

And I don't think there's any female orcs either.

Joe 16:12

No, probably not.

Jen 16:13

That I that we see. I'm sure there are.

Tom 16:15

They're all baking more orc high in the back. That's true. I guess they have to be.

Jen 16:20

I think it would make more sense if it was men coming, like the the men that fight for s for Sauron impregnating orcs. I like that better. That sits better with me.

Joe 16:33

That's likely not how it works.

Jen 16:34

It sits better with me than the other way around. That's all I'm saying.

Joe 16:38

Yeah, I guess so. Being a woman, you would say that, I think, as opposed to it.

Jen 16:46

But anyway, so we rip the membrane off and they're ready to go.

Joe 16:50

Yeah, we got some more orcs. Like I I thought he was digging them up, that's why they were doing all that digging.

Tom 16:55

But No, I think that's that's to make the engines of war. It's just digging, he's just destroying the earth, turning it all into forness furnaces and and machinery and whatnot.

Jen 17:05

How many how many uh unborn orgai drowned in after the dam was broken? Yeah. They weren't ready yet.

Joe 17:13

No. Now they're still uh I don't know, gestating.

Tom 17:18

Yeah, kind of yeah they're in the larvae stage now. Yeah, yeah. It's like a butterfly, I guess.

Jen 17:25

Yeah, the orcs go into the cocoon and then they come out as a rock eye. That's what I was thinking. It was something like some a little bit of magic sprinkled on.

Joe 17:35

Someone just walks around and sprinkles stuff all over the place.

Jen 17:40

Shaking some tinkerbell around. Yeah.

Joe 17:42

Why not? It's in the extended edition, I think, right? That scene.

Jen 17:47

Yeah, we missed that one. We didn't watch it.

Joe 17:49

Um I forgot about the one shot too, like right up in the front where you see the Nazgul are back. And they they like it's a really tight shot, so you're like, oh, the Nazgull are back, and you could tell obviously they're riding something, and then it like pan it like zooms out or pans out, and you're like, oh, they're flying. Ooh, that good camera trickery there. They're riding dragons now.

Tom 18:10

That's right.

Joe 18:11

I uh I have a fun fact about the the um the scream of the Nazgull. Okay. Sure. So you want to know what that how that sound was made for the movie?

Tom 18:23

Yes.

Joe 18:24

Uh so uh co-writer Fran Walsh, they recorded her screaming while suffering from a severe throat infection.

Tom 18:33

Oh jeez.

Jen 18:34

Who is the person who was like, that would be good for the movie? You just go in there and scream.

Joe 18:39

Yeah. Poor Fran Walsh has a throat infection, and they're like, whoa, perfect. Scream, scream, keep screaming.

Tom 18:47

Yeah.

Joe 18:47

Yeah. So you can think of her every time, um, every time you hear an askle scream.

Tom 18:53

Great. An angel gets swings. Um what do we got?

Joe 19:01

We got the we got them tracking the uh the two hobbits, Mary and Pippin. And of course, like we we could bring this up right now, right? They they're obviously not gonna do this like they do in the book, where the first half of the movie is just Aragorn and Gimli and the goal is the story, and then second half. That that doesn't make any sense. And I makes sense to me that they they you know edited it together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you would never do that in the movie, so it would be kind of boring too.

Tom 19:26

Yeah, especially because I mean a lot of what Frodo and Sam are doing is just kind of walking around talking. And like it's dramatic talking, but there's not like a ton of shit that happens to them. No.

Jen 19:39

There's a lot of times where they're like, they went down into a vale, and now they're in a pit, and now they're in a valley, and the wall's here, and here's the water, and all every different landform they could ever describe. And I'm trying to picture it in my head, like I I don't know. Just get to the next spot and let something else happen. Because I can't figure out what you guys are walking through anymore.

Tom 20:01

Yeah.

Jen 20:01

It's a lot.

Tom 20:02

Once they pass the dead, once it passes the dead marshes, it's like, yeah, it's just a lot of different types of lighted landscape.

Joe 20:08

Um they just walk somewhere and then they're like, no, no, we can't go that way. Okay, let's try this way. Let's go.

Jen 20:15

Also, there's another change that they made is that most of the time Frodo and Sam and Gollum are traveling by night because Gollum doesn't like the sun. But I realized that would be kind of hard to do in a movie and a big problem because just shoot it in the daytime. It's okay. We can ignore that part of the start.

Joe 20:31

Yeah. Well, as they're getting as they get closer, too, right? Don't the nights get longer, they mention in the book.

Jen 20:37

Yeah, it starts getting darker and there's a part in the movie where they say that, but I don't know if it's in this movie or not. Where they wake up and think like, no, it's still it's daytime. You're just it's just getting darker. It might be maybe I think it might be in the next movie.

Joe 20:52

Yeah, okay. Well, whenever they show those wide shots of Mordor, it's just dark. It's just always dark. Even when it's daylight over where wherever they are, it's it's always nighttime there. Okay. I don't know.

