Tom 0:00

Last time on Shelf to Screen. Why do you think there's no town bombarding these movies? Is it just because it's too long?

Joe 0:07

There didn't need to be. It doesn't really serve much of a purpose in the in the book. I mean he he's he's there to build the lore and mythology.

Jen 0:15

He's up there with like the most powerful creatures in Middle Earth, but it doesn't seem like he really gives a shit about what's going on outside of his little area.

Tom 0:44

This is my uh triptych of the Lord of the Rings. I have hmm, it's a Vista shot shot from fellowship. Um I believe this could be, oh, it's someone on this is Frodo and Arwin on a horse running away from Argus.

Joe 1:03

Oh, and this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we listen to sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big end or small screen. I'm Fatty Bulger.

Jen 1:13

I'm Arwin and Domiel.

Tom 1:15

And I'm Tom Bombadillo.

Joe 1:18

Yes! Riddy do. Uh we're continuing our uh, I was gonna say our journey quest thing. Thing through through the fellowship of the ring.

Jen 1:32

That's right.

Joe 1:34

Uh that was telegraphed. Um, we left off talking about Tom Bombadil. Haven't gotten very far into this movie, so we've got a lot to talk about in this uh in this part of the episode. So um we got out we get out of the um the Shire pretty quickly in this. What are your thoughts on the Mary and Pippin, how how they weave how Peter Jackson and you know team weave Mary and Pippin into this in the movie and like kind of condense that really, really tighten it up instead of it being like a long, long, long plot and real estate moving.

Jen 2:05

Yeah, the selling his house. I like it. I think it's since they're comic relief, it makes sense that they wouldn't have been included in this because of their personalities. Like, why would you want them with you? Sorry, Mary and Pippin. But uh Yeah, they just kind of get swept along. I do like that they leave in that Mary knows like how far the Brandywine Bridge is and knows how to get to Buckleberry Ferry. Because in the book, that's like the area where he's from.

Joe 2:34

Yeah, Buckwind.

Jen 2:35

He knows all that stuff, yeah. So I like that they leave that in.

Joe 2:38

Yeah. Um again, like we're we're watching this. I think this that was another really good job of just like, hey, let's we they introduce him really well, like quickly and like memorably. And even even using the dragon firework from the books, which is that's in the book, yeah. Um, and then using that, you know, the whole fireworks idea to get kind of introduce them and then running into them basically, and then just kind of getting pulled along for the ride. And like I thought good.

Tom 3:08

Yeah, I agree. It's good. I think to Jen's point, like it even like they're both comp relief, they're both slightly ridiculous. Uh, but right, okay, they are that, but Mary is like the more competent one of the two of them, right? Mary at least knows things, and as the movie progresses, Mary is the one who I think is more attuned to the stakes of what they're actually doing than uh than Pippin.

Joe 3:33

Yeah, oh yeah, he has to kind of hob explain some things to Pipp uh later on in this movie. Um, we got right, they go to Brie. So there are probably two things in this movie that bother me the most. Um, one of them is Brie, and the other one's Council Aaron. So we're well, let's talk a little bit about Brie. Um, I feel like this part is rushed. They should have spent a little bit longer in Brie and kind of flowing into the um the kind of suspense, the loneliness, the suspense, the you know, the strider part being a little bit more mysterious and building that up. So you kind of think he's you know not a man to be trusted. Um and even the ring rates, like the ring rates, they just break down the the door to breed. There's just one guy. No, they climb over the they s they sneak over the walls, I think.

Jen 4:24

No, that's Aragorn.

Joe 4:26

No, I think the ring rates sneak over the walls. There might be another wall. There might be another, maybe later on they come through the gate.

Jen 4:34

When they go when when the hobbits go in, they say there's like a black dark creature that climbs over the wall behind them. And I thought that was a ring wraith, but it's Gollum. It's Aragorn.

Tom 4:48

Oh, it's Aragorn. Is it? Sorry.

Jen 4:49

Yeah, he says later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I was following you, I climbed over the wall and Oh, I missed that.

Joe 4:54

Oh, call-out, Chen. I missed that.

Tom 4:56

You're telling us you started off with it's Aragorn, and we're still like, no, it's it's these other things and it's not. Both of us tried to manspread to you, and we're like, no, actually.

Jen 5:06

Um, because I thought I assumed it was one of the ring rates. I did too. And then he says that I was like, oh, it was him. Okay, cool.

Joe 5:14

All right. Well, there we go.

Tom 5:15

Um, yeah, I think um, and maybe this is my memory conflating the extended edition versus the the theatrical cut that we watched for this, but I do recall them spending more time in in in in Brie, right? Really? In the extended edition? Yeah, there's more stuff, right? A little bit more. Is there a song in dance?

Joe 5:34

Yes.

Tom 5:34

There's a song in dance in the in the Prince of Body.

Joe 5:37

Yes, in the extended edition.

Tom 5:39

In the extended edition, it's there.

Joe 5:40

So um Yeah, culminating with my dislike of the Frodo falling and the ring falling onto his finger scene, which I thought was just Well, I wasn't in the book he falls, it's he has it like in his pocket and he falls. He's fingering it though while he's in his pocket and he falls, and yeah, kind of it's not like well, that's more dramatic. Yeah.

Tom 6:01

They do a number of things where like when the ring falls, like it's exerting some power over itself, like when it falls in in in bang.

Jen 6:09

It's moving, yeah.

Tom 6:10

Yeah, or if it just stops. Yeah, drops.

Joe 6:14

I love that. It just thugs and doesn't do a ring. Like, ah, it was so I I feel like they had to like there was a magnet, like to film that, there was like a magnet under there so that when a ring dropped, it would just stay down.

Jen 6:30

So heavy.

Tom 6:30

Yeah. So I think it did the movie establishes that the ring has some will of its own. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Or not of its own, of its evil master, I guess, but still.

Joe 6:40

And it's kind of like this ring has weight to it. Yes. Yeah. Not just physical weight, but yeah, yeah. Uh metaphysical. Um metaphysical, yeah.

Tom 6:49

Yeah, I I do feel like the the you know, we talked a lot in the first part of the episode, uh, in the in the in the first part of uh this series, last episode, of this movie is like a freight trade. It just does it does just keep going and going and going. But the relationship of uh the Hobbits to Strider suffers, right? Yeah. Like they spend so much time with him in the books that even though they know he's Aragorn and eventually know he's Aragorn king of Gondor and King of all men, they still call him Strider.