Jen 21:07

Yeah.

Joe 21:10

Yeah. What was I gonna say? Oh, Shadow Facts. Oh, right. So get right, Gandalf's not dead. Surprise everybody. What? Gandalf Gandalf is back. He's this is Gandalf the white man.

Tom 21:23

This is just what the the the trailer for the movie is just a reveal that Grant Gandalf's still alive.

Joe 21:28

Oh, it's in the trail. Okay, it is in the trailer. And they get to it right away, so yeah.

Jen 21:32

I mean, yeah, you see well, you don't know from the beginning if he's alive or not, really.

Tom 21:37

They make you think it's Saruman. Yeah. If you don't know. Yeah, they even put their voices together and face, unlike they kind of mess around with it. And Aylmer's talking about how Saruman's walking around the woods.

Joe 21:49

Yes, the white wizard he says.

Jen 21:51

I always thought when Gandalf says they met someone they didn't expect. I thought it was talking about him, but in the book they don't meet him there. So he's talking about tree beard. Says they met someone they didn't expect. Does that comfort you? And I was like, oh, I always thought he meant like me. Because they did because they do in the movie, but in the book they don't. So I guess he was talking about tree beard in the book.

Joe 22:13

In the book. Yeah. So what was this? Oh right. So get out Gandalf's not dead. And you know what's fun too? They they kind of stick to it in the movie, the story. Because in the book it's very also like he's fall, he's talking about him falling and falling, and then he's like on top of a mountain. So somehow they're he's falling through the earth, and then all of a sudden he's back out. He I don't know, he fell through the other side of the earth.

Jen 22:35

He says from the highest peak to the lowest, whatever. So I just thought like they got down and then they went back up. Yeah, like they like they're gonna be.

Tom 22:46

Oh Princess Pride.

Joe 22:48

I pictured that he literally went through the earth and came out the other side. That's what I pictured.

Jen 22:54

It could have been that, but I thought he like, yeah, they went down and then they then the fight continued and they went back up. I don't know though. Could have been.

Tom 23:00

I always pictured that, but like I think like geography, geography-wise for the Middle Earth, like that doesn't work. There's nothing on the other side. Number one is gone.

Joe 23:10

He just he just goes, I think they're just on a mountain at one point at that point, so you don't really see anything else. So could be the other side. Could be, yeah, it could be, yeah.

Tom 23:18

Whatever.

Joe 23:18

But Gandalf's alive. Uh he he summons Shadowfax, who is the Lord of the horses. I'm not sure how they how do you how does one become lord of the horses? I would wonder.

Tom 23:30

Is there a I imagine it's a lot of tap dancing kind of a thing?

Jen 23:34

I thought it was like a hereditary, what do they call it? Like you you you know, passed off. Yeah, his father's father was the lord of the horses and now he is.

Joe 23:43

There's no elect election and horses don't vote on who the lord is?

Jen 23:47

Um, I don't think you can vote for a lord. It's not the president of the horses.

Joe 23:53

Well in Parliament they have the House of Lords as for those guys, right? Some of them are lords.

Tom 23:58

Yeah, you don't just keep it. Oh, I don't think anyone's for the House of Lords, actually.

Joe 24:01

Oh no, only the House of Commons.

Tom 24:03

Yeah, but but there are places that have elected kings. That's true.

unknown 24:07

Right.

Joe 24:08

Alright, well, we'll have to check the Tolkien's notes about Lord of Horses in Shadow Facts there. Right. Um one thing that's different, and I'm not sure why, and maybe I missed it, but the f when we when Frodo and Sam first capture Gollum, they don't they they don't make Gollum or Frodo doesn't make Gollum swear by the ring to right because in the book that's how they like finally trust him, quote unquote. No, he does.

Tom 24:36

So Gollum.

Joe 24:37

He swears by the ring in the ghost in the movie. Yeah, okay. I mustn't have missed it.

Tom 24:40

He swears swears, and they're like, nothing you say is trustworthy. How can I trust you? And then he swears on the ring.

Joe 24:47

Okay, he does. I must have missed it. I'm sorry. I did fall asleep.

Jen 24:51

I swear on the precious.

Joe 24:53

Okay. Alright, so I take that back. But it doesn't end up mattering, so no, I mean Sam is right the whole time.

Jen 25:02

Well, 100%.

Joe 25:04

Um but I get you get why Frodo wants to trust him. I mean, he says it. He says I have to know that it's possible to come back.

Jen 25:13

In the movie it feels like there was a chance of Smeagol being Smeagol until the Faramir thing.

Tom 25:21

Right.

Jen 25:22

And then he flipped back. Like when he says, You leave now and never come back. Between that and the and when Faramir captures him, it's almost like you think that he that it's it happened. But in the book, there's really never that moment. You're never with No. He has a conversation with himself, but never you never think like, oh, he's good now.

Tom 25:39

Yeah.

Joe 25:39

He's he doesn't tell like Gollum to in the book, right? To like lean on the thing.

Jen 25:46

He's good and bad. He's like, but you don't really know, but then like there's never like a moment where you're like, oh, he was good and now he's bad again. Right. That doesn't happen.

Tom 25:54

It's also like, I mean, you can't you can't cure schizophrenia by willing it away, too.

Jen 25:59

So like Yeah, so it wasn't really gone. You just thought that maybe it was because it wasn't really it was ring-based schizophrenia.

Tom 26:06

That's true. Yeah, not only does he come back, but it comes back and like Smeagol's also evil now.

Joe 26:16

So you were right. Now we're both, yeah, we're both evil. Yeah. Um there there's a scene here where it's like it drives me nuts to this day. And when I watched it again, I'm just like, this is the worst blocking perspective of ever. What where they're at the gate, right? And and Sam slides down and they're the soldiers walking, and it looks like they're right there.

Tom 26:39

Yeah, I think it looks like well, the thing looks like a rock.

Joe 26:46

No, no. Before that, when Sam first slides down, they look over and they see like they see the like the dust and like the kick-up, but they don't see Sam. I don't know how you don't see Sam, but then like they're right there where he's sliding down, and he's they still don't see him. They're just like looking, and they and they never show you a shot, like a wide shot of the distance between them because it's really confusing and it looks Yeah, Skeeter.

Jen 27:11

Joe's big on the distance between two places. We need to be very clear.

Joe 27:16

It's it's just bad, it's just bad like blocking. It is.

Jen 27:19

Yeah, it's I also like that they turn and leave, but they're still right there and throw it to the city. Turn back around. Like Yeah. I do like how they like I like the visual of the the thing looking like a rock though. That's cool. I like that. It's cool.

Joe 27:38

I agree. But it looks like the guy literally walked two steps and was right there.

Jen 27:44

Yeah.

Joe 27:44

And I'm like, if he was right there, how did he not see them sliding sliding back?

Jen 27:49

I don't know.

Joe 27:50

I don't know. It was just give me something.

Tom 27:53

Give me like Sam has to look around the boulder to even see that there's people coming. Something that he's blocked.

Jen 27:58

Yeah. Well, once he gets up, there is like a r another rock there. The frodo's behind. So maybe they're that's supposed to be blocking them. I don't know.

Joe 28:05

Yeah, and I think the guy, I think what it is, because I think at the end of the shot, the guy's like walking back, and you notice he's very far from the column of soldiers. So I think it's just that he walked much further than we think he did, because it looks like he just walks like three steps off the line and they're right there. So I think that's what it is. I think he was he just walked much further off. The two was it, two guys, two soldiers, whatever.

Tom 28:26

Yes.

Joe 28:27

Um, yeah, that was just still confuses the hell out of me. That that whole scene. Uh Green of Worm Wormton's an awesome character, huh?

Jen 28:36

He's so he's really good. Brad Dorf is great in this. Yeah.

unknown 28:39

Yeah.

Jen 28:40

A lot of his lines are really complicated, and but he does evolve really well. Like when he says Ao-in, like you I can't even remember what it is, but your trammel. I don't, I don't, whatever the thing with the word trammel, and I don't really know what that means, but he's talking to her like when Theodrid dies. Oh, yeah.

Joe 28:57

Oh, yeah.

Jen 28:57

That whole speech.

Joe 28:58

Yeah. Yes. He deli his lines are you're right. They're the lines that he are delivering, and those are like well, here's one thing. I I'll just take a step back here. You can very much tell in this in these movies what are direct lines from the books and what are not, because of just the lines. Like you could tell that's a Tolkien line because of like a lot of Green of Wormtongue's lines are that spell, I name you. Yeah.

Jen 29:20

That whole part is like, yeah.

Joe 29:22

And then you get other lines that you're like, now Tolkien didn't write these lines. It's right there, those were those were the writers of the movie. And it's a little, it's a little uh I don't know, it's like in your face sometimes. Um but worm tongue's awesome. I mean, you're right, Jen. Like those lines he has to deliver, and he just, even if like you said, you don't really know them what he's saying, you know exactly what he means by it. Because Brad Dorf's just killing it with his delivery of all of the lines.

Jen 29:48

And it's also like he's awful. Then like for a split second, you feel bad for him when she walks out, but he's gross, and you're like, oh, am I supposed to feel bad for him? And then like he kicks him out. Okay, he's gone, whatever. And then he's totally helping Saruman break into Helm's Deep, but then he sees the army and he starts crying. And I'm like, wait, what am I like? But he's so good that you kind of do feel bad for him for a second, and then you're like, wait, no, like you did this.