Jen 7:20

Yeah.

Joe 7:20

Yes. And Sam calls him Strider throughout the movie movie.

Jen 7:22

Yeah, there is that one part he calls him.

Joe 7:24

He always calls him Strider, Sam, throughout this movie. He never calls him really Aragorn, maybe once or twice, but he sticks with the Strider. I think he's the only one.

Tom 7:33

Right. So I think like yeah, there's a little, there's a little bit of rushness to that, but um, but then we're on mount on Weathertop, and I don't care anymore because that's awesome.

Joe 7:45

Yes. Yeah, Weathertop's great. Um, I think that's just about you know, it's just about the right uh the right amount of time spent there. I mean, uh, you know, the scene of we we referred to it before, right? Breakfast, 11 Zs.

Tom 7:58

I eleven C's is is in my permanent lexicon. Yeah.

Joe 8:03

Uh and he's like, Mary's like, I don't think he knows about elevenzies or something. He says something like that.

Tom 8:09

He doesn't know about second breakfast.

Jen 8:11

What about elevenzies?

Joe 8:14

Luncheon, dinner, and then the the apple, the throwing of the apple.

Jen 8:18

Yeah.

Joe 8:19

I like I I noticed this time too, right? He has an apple in his hand already. So when he gets hit with the apple, he's confused at what happened, and then he looks at the apple in his hand. I I I don't know why, but he just looks at the apple in his hand as if it's gonna give him any answers.

Tom 8:35

Do it himself with his apple.

Joe 8:38

Yeah. We get and then we get one of probably the other big changes in this movie is Arwin, right? Arwin's appearance, which poor Glorfindel. Yeah, poor Glorfindel and poor Gildor. Gilder, who's early on, right? Earlier on.

Jen 8:53

Oh, yeah.

Joe 8:54

Yes, no Glorfendel, but I get it. Let's get Arwin. We need some we need a woman in this movie.

Tom 8:59

We haven't seen anybody since uh besides Rosie Cotton.

Joe 9:04

He's not in the book.

Tom 9:05

Silently Dancing. Right?

Joe 9:06

No, no, Rosie's not in the book either.

Tom 9:08

So yeah, Glorfundel is probably my favorite Elvish name. It is a great name. Any any anywhere in any anything, but like uh yeah, you need to put Arwin in. You just need to have a woman have some part in this movie.

Jen 9:25

She's a little bit more important of a character, I think. I'm not sure if Glorfundel comes back in the book later, but there's really no reason.

Joe 9:32

No, he's there at the Council of El Rondon. I don't think he escorts them. He might escort them out of uh Rivendell.

Tom 9:39

And he does, yeah. Yeah. Arwen's just not a character in the books, you know? She's just uh she's just yeah.

Joe 9:46

That's what there she's there at in the room. She comes in at the end and she's there at Rivendell.

Tom 9:51

But like she's not, she doesn't talk to anyone. All of her conversations with Aragorn happen off camera, yeah, off camera, or like through someone's eyes that doesn't hear, just sees them talking, but doesn't know what they're saying. And then she shows up at the end. Like the only female with any part in the books is is uh Galadriel Aowen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So um a third one's not fine. And I remembered uh not loving that Liv Tyler was was in the movie just in general. But before I saw it or anything like that, I'm like, really? She looks like an elf though. She does, and I think she's good. I think she's good. Yeah.

Jen 10:28

Um can we talk about some elves that I'm like, they don't look like elves, but she looks like an elf.

Tom 10:33

There's one elf.

Jen 10:34

Hal deer.

Tom 10:36

We'll we'll get to talk about how deer when we get to part three and four of this six-part series.

Joe 10:44

Yeah. We'll be talking because he's he's definitely not in the book. Um, but yeah, he'll be in the movie. All right. I want to since we're talking because live live Tyler's a perfect example of this, and I've brought it up before, but the and I said this to my wife when we were watching it uh the first part of it last night. It's like, why do they always have to be fucking British? Why can't people some people have British accents and other people don't? And I will I will go back to hey, Lord of the Rings, um, back to Wheel of Time TV show. Not everybody uh had a British accent, and it was cool. So why do we have to do that all the time? Why do we have to make these American people talk with these bad British accents?

Jen 11:23

It's a British story, right? So Wheel of Time is like all different nations, supposedly, under, you know, it's supposed to be based on different nations.

Joe 11:32

They didn't all need to have British accents. Like the Elves, I'm sure in in Tolkien's mind, the Elves don't have and the humans don't have British, they don't all have British accents. The Elves probably have Elvish accents, and the dwarves probably have dwarvish accents.

Jen 11:46

I read them with that British accents.

Tom 11:48

I I I I read, I always read the Shire as American. Always. Yeah. Even though I understand as an adult that that's supposed to be the most Britishy of all of them. Um I always I I I did the same thing when we did the Wheel of Time back in the day. When I first read The Wheel of Time, I'm like, well, Andor's Britain, but the two rivers is America. Where like again, he was like, no, the two rivers is Ireland, you know? And and I read the rest of the characters in the Lord of Rings as having different uh British Empire accents.

Joe 12:22

Like whether it's I picture the elves having a bit of a French accent.

Tom 12:25

Um I don't know. I picture the elves the dwarves are Scottish, of course.

Joe 12:31

Dwarves are Scottish, yeah. And are the Hobbits Irish and then the humans are just straight British?

Tom 12:37

I think maybe I picture that the the the elves counting kind of sounding Welsh a little bit.

Joe 12:43

Oh um and then Celtic. They're the the the alphabet is a bit Celtic, right?

Tom 12:50

Yeah, yeah. Maybe a bit Irish, yeah.

Joe 12:52

And then the Irish elves. I would love to hear like of this talk with the brogue. Um anyway. Yeah, it was something that just kind of annoyed me a little bit through watching these movies because they're very like they're very also like light British accents.

Tom 13:05

Well, I think that's the best that some of them can do.

Jen 13:07

Yeah, Vigo Mortensen's when he says, it has no other master. That's the worst line. That's his worst line delivery. Most of them are good, but worst line.

Joe 13:17

You cannot wield it. That's the worst line. He's the Boromir at the Council of Elrond. You cannot wield it.

Jen 13:26

That's the same scene. Maybe he just didn't have a good accent that day.