Tom 30:14

Wait, you know, that's funny because I don't remember what I thought the first dozen times I saw the movie, but just watching it again. Um, when he was crying, I thought he was crying from the beauty of the army.

Jen 30:25

Oh, really?

Tom 30:26

I thought it was like, I'm full evil now.

Jen 30:29

What did you think, Joe?

Joe 30:31

I didn't know he was crying. I didn't know. A tear.

Jen 30:33

First of all, he goes out, Saurum has a big staff, and he's standing there with like a tiny little candle in his hand. It's really funny if you when you're like looking at the colour.

Joe 30:40

Well, because they have to do the scene where he like walk move past the candle near the uh the gun padder.

Jen 30:46

But then but this thing candles like this big, and he's like, Yeah. But he it's almost like he's like, you can't beat them, like you don't have enough guys, and then he goes out and sees it, and then I I thought it was like he was like, Oh my god, like they're gonna kill every single person in a row. And he was like a tear coming. One tear, like drops down. I always thought that. I don't know.

Joe 31:05

I don't know. I don't know either. That's a good I didn't realize he was.

Tom 31:16

Like you know what it is, like the Eowen stuff where she walks out, like he's literally trying to like make her think I should kill myself or sleep with this guy. Those are my only two options. So when she walks out, it's like good, you know.

Jen 31:30

Yeah, I mean I don't really feel bad for him because he's just obviously he's like a kind of obsessed with her. I don't know. Right. He's a creepy.

Joe 31:38

Well, that's a great scene. Like, what did what did Saruman promise you? Riches, and then he like kind of looks over at Ewen.

Jen 31:45

Yeah.

Joe 31:45

Right. Yeah and then he turns and looks at her and he's like, oh, gross.

Jen 31:49

But then again, in the next movie, which doesn't happen in the book at all, another moment you feel bad for him. So it's like he's very good. Is what I'm saying, he's you shouldn't you shouldn't feel bad for him, but because he's such a good actor, you kind of do.

Tom 32:02

You do and like um yeah, we talk about good lines. Once Theodron is uh disenchanted, you know? Um Theoden? Theodon rather. Once he's um once Theodon is like a awoke, every other line that he has is just like he's been listening to a lot of maiden recently and he's just ready to just I missed a couple of things that I just wanted to comment on.

Jen 32:27

Uh the flag that rips off when Aowan is standing there, beautiful, gorgeous, love that. Yeah, um Candelf can't free Theodon from the spell until Saruman sees his clothes. Like he has to take his cape off. Oh, you're really white now. Like, you know, it's a whole thing.

Joe 32:42

I think he was showing him his junk and uh his impressive. Yeah.

Jen 32:47

Um and when Theodon's face changes, I I love that effect. It's like so perfect. It's like seamless how it like so slowly goes back.

Joe 32:54

I re yeah, I really like Bernard Hill and as Theod uh Theodon. He's really good in this. He's a little he's a little maybe just a tad bit too fatalistic, I think.

Tom 33:04

Yes.

Joe 33:04

And I don't know if that's supposed to be he's still maybe a little bit under the effects of um the spell, or he maybe he's seen he's seen some well, I don't know if he's really seen anything that would make him feel that way, but I I think it's I think this is this is one of those movie things where they're like, well, we have to make Aragorn seem even more kingly.

Tom 33:24

So let's make this guy he's a king, but he's like, We're all gonna die, it's okay. You know, so like Aragorn looks more like inspirational.

Jen 33:33

I love when he says, like, when last I looked, Thaodon, not Aragorn, was king of Rowan. It's like, okay, Aragorn, like relax. I'm still the king here. Yeah. Like, I know what I'm doing. I don't think he meant like, yeah, I don't know.

Joe 33:46

I was gonna say, I mean, Theodon's nothing you can come when you and you know, when when we meet Denethor, who's just like got a death wish.

Jen 33:54

But uh Theodon's. Yeah, just uh Yeah, I don't think he makes any I don't know. I don't think he makes any wrong choices based on the information that he has. Right. If he'd known there was that many orcs before maybe they would have not gone. I don't know, maybe they would have done something. Who knows?

Joe 34:08

But I don't know. What would they have done though?

Jen 34:10

Yeah, right. They can't like face them. So Elm Steve, at least they had the the I don't know.

Joe 34:15

Yeah, exactly. So Aragorn's getting on his case about it, and I'm like, what do you want him to do? Like, where's he supposed to go? He's like, he's like, send out riders, ask for Gondor. You know, there's nothing.

Jen 34:24

Gondor's too busy right now. They're not gonna help you.

Joe 34:26

Yeah. Dwarfs dwarves, elves.

Jen 34:29

By the way, it's Aragorn's fault in the movie that they find out about the hole because he doesn't let Theodon kill Grima. He stops Theodon from killing Grima, and then Grima goes directly to Saurumon and tells him how to get into Helm's Deep. So it's Aragorn's fault that that happens.

Joe 34:44

Yeah. You know, it's not perfect. It's Aragorn's fault then that Helldeer's dead. So Yeah, everything that happens after that expansion is fault.

Jen 34:53

Good choice.

Joe 34:53

Oh Aragorn's.

Jen 34:54

Wait, every by the way, every elf dies except Legolas, right? Because there's none left at the end.

Joe 34:58

I don't know.

Jen 34:59

As far as I see. I don't know. I don't I don't think there are. There's like six guys left.

Joe 35:03

Good riddance.

Jen 35:05

What do you mean, good riddance? Um we'll get there. We'll get there.

Joe 35:10

Another thing that I uh that reminds, you know, we go to Rohan and we get the Rohan theme, which is one of my I forgot about that theme. I was like, oh, this is one of my favorite themes. And it's so like majestic in the beginning, and then like the second part of like the theme just like kind of becomes like very depressing. It's like it's like it just kind of goes slowly goes down a hill. I'm like, can't they can't we just get a whole positive theme for that?

Jen 35:37

Maybe towards a lot of up and downs in Rohan.

Tom 35:40

I mean we'll get we'll get to it in a few weeks, but like man, even even in even in the last battle, he's like death!

Joe 35:47

Like that's oh that's that's amazing. I I'm a I have a little you know pet peeve with that scene too, which but we'll get we'll get to that when we get to that. Um but yes, him going death, death, yeah. Great. I really like like I said, I really like Bernard Hill's theme, and I think he kills it in this in these movies. Uh any scene that he's in, he's delivering those lines with uh good stuff.

Tom 36:09

And I I I really like um I really like Amber and Eowen. I think they're they're both I mean this is the first thing I ever saw. Carl Urban in or Miranda Otto, I think. Yeah, I think they both have a lot of things.

Joe 36:21

I just keep thinking of Billy, Billy Butcher now when I see him waiting for him to spout out something.

Tom 36:27

He's got less he's got it's funny, he sounds more American in this that like I feel like if they they tried to get away from his normal voice. Yeah.

Joe 36:38

Well, yeah, they didn't give him that like Cockney accent. It's yeah.

Tom 36:43

Yeah.

Joe 36:43

He's not he's not saying oi.

Tom 36:46

That's it.

Joe 36:47

It's more of a it's a more of a fantasy British accent. True.

Tom 36:52

Um I spent uh majority of my time watching these films, just uh I apologize for the pure oil, but like I think Miranda Otto is gorgeous in these movies.

Jen 37:02

So I was gonna say she's a two-faced, but both of her faces are good.

Tom 37:07

Yeah, that's true.

Jen 37:08

Like that in each shot, depending on the lighting, I feel like she looks very different. Yeah. Like when the when they're outside walking, when when she's talking to Aragorn and when Gimli falls off the horse, that scene I feel like her face is fully different than like inside shot. I don't know if it's just the way the light is on her face, but it could be, yeah. It could be the sunlight versus different in like whatever scene, yeah.

Joe 37:28

The artificial light.

Jen 37:29

So you like Miranda Otto more than Kate Blanchette?

Tom 37:31

100%. Yeah. These films, I think.

Joe 37:35

Uh and I I mean I like her, I like the costume. I like her costuming. It's very like it's very like simple but regal at the same time. Yeah. Like you could tell it's it's like plain ish, but you but it's like fine fabrics, right, that a wealthy person would wear.

Jen 37:52

I noticed that when you first see her, she's in kind of like a plain dress, her hair's like not done.

Tom 37:59

Yeah.

Jen 37:59

Because everything's like going to shit. And then the next part, when the kids ride in on the horse and they're all like talking, she has her hair like fully done, beautiful dressed. It's almost like now we're gonna get back to like you know, and then she's traveling, so she goes kind of back to plane after that. But when she's in when she's home in the castle, like that's what she normally would look like.

Joe 38:18

Aaron Ross Powell I wonder if she was trying to make her uh ugly herself up. So maybe thinking that Grema wouldn't be interested in her anymore.

Jen 38:25

Maybe. Or she's just like depressed because her brother got banished and her uncle's like a weird old sick man now all of a sudden.

Joe 38:33

And her cousin died.

Jen 38:35

And her cousin died, right. Which in the book I don't feel like he cares very much about. He kind of talks about it once and then we're over it.

Joe 38:41

Yeah.

Jen 38:42

But in the movie, you get that really good scene at the grave. I think in the extended edition, there's a whole funeral for him.

unknown 38:47

Yeah.

Joe 38:52

Yeah. And I mean they they do change this part where this part's kind of weird in the books because once the spell's broken on Thaedan, he's like, Hama, get me Amher, and then Amher's just there. Like he just he's just there like minutes later. Oh, in the book? Yeah, in the book.

Jen 39:08

Well, he didn't banish him in the book.

Joe 39:11

Did he not banish him?

Jen 39:12

I think he was just outriding.