Tom 13:30

Sean Aston, I think, is also his accent comes and goes. Yeah.

Jen 13:34

But his is like a little different.

Tom 13:35

Even in the book, it's like a slightly Yeah, well, he's he's he's a much lower class character than he's a landscaper.

Joe 13:45

Um we'll get oh we'll get to Alan Bowling's bus line in the last movie.

Tom 13:50

One other, yes. Um right, important change book to book to screens uh is um uh Mr. Frodo is originally Master Frodo.

Jen 14:00

Oh I didn't realize that.

Tom 14:02

Yeah, he's Master Frodo.

Joe 14:04

He is Master Frodo, yes, and he calls him Mr.

Jen 14:06

Um Mr.

Tom 14:09

Frodo's not subservient enough. Sorry. Yeah.

Jen 14:12

I like that they changed I like that they gave the bit to Aragorn asking Sam if he knew the plant that he was looking for, because Sam's a gardener, because that's not in the book.

Tom 14:23

Right.

Jen 14:23

And I was looking for it. And I was like, oh, that's that makes complete sense because he knows what plants look like.

Joe 14:28

Right. Yeah. But he's not he doesn't know. Does he know he's a gardener? He might know. Gandalf might have told me.

Jen 14:34

I'm sure they talk to each other while they're traveling and stuff.

Joe 14:36

Oh yeah, Sam probably went out of the way. That's true. Um Yeah, I mean, you don't really get a sense of time in this movie, and uh everything moves very fast, so it seems like you know, you're just kind of assuming this is happening over days or weeks.

Jen 14:51

Yeah.

Tom 14:52

Yeah.

Jen 14:53

Well, what when was their birthday? Do they say what date it is in the movie? Because Gandalf says the date when he wakes up in Rivendell. It's October, whatever, on the 10 o'clock in the morning.

Joe 15:05

Isn't his birthday a in the fall? Like September or something. September or something.

Jen 15:09

So maybe so it's like a month they've been traveling or something like that.

Joe 15:12

Yeah.

Tom 15:13

They're probably gonna tell us in chat, but I'm gonna look at it.

Joe 15:16

What when was when was Frodo's what's Frodo's birthday and Bilbo's birthday?

Tom 15:20

Um uh September 22nd.

Joe 15:22

Okay, it's the day after my anniversary. That's why I I remember like popping it up and thinking like, oh, that's the day after my anniversary. I should have gotten married on Bilbo's birthday. And Frodo's birthday. Yeah.

Tom 15:33

Oh, so I see I was not aware of the year, and I will I don't remember. I will give uh uh a caveat that this is unfortunately an AI summary of my search from Google, so it's not 100%. Um hold on, let's see if I can find something a little bit more contextual here.

Joe 15:50

Doesn't give you a late to where the info comes from. Yeah.

Tom 15:53

Um it's a little bit, you know, Armageddon here, eight end of the millennium thing. Bilbo's uh 11st birthday, and for his 33rd birthday, Jesus died, was September 22nd, 3001 by their by their calendar year. So it's kind of like that, you know, as the millennium is ending, the end of times is coming thing, or as the new millennium begins, a new age begins. All right.

Joe 16:16

I like it. Um so yeah, the Arwin changes. I get it. Um, they changed uh yeah, they also that that also happens very quickly as well, too, in the in the movie. It's just like I feel like Frodo's not on Death's Door in the book, or it kind of escalates really quick because he seems okay, right? He rides the horse by himself in the book, right? He does, and then he kind of passes out though at the very end of the whole ordeal.

Tom 16:38

Yeah, it in the book it's it it seems like it's like the presence of the ring race being so close to him is what accelerates the wound more than just the move itself. And like in the book, it's you know the flood, the the river floods and it takes them down, and like you can almost see the heads of hor horses in the front, right? And here it's no, the river's gonna turn into horses, run them over.

Joe 17:03

I think it's riders on horses too in the book. It's like yeah, it's just so cool.

Jen 17:08

Gandalf does that.

Joe 17:10

Yes, that was his.

Jen 17:11

Which he still could have done. We don't really know, except it looks like Liv Tyler is the one who calls it, not Elron from afar.

Joe 17:19

Yeah, let's give it to her. She's there, and it's too then we have to explain it like it was somebody else who did it. No, just make her do it. Um, it's her river, it's her dad's it's her dad's place.

Jen 17:30

So yeah, it is. She's the princess or whatever of Rivenale.

Joe 17:35

All right, and then we the Council of Elron, this is the other place where I was very disappointed because I feel like they really, really chop this up to shit. Um, as I I understand you're not gonna have a ton on like just exposition poured out for the next 15 minutes, but I feel like they could have at least done a better job of laying out some of the backstory and having like each person like tell their part of the story.

Tom 18:01

People just show up and are like, we're here to be assigned to a project. That's what they're there to do. Like, no one's coming to Elrond to like pass knowledge along. They're literally there waiting for a quest to happen in the book.

Joe 18:15

Yeah, yeah, that's also very weird. And they all just like show up, right? Like you see, like Legolas show rides in, and then Gimli rides in, and then Baromir rides in, and you're like, What why are they all here?

Tom 18:26

Why are they here?

Jen 18:26

I assume that he he summoned them, right?

Tom 18:29

Yes.

Jen 18:29

In the movie, I think he summons them, but like in the book, Boromir's like, I had a weird dream, or so I just came here to see.

Joe 18:35

It took Baromir months to get there, too. It's not even like Yeah, in the book. They're all coming from very different places, not even close to each other, and they all just arrive at the same time.

Jen 18:47

Well, what do you want to do? Have one person arrive and then wait?

Joe 18:50

Why couldn't they just be already?

Tom 18:52

Right.

Jen 18:53

You know, maybe they were maybe you were just seeing when they arrived. They weren't necessarily arriving. I actually think that that's different at the same day.

Tom 18:59

Is that you're just seeing their arrivals? It's not you see them riding together.

Joe 19:04

Um that's very confusing.

Tom 19:06

So on this, right, and and I I did I never really picked this up until uh watching it this time, right? You've got the opening where Sauron uh loses the ring and loses uh the battle at the end of the second age, and then you've got the appearances of his all-seeing eye looking at the ring. But he is not the active villain of this of this movie. Like Saruman is the person who they are fighting with the entire film. Yes. Like he's the one who physically attacks Gandalf in the beginning. He's the one who sends them into Moria by attack sending the mountain down on top of them. Well, there's the ring raids.

Joe 19:43

That's the whole first part of the first half of the world.

Tom 19:45

Yeah, but like you don't have the Council of Elrond is for you to learn about like this is what Sauron, like, this is what's happening in the world that Sauron's power is building, and all the things and like that's not what this movie is about. This like it's almost I I've talked about this in other terms. Like, these characters level up uh in an RPG over the course of this these films and in the books too, but even more so in the films, where like in this movie, all of them together can barely take down a cave troll, where by the end of the film, any one of them could probably do it by themselves by the end of the third movie, right? They have to deal with Sauron, he's the mini boss before they deal with the big boss, and that is how these films are structured. And so, like, if they started talking about Sauron, Sauron, Sauron, like then the audience would be like, Well, who gives a shit about the evil wizard? Deal with the actual problem, right? And so I think it's intentional not only to save time, but to wait until the film is ready to focus on the main villain. Yeah. Start talking about the stuff that he does.

Joe 20:45

Well, I mean, I feel like Saruman, I feel like the first half of the movie, it's the ring rates, then it's Saruman in the second half of the movie. Yeah. I mean, we we get some Saruman cutscenes with Gandalf, right? And there's that whole thing he tells, he gives that exposition of, you know, oh, Saruman is bad now. That's not good.

Tom 21:04

Yeah, right.

Joe 21:05

Um but we do stuff, my order. We do get a lot of cut to Saruman scenes in the movie, which doesn't happen in the book. Um, and my favorite one of is, you know, with the with the Orkai. Yes. That weird montage. Uh and the he Peter Jackson, he does this later on at the end of the movie with this like weird slow motion effect that he puts on it that looks very cheesy. Um, he used it here in the in the orchai montage where like they're like one that it looks like a like a red hot chili peppers video for a little while. Yes, yes. He used it here and he uses it again at the end of the movie when um I guess it's when the Orcai come again. It must be the Orkai uh slow motion cam or something. Um yeah, I wasn't a fan of this stuff. I mean, some of it I was, but like this orchai scene with like uh growing out of the ground, and they grab their heads and he's like, Oh.

Tom 22:00

And then Saruman's hand Saruman's hand print uh on their face.

Joe 22:04

Yeah, Saruman says you will taste man flesh and it's just weird.

Jen 22:09

I just don't know how he's growing them out of the ground. I'm not sure. I would like to know the recipe for that. Not how orchai came to be.

Tom 22:21

Right. In the book, it just implies like he's breeding orcs and men, right?

Jen 22:26

Or he's I don't even know if they mentioned it yet. Yeah.

Tom 22:29

Um, they mentioned it in the second in the second it's in it's in uh it's in uh uh the two towers when like you find out that the orchai don't like they they can go run through the day and all the rest of that stuff.

Joe 22:40

I don't even think the word orchai is oh no, Gandalf does mention his he mentions the orc, right? I think a couple of times in the book. But uh, thank you, Skeeter. I like that. Um yeah, I wasn't a big fan of like some of that stuff, the Saruman stuff, like that the Orchai one in particular. I think that was a little bit like I would have been like, can you cut like you know a minute off of this part and put it, you know, give me the brief scene.

Tom 23:09

Um what I what I do like too is every time they cut back the the the the the excavation of the ground around is huger and deeper and like it's just like it's a very visual side about how evil things are getting there. Yeah. And like I as a giddy uh as a giddy fan of all this this, the films and the books, I was watching this for my whole family, and I you know, it's the they there's a they take a very long time to show them cutting down all these trees.

Joe 23:39

No, no, they don't cut them down, Tom. They pull them out of the ground. Right.

Jen 23:43

Yeah.

Tom 23:43

And like I'm just like push them down into the hole, and I'm just rubbing my hands. I'm like, oh wait. Yeah, that's a Chekhov's gun.

Joe 23:51

I love how yeah, I like how it's it's like a very subtle um display of how this this guy's a bad guy. He's ripping trees out of the ground. You only evil people would do something like that in such a horrible way. Like, and we're not cutting them down, we're gonna pull them out of the ground. We're rip rip them from the earth, like pulling fingernails. Um yeah. Old Tom Bombadell probably didn't like that.

Tom 24:18

So going back to the council, another thing I think it's an off uh repeated bit of of of lore, but uh Boromir got the pages for his his speech day of, and so they're on his leg, and that's why you're not simply walking to Mordor, he's giving it all around here, he's literally reading it and then playing up to the camera. Oh my god. Yeah, yeah.

Joe 24:41

So uh I just kept thinking of the meme when when that scene came up. I was like, and then so burst the meme.

Tom 24:47

I know. But um he there was a there's a period of time where like Sean Bean just dies and everything, and it became kind of like a joke or whatever. He's so unbelievably good in this movie.

Joe 25:00

He is very good in this movie.

Tom 25:02

When you talk about when when people talk about these films and talk about how much they like them, they don't necessarily talk about like, and the acting performance of this character blew me away. Like it's almost like the experience of these films is uh is greater than the sum of its parts. So to pick out things like that is almost like kind of uh belittling the whole experience. But it's such a well-crafted performance of somebody who is is fundamentally good and well-intentioned and is just um you can tell like the pressure of what he's had to deal with is is leading to his you know his corruption and and eventual downfall. Um but like the nuance of his performance is really, really good. Yeah, I just wanted to call that out.

Joe 25:45

It's probably my second favorite performance in the series, an entire series. We'll see. It's definitely my second favorite performance. It might be my favorite performance in this movie. It's pretty close with Ian McKellen.

Tom 25:59

Yeah, I mean Gandalf is really good too. But like I feel like I I like I I think he he uh I because I think Ian McKellen is terrific, and I don't want to, but like to a certain extent, like there's a lot of scenes where where Ian McKellen lets the costume do the work, for lack of a better term.

Joe 26:12

And to be honest, he's not even in he's that's not even him, I think a lot of times. I feel like all the only time Ian McKellen's act, if you see Gandalf, unless you see his face and him talking, it's not Ian McKellen.

Tom 26:24

And like Boromir doesn't have those props for the most part. Yeah, he's gotta like really bring it with what he what he can do.

Joe 26:30

He comes in halfway through the movie. I mean, well, I mean, this is one of those scenarios again where they I I bring it up almost every time because it's a very clear pattern where right book one of the fellowship, the first half, is everything up until right before they get to Rivendell, right? When he when the with the cross the forwards and Bilbo you know passes out from his wound.