Joe 39:14

Okay.

Jen 39:14

I don't think that whole part happens.

Tom 39:17

Yeah.

Joe 39:17

I think he's just I know you don't see him banish him, but I thought there's mention that he was exiled.

Tom 39:26

I think it's more if if memory starts more like he's banished from the court, Joe. Like he's not banished from the kingdom, he's just not allowed to go into the throne. Like, yes, yes.

Joe 39:35

That's what I mean. That makes sense. Yeah.

Tom 39:36

So like he's just around. Like get in the house, quick, get in the house. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 39:41

He's like, you know, get me get me AMR, and AMR's there. And obviously, and I get this change. Uh, you don't want we don't need to start bringing in other characters, we don't need Urkinbrand. And um, so like let's have Aomer come and save them. That that all makes a lot of sense to me. Um, one other thing note here I have about Thaedon too is that he has the coolest sword in all in probably all the movies. Yeah, with the two horse heads, with the two yeah, the two horse head palm um hilts. Uh that's so cool. I like the combination of the Rohiram as kind of like Vikings, but also like Eastern horse archer type. They got they got like that combo because they're really skilled at archery from the horses. There's a couple of times you see them like doing some crazy cool trick shots and things like that.

Jen 40:27

They also have spears.

Tom 40:29

Yeah, there's like a there's like a Genghis Khan kind of vibe to how they battle. Yes. But like a very like uh like Danish Viking-y kind of to their home life. Yeah.

Joe 40:41

Yeah, and I think they mention in the books most of them are like fair-haired and fair skinned, and that yeah, they're very much like Viking like, but they're horse people. Um yeah, so like I guess like the steppe people or Turkish, right? There's some Turkish, I think, uh groups that were like that too in history. Um, yeah, so Eugen, you mentioned Worm Tongue going back to Saruman. When he goes back to him and he tells Wormtongue's telling them that, you know, they're going to Helm's Deep, he's like, they'll have everybody with them. He's like, they will have women and children with them. And Saruman's like eyebrows. Christopher Lee goes like he's like his like eyebrows raised at the at the word children. Yeah. It was just a little creepy.

Jen 41:23

Can't wait to kill some children.

Joe 41:25

Um well, he's not even gonna be there though. He's not seeing anything, he's just gonna hang out in Orthanc the whole time.

Jen 41:30

Rides in his tower.

Tom 41:31

He has the plant interior, he doesn't need to go anywhere.

Joe 41:33

Yeah, he's being he's administrating uh the uh the renovations at Isengard.

Tom 41:39

Rip more trees from the ground. Yes, yes.

Joe 41:42

Yeah, they cut back. Yeah, once they go back to Isengard, it's they're still ripping trees and from the ground. I'm like, haven't they ripped enough trees?

Jen 41:48

No, never.

Joe 41:49

Still, still doing that.

Tom 41:52

Certainly tree beard thinks so, but we'll get to that.

Joe 41:54

Yeah. Um yeah, we got the and then we mentioned there's more orchai, obviously, being birthed from the ground. Um you did talk about a little bit about the conversation, the smeal golem conversation. I still it just doesn't I don't know. To me, I just I don't I'm not really into that conversation. The way it's done, the way it's filmed, and and then like you said, hey go away and never come back part. Like I wasn't. Yeah.

Jen 42:25

Uh there's a yeah.

Tom 42:28

I didn't mind the conversation style itself, because I think that was a really effective way of showing the audience these are two different personalities at war with each other. Yeah. Right?

Joe 42:38

And like it reminds me of um Willem Dafoe in Spider-Man when he's talking about the mirror. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Jen 42:46

Right. If you if you think about like what actually happens for Frodo and Sam, there's not a lot of what you said before, it's a lot of walking, it's a lot of people.

Joe 42:58

Well, they did have a whole part that they cut out of the movie and pushed it into the next movie. They could have done that.

Jen 43:04

Right, but they needed that for the next movie. Oh, yeah. So they just added a they well it said in their in our research that it's like they had to give them like a big ending.

Joe 43:15

But that but there is a big ending in the book. It's such like a great ending for them.

Jen 43:20

Then what would they have done in return of the king?

Tom 43:22

Yeah, they needed balance for the Return of the King. Otherwise, it the the end for them is very quick. Right? Because Frodo's story goes from like getting rescued by Sam all the way through to the Shire in Return of the King, right? Like and so right, like his climax of the film is like if you if you had Cheelop stuff happen in this movie, it's like he wakes up, he goes over to Mount Doom, and he doesn't throw the rigging. Spoiler alert.

Joe 43:50

But I I agree, I agree. But you could have just had more you could have just had more Pelinor Fields then, just put more battle into it.

Jen 43:57

I don't know. Or you know, but you want to make Frodo. Have more to do. You want to give Frodo more.

Joe 44:02

Do do really?

Jen 44:03

Do we need it though? I don't mind the like they're in Askiliath for like 10 minutes of run. Like they're really not there for very long. No, they're not there very long. I don't mind. I don't mind that. It's a cool and then you can bring Askiliath back in the next movie and you kind of know like what happened there and you're seeing I don't remember if you're I don't mind the I'm I am I wanna get into the end of the movie.

Tom 44:24

We'll get into that when we get to it. But like it's not them being in the Skilieth for a while that bothers me. It's Faramir. It's Faramir, yeah. Well they changed. But what you call it. I think like watching it again now, like in the books, Frodo is just very tired. And like the ring is like wearing him down physically and mentally, and he's like, I see it when I close my eyes. It's a regular fight. And like here, it's much more clearly like he's starting to turn in this movie, you know? Where he's just having episodes of near rapturous, uh, I don't know, evil episodes or something like that.

Joe 44:59

Well, and that happens in the fellowship too. Yeah.

Jen 45:03

Um I just thought of I just thought of something. I just want to go back for one second because of the Faramir thing. If they're just gonna meet Faramir and he's like a nice guy and he helps them, and then they're still that's like not a good and they and they were gonna take the Shilob stuff out and move it, then they then it would have ended very boringly. So what they did was let's have a little bit of is he gonna be nice or bad, and then he decides to be nice at the end.

Tom 45:28

I I I still think I I don't want to I know, but it's okay.

Joe 45:33

Um You don't want to talk about Faromir yet because we're not a Faramir. Is that what it is? Yes, we're almost suggesting.

Tom 45:38

I'm gonna go off at that point. Oh, okay. Uh so they try to hold it in.

Joe 45:42

When they're going to uh you know, but getting back to uh Edoras and then them deciding to go to Helm's Deep, um I noticed that Gimli and Aragorn are riding horses and Eowyn's walking. And I'm like, well, that's not very gentlemanly. Why is she walking and they're riding horses?

Jen 45:58

Uh maybe she wants to walk. Maybe maybe she's just taking a good break.

Tom 46:02

I guess. They have been running for like three days, too. Like they might just be tired. That's true. They have been running a lot.

Jen 46:08

Yeah, I don't know why. That's a good point.

Tom 46:11

Yeah. Um, so we we brush past all of like all of the Aragorn master detective facts.

Joe 46:20

Yeah. Like That's in the book, though. He does almost the exact same thing.

Tom 46:25

It is. It's great. But tracking stuff? Yes.

Joe 46:28

Like in the book two hobbits movie are found. I'm picturing stranger. I know, I know.

Tom 46:32

I'm picturing. I guess in the book, I'm picturing like enough evidence on the ground where you can clearly see that it happens. Whereas he's literally like, there's a smudge of mud. If you do they escaped and they went this way.

Jen 46:48

If you could do it, then it wouldn't be impressive.

Tom 46:52

Yes, I understand.

Jen 46:54

Oh my gosh.

Tom 46:57

But it does make me feel more like it doesn't make me feel it makes me feel like he's really hoping this is what happened, as opposed to like being able to see clearly, up until the point where he goes, they cut the rope. I'm like, okay, there you go. There's actual evidence that you can see this.

Jen 47:13

I don't know.

Joe 47:13

I I I think he's just really good at being a real I was looking for the uh old drop from the old podcast, but I could it I don't have it on the on the thing here. I'm not a fantasy tracker. I'm not a fantasy tracker.

Jen 47:28

You're not, obviously.

Tom 47:32

We talked about it in the uh when we talked about fellowship, but I'm gonna mention it again here because the scene where uh like as this is happening, you're seeing Mary Pi and Pippin's uh attempt at escape, right? It's so much better that these orcs are really there and they're people. Like they're physically like I I'm just trying to get like how much more visceral it is, like that these are clearly characters with with like you know, physicality to them.

Joe 48:02

Yeah, and I think all all of like the up close orcs see like and all the talk talk talking the talking orcs and um that's all yeah, those are all people. I think the only CGI stuff is like the big groups. Oh, yeah, the armies.

Tom 48:16

I'm sorry. I'm I'm definitely throwing more shade at the Hobbit films here, is what I'm trying to do, Joe. But saying their primary orc antagonist is not really there and never really has like a level of of of uh depth to it.

Jen 48:31

Joe, is this line from Tolkien looks like meets back on our menu, boys?

Joe 48:36

No, but they I mean Tolkien does does use the word man flesh a couple of times.

Jen 48:41

Man flesh, yeah.

Joe 48:42

Okay is definitely a Tolkien word. No, yeah, yeah. Meets back on our men.

Tom 48:47

And then they rip it. It's like Garfield eating lasagna. Flesh flying everywhere.

Joe 48:55

Yeah, the poor the poor orc. Was that uh Grishnak or no Grishnak's the one who follows them?

Jen 49:00

Follows them into the woods. Yeah.