Jen 26:53

That's halfway through from his wound.

Joe 26:55

Yeah, that's halfway through what did I say?

Jen 26:58

You said Bilbo.

Joe 26:58

Oh, Frodo, sorry. That's the halfway point in the movie. That's about only an hour into the movie. Right. So there it's about a third of the way into the movie. So again, they're rushing through um the first parts, which is what we've seen many adaptations do. Right. And I I think it suffers a little bit, you know. You know, the like I said, the the Bree stuff.

Jen 27:18

I wish we'd got a little maybe a little bit more time in in the Shire, but uh But they're they have fight scenes that are longer and a fight scene that doesn't exist in the book.

Tom 27:28

Well, yeah, it's just off screen. Like they they bring in the beginning of the two towers is the end. Right.

Joe 27:36

Which I called. I remember calling that when seeing this.

Jen 27:39

You can't end it with the way it ends in the book.

Tom 27:41

It's very like No, you need to have an everything and like you're not yeah. We'll get we'll get to that more when we get to it, but like uh I have a lot of thoughts, positive thoughts about about the end of this film.

Joe 27:52

Uh oh yeah, yeah. I mean, we were just talking about Sean Beat's performance, and he's got a big big piece at the end there. Um the dialogue with him and Frodo at the end there is right from the book.

Jen 28:05

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 28:06

And he delivers it so well. Um I think Tolkien would have would have appreciated and and been been happy about that performance.

Tom 28:14

Yes, and I think like if if anybody saw the the animated version of of of the The Lord of the Rings, right? The like yeah, uh Belmore is like a Viking, you know? Oh yeah. And like because he's strong and because he falls, like people I think think of him as like a like a barbarian, a brutish oath. But he's as close to royalty as a normal man could be. Like he should feel his father rules the country. Right, as far as the Gondor. He's a steward of Gondor, and he's he's from a long line of that, and like um, he doesn't have the blood of Numenor in his veins, but like he's he should be as fine of a man as a man could be, and he should be an aristocrat as well as a warrior. And and Trombean brings all that.

Joe 28:58

Yeah. Um, and I'd say I will say this too. The move, right? The second once they leave the Council of Elrond in a movie, I feel like that's where this movie really kind of takes off and becomes really good.

Tom 29:09

When they go over the rise, and Aragorn looks at the camera.

Jen 29:14

They reintroduce you to everybody, right?

Joe 29:15

Yeah, yeah.

Jen 29:16

Everybody gets the glamour shot.

Joe 29:17

We didn't even talk about the music because which is uh just amazing in this movie.

Tom 29:21

It's all singing it to myself uh all week.

Joe 29:24

All of the themes, they're so distinct and very like just like you hear that and you immediately know, like, oh, this is we're gonna see some orcs now, or oh, we're thinking about the hobbits in the Shire for this one. And um, this is the good uh accomplishing something good theme. Yeah, we get right, so they leave uh they leave Ribendell, they're gonna try to go over to Cross the Mountains, and we get the cool scene, cool Saruman scene of him like causing the storm and avalanche, which is kind of fun. Um, and then they decide to go to Moria and they chop the Moria a bit, but I feel like but that's because they add more, they make it cooler, to be honest with you.

Jen 30:07

Yes, yeah, it's just a little shorter and they kind of condense it. The same thing. I was just gonna say though, I love when uh Legolas is walking on top of the snow.

Tom 30:15

Yes, yes. They they like Legolas and Gimli aren't really fully fleshed out until second film. Yeah, but they give them both just like moments of being cool or interesting, like in this thing. I mean, yeah, they call it a mine, is is is I I use that whenever anyone underestimates anything in my presence. Uh yeah, he's not a mine, Tom.

Joe 30:41

It's a tomb. It's a tomb. Um yeah, they do they do cut it, Jen, but I think they just kind of cut the traveling, right?

Jen 30:48

There's yeah, well, the good parts are are in there, you I think.

Joe 30:51

Yeah.

Jen 30:52

Most of them.

Joe 30:53

And they condense anything else down into like, you know, I like how they went bigger with the with Pippin knocking the helmet in, and then the whole thing falls in and it just kind of drags. And I I like that a lot.

Jen 31:05

In the book, he throws something. Like on the room. This is an accident, kind of. I mean, it is an accident, but he touched, he did touch the thing.

Tom 31:16

This is him like making a mistake. In the book, it's him being an idiot.

Jen 31:20

Yeah.

Tom 31:21

Yeah.

Jen 31:22

Um throw yourself in next time and rid of some stupidity.

Tom 31:26

Fool of a took. You fool of a took. It's great. Oh, he's this is where Ian McKellen.

Jen 31:32

Like, that's in the book, he does he says that to him. Yeah, and then he makes him stay up, and then like a couple hours later, he's like, I'll take the watch. Um, you know, it's okay. He's like, it's almost like apologetic to him, but in the movie, he's just like, No, you're a moron.

Joe 31:45

Well, yeah, well, and there's no time to apologize because right after that they get they get um they get attacked. Um and so this is all great, the cave troll, the fight scene, it's very good. I will say this. Um yeah, watching this, and especially when we get a little bit later into Moria, you you can kind of you see the CGI a bit, or you can kind of notice it a bit. Yeah, it's it's early 2000s and it's heavy CGI.

Jen 32:10

And I and I really love that the the fight with the cave troll is like it's dark, but it's but it's not dark for us. Like we can see it.

Tom 32:20

Oh, yes.

Jen 32:20

Like it's like dim, it's dim, but like I feel like if they did that now, it would be like a million camera cut. Like they keep the camera on in that shot with Gimli where the cave troll is just hitting different things and he's ducking under the hammer. Like, they don't do that now. I feel like everything's a quick cut, so they can hide, you know, stunt performers or CGI. It's so it's so good. I was like, oh, it's dark, but like it's clear. You could see it.

Joe 32:45

This is amazing. Peter Jackson. That's Peter Jackson. You know, that's what he does. And I feel like it's almost got a little bit of a uh Sam Raimi effect to it. And the fight scenes where the camera kind of, it's almost like the camera's kind of swinging through different areas and it sticks with something.

Jen 33:01

Yeah. I don't know.

Joe 33:02

I yeah, I like it a lot.