Joe 49:01

It's Krishnach and who's the other Ugluck? Is that uh is Ugluck the other one? The orchai.

Jen 49:07

I can't remember which one was which. Yeah, it sounds familiar.

Joe 49:10

I think Grishnak is the Mordor orc and Ugluck is the is the Orkai.

Jen 49:15

Okay.

Tom 49:16

Yes, that makes sense.

Joe 49:17

I like that whole uh we got that whole scene, right? With the two the orcs like arguing and you know, that's all from the book. It's much longer, I think, in the book, but yeah, I don't think we need to hear like the the politics of orcs.

Tom 49:33

Like Tolkien slips in a few times over like in the books about like the orcs aren't just monsters, they're just a an evil race of people, like basically like and the movie has no interest in you, even though like worm tongue you can have some sympathy for. No, these are just monsters.

Jen 49:52

Yeah, well everyone's like, show them no mercy, right, because you will receive none.

Joe 49:56

Molly's right, they won't receive any, so that's true. And the only reason the hobbits are alive, and do I don't know if they make this evident in the movie or at least stress it enough is is because Sar Saruman told them like he's looking for hobbits. If you find the hobbits, no, don't harm them. Don't spoil them.

Tom 50:17

At the end of at the end of fellowship. So they don't like they don't reiterate it here. They're like, okay, I'm looking for hobbits. You find any untouched, and do not I do not take anything that they have on them.

Jen 50:29

Well he says too, they are not for eating. Right.

Tom 50:32

Yes.

Jen 50:32

And then when they're arguing.

Tom 50:33

And then they can say, I have about their feet, you know.

Joe 50:36

Well, I so that's a question I have because I don't know if the Mordor orcs know, well, I guess they do know that a hobbit has the ring, right? Because San when they right, Sauron knows that it's a hobbit that has the ring. Do the Mordor orcs know why the hobbit why the Hobbits are to be kept alive?

Tom 50:56

No, I don't think anybody knows why. I don't I think Sauron knows that a ha a hobbit had the ring. I don't think he knows that it's because he's tricked at the end, right? He thinks he thinks Aragorn has it. Yes. So, um so I think, you know, they has no idea. I don't think any of the border orcs no, I don't think so. Okay. Sauron doesn't seem the kind of people to keep his med informed. He seems like the kind of person that's just like, go do what I tell you to do.

Jen 51:25

Well, who's I still don't know if Sauron's like an actual humanoid person right now? Like, is he is he walking around? Is he in there?

Joe 51:34

I don't I don't know. We never see him at all. Like Ragou Homemade stuff.

Tom 51:40

It's in there.

Jen 51:41

No, I mean like is he the just the eye? Is he like I think of him as like Voldemort almost where he's just like waiting to come back fully? He's like a spirit that exists. I don't know.

Tom 51:52

Think that too. I don't think there's any physical form for him yet. I think that's why he wants the ring. Yeah.

Joe 51:57

The ring will allow him to have physical form, I believe, because right, he's the necromancer Hobbit. So I think that's a good thing.

Jen 52:04

Yeah, but then he gets like that's like Harry Potter one, where he gets like destroyed and he has to like reboot and do something else.

Joe 52:12

Yeah, re-apparate or he goes somewhere else.

Jen 52:16

Yeah, I don't know. It's weird that you never see him. Um and he's not like it's not like Aragorn and him fighting at the end.

Joe 52:24

Yeah, I always felt like I mean, just going back to like when I read the books and saw the cartoons, I just always kind of pictured Sauron as more of a presence and like uh like almost like uh you know a voice, like like in the wheel of time, the dark one is just like a you go to the place and you hear a voice and he talks to you and there's no physical form. That's kind of always how I pictured him because he's not a god, he's like a demigod, I believe, if I remember correctly.

Tom 52:51

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 52:53

Um, so he does he can, I guess, appear in corporeal form.

Tom 52:58

Well, he does have in the in the in the movie, he's definitely at one point a human.

Jen 53:03

I guess it's before he is defeated at all, ever, right?

Tom 53:08

Like that's yeah, that's the that's his play.

Jen 53:10

It's the Sauron from like Yeah, the ends of the second age. Like, you know, the same guy that we're seeing that can he comes in different forms though.

Joe 53:18

Yes.

Jen 53:18

Yeah.

Joe 53:19

Uh before Isildur cuts the ring off his uh finger. Yes. Sorry. Shall we uh do we we want to cut it here before moving on to the second half of this? How does that mean that's the thing?

Jen 53:32

Yeah, I think I think that's a good idea. Yeah.

Joe 53:34

All right.

Jen 53:35

Ford Tom goes crazy about Faromir. You'll have to wait till next week to catch that one.

Tom 53:42

We we teased a couple of rants here. I think when we get really deep into Helm's Deep, Joe's gonna lose it too.

Jen 53:48

Deep into Helm's Deep.

Joe 53:49

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