Tom 33:04

I do too. I I like this is the first example of like the characters are leveling up. Uh Sam becomes a level two pot panfighter in this scene.

Jen 33:15

Panfighter?

Tom 33:16

Uh Mary is just like the whole end where they're they're trying to kill. I forgot about this. Mary is the guy on on on the and stabs him in the back of the neck the last time that throws his head back. So like, let's kill him with the choking.

Joe 33:30

Oh no, no, is it Mary or is it Pippin?

Jen 33:32

They're both on his back, I think. They both jump on.

Tom 33:34

I think Pippin gets thrown. Yeah, one of them. Yeah, they're both on his back. Yeah, I think Mary stays on, Pippin gets thrown.

Joe 33:41

Okay.

Tom 33:42

Um, yeah, they they attack him in a you killed you killed my cousin sort of way.

Joe 33:46

Yeah. Um we get the Frodo fake out death. Um that happens in the book, right? They think he's dead and realize his, you know, he's got the mythical shirt on. But I feel like they cut to Elijah Woods' reaction. Maybe one too many times. Maybe one too many times.

Jen 34:01

He was like, Oh, I'm fine, I'm fine.

Joe 34:03

No, no, no. No, before that, like they're not.

Jen 34:06

No, I know, I'm fine, but I've just reacted like I was dead. Yeah.

Joe 34:09

He's making that face. Yeah. And they he cuts back to it like three times of him making the same face. It's one too much. Yeah. A little too much. It's Peter Jackson's fault. But yeah.

Tom 34:20

Um we we skipped past one of my favorite little bits in back in Rivendell when Bilbo goes to try and get the see the ring and turns the he has a golem face for a group second.

Joe 34:31

Uh yes. Yeah, I will say this. Ian Holm is also great in this.

Tom 34:35

Yes, he is. He's really good.

Joe 34:37

I loved his performances, Bilbo, in this. Um, we've we didn't even discuss it, but yes. Kudos to Ian Holm in this.

Jen 34:44

There's when they do that in the book, and even with Boromir, I feel like there's a line where they say, like, they put their hand over their eyes, almost like you're bringing yourself out of it. And they both do it. They both like do that motion in the movie. It's good.

Joe 34:58

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jen 35:01

Yeah, like coming out of the ring.

Joe 35:03

It's uh it's like they're covering their face in shame.

Jen 35:06

Yeah, but it's like they're just kind of like wipe almost like they're wiping it away. It's just a description of what of something in the book that like translated into the movie, I thought.

Joe 35:13

Yeah. Um, yeah, we forgot, we forgot to talk about Ain Holm. I'm sorry, Ainholm. May you rest in peace. But um, yeah, he's amazing in this. I loved his performance.

Tom 35:21

Yeah, and I think he's terrific. I I I think it's such a it was a really interesting choice for me. Like, you know, he's 11. The ring has granted him an extended lifespan, and he's sharp and he's still energetic and he's still vibrant, and he's been away for the ring for like two or three months, and he's now looks 11 years old.

Joe 35:42

Yeah, my my wife said that. She's like, Oh, he looks so much older now. It hasn't been very long. I said, What I said it's because he's been away from the ring.

Tom 35:49

Yeah.

Jen 35:49

But they don't I don't think in the book they say that he looks older.

Tom 35:52

He feels old. He says he feels older.

Jen 35:54

He feels old, yeah.

Joe 35:55

He's also 17 years older in the books because 17 years passes from when Bilbo leaves to when Frodo gets to Rivendell. Right. So he's yeah, he's 127 or 28 at that point.

Tom 36:07

128, yeah.

Joe 36:08

Which is very old for a Hobbit. I feel like they mentioned the old took on live to like 100 and whatever.

Tom 36:13

111's a crazy age for a hobbit. Yeah, that's why they have a big deal about his party.

Joe 36:18

Yeah, I feel like 111's like 75.

Tom 36:21

No, I think it's it's it's a separate. I think it's like 100. Like it's like it's like a real big deal.

Jen 36:29

Yeah.

Joe 36:30

Yeah. He's still in good shape, Bill, though.

Jen 36:32

He is. Yes, he is.

Joe 36:33

Yeah. All right, we get Demoriusine, um, yeah, the whole cave troll, and then of course we get the you know, the the flight, the Balrog, which was awesome. I like how they all wait there a good, like they all wait like about two minutes to for the Balrog to appear before like deciding then to leave.

Jen 36:50

Well, they're waiting for Gandalf to tell them what to do, I feel like.

Joe 36:53

I know. And Gandalf's just standing there.

Jen 36:55

He's like, what are we asked?

Joe 36:58

Run. You should probably run. You don't think you want to stay there?

Jen 37:01

It's so good. When the yeah, when they're just like, he's just like, this is this foe is beyond any of you. Yeah. It's like, oh my god. They just did that, and he's like, no, don't swords are no more used here.

Joe 37:15

Well, we didn't get uh we didn't talk about the when they first go into Morio, right? We get the Saurumon cutscene. I feel like Sauron's like watching and commentating on the movie. He's like, Yes, Gandalf, you know what the dwarves are Shadow and Flame.

Jen 37:32

I was like trying to figure out why. He was like, let the ring bearer decide. I'm like, give the ring bearer all the information. Right. Let him know that there's a monster down there, and then maybe see if he still wants to go. I don't know.

Tom 37:49

I I think like, I mean, honestly, Gandalf is saying, I'm not making an educated choice. I just uh don't want to die. But Frodo and whatever, they will not survive. There's no way they can survive the battle. They will die. They'll either freeze to death or they'll get blown off or whatever. Yeah. Um, they've gotta go that way. It just means that here's the thing. I think Gandalf knows he will die if they go onto the mountain, and that's why he doesn't want to go. And that's why he doesn't came through the mountain.

Joe 38:19

That's why we he mentions that he came through Moria on his way back to Rivendell.

Jen 38:24

But did the when did the Balrog come? Because now I'm I was thinking like in the book, they say Balin and a couple of the other guys from the Hobbit went back there like 30 years ago.

Tom 38:36

Right.

Jen 38:37

You know, and so they've been there for a while. So did they awaken the Balrog again at that point?

Joe 38:42

Yeah, I think they reawoke the Balrog.

Jen 38:44

Because it said they said, like, oh, their first couple of letters back to the Lonely Mountain were like encouraging, like they was good in there, and then all of a sudden, like they didn't hear from anybody anymore.

Joe 38:53

What I'm glad you brought that up in Balin, because I think one thing that was done better in the book is the reading of the diary, of Balin's diary. Like because it's just it's just he can't make out all the words, so he's just like, Yeah, then then it says doom. Uh yeah, you know, I can't read this, can't read that. And then like he'll just it's just like a couple of words here and there, and it makes it so much I feel like it's so much more ominous that way.

Jen 39:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe 39:18

Than him just reading the all the words and then Oh, you like it in the book better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Jen 39:22

Uh oh.

Joe 39:23

I like it in the book better.

Jen 39:24

It's like he's reading like too much of it. I almost and he's like not, you're not getting yeah, I don't know.

Joe 39:30

Yeah, they didn't have to put the whole part in, but I feel like I liked how it was broken up in the book, like where he can only read every few words and they were always bad, horrible, like or foreboding things.

Jen 39:41

Yeah.

Joe 39:42

Um, and it was fun trying to put to put it together.

Jen 39:44

Yeah.

Joe 39:45

Yes, we get the uh you shall not pass, which is I think you cannot pass in the books. They changed the one word, I believe.

Jen 39:53

He doesn't cannot, and the second part shall he says shall not, yeah.

Joe 39:59

Uh but it's still awesome.

Jen 40:00

Yeah.

Joe 40:01

I think that's uh awesome. Yeah. And that's all like his whole like I am, you know, secret council flame of our name.

Jen 40:08

I have it here because it was a if you'd I wasn't gonna read it. This is one of my uh one of my choices that I did not choose, but I can read it to you if you want. Go for it. You cannot pass is the first part. Then he says, I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udoon, go back to the shadow. You shall not pass. So they're both flames. They're like two different flames, which I have flame of Anor and Flame of Udoon. So I don't know, like yeah.

Joe 40:40

One's a good flame, one's a bad flame.

Jen 40:42

Yeah, I guess so.

Joe 40:44

Uh Anor, I wonder if Anor's the My R who sent the stari down to Middle Earth. I can't.

Jen 40:51

Oh, no, don't give me an AI. It's just everything just says this is what Gandalf says when he's fighting the Balrog. Like, tell me what it actually is.

Joe 40:59

Tell me from the book lore. Um Yeah, I mean, obviously it's an amazing part and a very emotional part. I think this is a great, you know, one of the best scenes in the entire trilogy. Um, and and the act the reaction of like the hobbits and everybody to his death and um the whole way. This is where the slow motion was okay. It was good, it wasn't it wasn't chili pepper slow motion.

Tom 41:23

Just crying, crying, crying.

Joe 41:25

Yeah.

Tom 41:26

And like you as an audience member now know, having doubt if you haven't read the books, like, oh well they're they're they're they're fucked. Okay. They're fucked.

Joe 41:34

Yeah, like Aragorn steps right up and he says, All right, I'm leading this party. He's like, I'm not sure what Gandalf wanted to do next, but you know, I'll figure it out. Yeah. Although actually I feel like in the in the movie, like he knows exactly what's going on and what to do. I feel like in the book he's a little bit more uh he's a little lost at the at first.

Jen 41:53

In the in the movie, there's they're going to Mordor to destroy the ring. In the book, there's like, well, we s at a certain point we could choose it what we're gonna do. Are we gonna go to Minus Tirith? Are we gonna go to Mordor? And Baromir plans on going to right? He plans on going to Minus Tirith regardless. So that's I think more of like Aragorn's dilemma, because he doesn't know what Gandalf would have done.

Tom 42:19

But in the movie, it's like, well, we're going to Mordor.

Jen 42:21

That's what we're doing.

Tom 42:22

Yeah, his obligation outside of this quest is to go to Minus Tirith. Like, and and especially with the fact that they're besieged and he's the like and he's already reforged Anderil.

Jen 42:33

Oh yeah, we didn't talk about that either. Yeah.

Joe 42:35

Yeah, that's a that's a little and and I I when I first saw this, I was like, that's a dumb change, but obviously they it's in there for a reason because later on they we gotta bring Arwin. Yeah, bring Arwin. Yeah. Right. In the in the book, he's carrying the broken sword with him the whole time, and when he gets to Rivendell, they reforge it for him, and he's got the sword. And this he's the sword's in Rivendell, it stays in Rivendell. I don't know why it's in Rivendell, it's it's not their sword, it's his sword. Yeah, but then Arwind comes, right, later in the second in the two towers, right? She brings it. No, doesn't isn't it the before Helmstein?

Jen 43:12

No. Doesn't Elrond bring it to him in return to the king before he goes to the to the ghosts under the Oh is it Elrond? He shows up in the camp and he takes his thing off and he pulls it out and yeah. Is that like that's like his to command the ghost because he's the king of Gondor?

Joe 43:28

That's right. And it's more it's it's like uh it's like a you're worthy of my daughter thing and worthy to be king thing at the same time.

Jen 43:35

Yeah, like he needs that to get the ghosts to go with him to follow him.

Tom 43:39

This movie tells you he's worthy of being king.

Joe 43:41

Yeah.

Tom 43:41

Right at the end. Yeah.

Joe 43:42

Uh turn of the king. Um we and then we get Lothlore and Tom and our favorite elf in the whole wide world, Haldeer. Oh well. He's just got a fake I saw him again. As soon as I saw him, I was like, I almost want to punch this guy in the face. Like, why?

Jen 43:56

He doesn't look like an elf. He's every other elf is like very delicate. You haven't Even Rolando Bloom is like, all right, maybe. But every other elf is like extremely like delicate looking.

Tom 44:06

So I would say th so this is a controversial opinion, but I will say it. We're there's a safe space. I don't like Kate Blanchett in this role.

Joe 44:14

Oh, okay. I was I I'm I'm not drilled about it.

Tom 44:17

She has particularly delicate features either. She is fine. I just don't think good.

Jen 44:22

I just don't I I I don't want to make it a looks thing, but she's not believable as the most beautiful woman on earth.

Tom 44:29

Like yes. Yeah.

Jen 44:30

But I don't but also as part of it, like magic.

Tom 44:33

No one is.

Jen 44:34

I know. But but Liv Tyler to me is more that look than her.

Joe 44:41

They should have just got Alicia Silverstone to be a good one. She's an amazing actor.

Jen 44:44

I think she's good. What did you say?

Joe 44:46

They should have got Alicia Silverstone to play Galazriel and then could have reunited uh her and Liv Tyler.

Jen 44:51

That's what they should have done.

Tom 44:52

I I I think she's definitely cast for her acting chops more than anything else.

Joe 44:57

I think she's also she's also Australian from New Zealand or New Zealand, yeah. Or New Zealand.

Tom 45:01

I just don't but yeah, I I I I think she's Australian. So I'll say this. Like I think she's a very good actress. I don't think she's even particularly good at this role. Really? Like I don't think she's bad. There's an aggression to her mystery that I don't think is right for the role. I don't think and and obviously the the the Rings of Power series seems to lean into the, you know, leans into the Galadriel as warrior thing. But like my reading of these books is Galadriel should be the elfiest elf that's ever elved and should be like so above it. Almost like almost beyond understanding from a mortal, right? And like that's not what I get. I get like the the the scene where she like where where Frodo wakes up and she she's at the the the the scrying pool and like she's a little creepy in this. It's yeah, it's it's it's it's like scary. It shouldn't be that way. I can I don't think that's not on her alone. Obviously, that's the intent of the director, that's the intent of of the of the of thing, but it just it doesn't sit with me. That like it doesn't disrupt the overall flow of the movie. Um, but I don't think that this is the best part of the film.

Joe 46:10

No, I was uh I was never a fa I mean they also like you said, Jen, they spend a lot of time, much longer time in Little Authority in the books.

Jen 46:17

I mean, not like a lot happens, but well, even in the extended edition, they're like, let me give each of you a separate gift.

Joe 46:23

That was one of the scenes where I was like, oh, that must have been in the extended edition. They only show what Frodo's gift is in this version.

Jen 46:29

Um But the stuff that people get comes into play later. So it's right, like Sam gets the cloak that tur makes him turn into like a rock, like the visible whatever the whatever that cloak is. I forget, I can't think of the name of it right now.

Joe 46:44

Well, they all get cloaks like the water cloaks.

Jen 46:48

Yeah, and then like the robe. They all get those cloaks.

Joe 46:50

Yeah, Sam gets his robes. Gimli gets his uh lock of her hair, and Legolas gets a bow, and Aragorn gets uh what does he get?

Tom 47:01

Well, I don't even know if the silver horn or is that the uh stuff?

Joe 47:08

I feel like it's like a stone or something. I don't even remember. Oh no, they give him uh they create a sheath for his sword, for the sword that he has for his newly forged sword. Well, not we recently newly forged sword. Uh they give him a sheath. No, no, in the book he gets the sheath. Yeah. I don't remember if he gets anything in the Yeah, I don't know. And then we we get right, we roll up into the ending, right? They they leave on their boats.

Tom 47:35

Or every time we pass the scene the movie, they pass the giant guardians with their hands out like this. Oh yeah, right. I laugh. I don't know if you remember this, but when we all went to see the movie for the first time, and there was like 20 plus of us in like the last we had the last two rows of the theater. Um, Brendan, friend of the show, Brendan T. Johnson, fell asleep and was loudly snoring. Like he fell asleep during the Lothlorian section, probably right or it was only for a short very short period of time, which is a midnight showing. So at this point, it's about 2.30 in the morning, very late. Um, but he fell asleep and he was loudly snoring when they're passing by the Guardians. And he woke up quickly after. So he didn't miss any plot. He did not, he would not admit that he fell asleep. He's like, I remember every single thing that happened. I missed nothing in this movie, I don't know what you're talking about. And then, like a week later, when he went to see it again, he's like, Where the fuck did the statues come from?

Jen 48:32

And so everything's I love that shot, though. It's so good, it really looks like it's like a drone flying by, and like they're not there, they're not they're not really there. Like they're not real, they look real, they look awesome.

Tom 48:44

How small, like they're going by the foot, they're like the height of the toe, you know?

Jen 48:49

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 48:50

Definitely got some good scale on those.

Jen 48:52

Yeah, I love that.

Joe 48:54

Yeah, we get uh right. The ending doesn't end where the book ends, right? We which makes sense, and I feel like I remember this is one of those things before the movie came out. I was like, I I remember saying I like I bet they're gonna end it when Baromir gets killed, because right, it's so weird that the book ends. And I'd be very curious since he wrote this whole thing, he wrote this all together. Like it wasn't like he wrote the book, then two years later he wrote the next book. He just wrote the whole story. I wonder why he chose to end it, you know, when Frodo leaves before the orcs even come, right? The book ends before the orcs even show up. Frodo leaves, Barmir tries to take the ring, Frodo says, I'm gonna leave, Sam goes with him, and that's the end. Yeah, and then the next book starts with the orcs coming and the whole fight in Barmir dying, which is very strange.

Jen 49:39

I half remembered that that happened, and then I was like, let me just open up to two towers and just look really quick, see if I'm right. And it just starts with like Aragorn ran up the hill. And I'm like, is this just like the next chapter? It's like a medium, right?

Tom 49:52

Because Frodo puts the ring on and he's invisible for like an hour or close to it while he's doing all this, and no one can find him, no one knows where he is. And Sam's the only one who's like the only reason he would do this if he was gonna try and leave without us. Yeah, the boats. He's like the boats, yeah. Yeah. So he goes and he finds Frodo. Frodo's invisible too, I think, right? He sees like the boat moving out by itself. And he does the same thing where he's like, I can't swim, either let me die or come get me.

Jen 50:18

And he pulls him out of the water invisible, too. Yeah.

Joe 50:21

Yes. And then um Of course we get this unnecessary dramatic, like, is damn dead? Like, I'll know.

Jen 50:27

I mean he is dead because he's he looks dead.

Joe 50:30

Yeah, that's like it comes back to life. I was like, You didn't have why we didn't have to do this. This was like this was stupid. But does anyone really think he's gonna die in that scene?

Tom 50:39

Like, just you know killed another guy. They've killed two main characters already.

Joe 50:46

His best friend is just gonna drown trying to get out to the boat to him.

Tom 50:50

An hour and a half ago.

Joe 50:51

Gandalf had a cool death. He had a cool, but he had a very cool, powerful, meaningful. This would be like the dumbest thing. The least heroic death ever in a fantasy story.

Tom 51:03

Um, I think that for the book, you don't need an action ending, you need a narrative ending. The narrative ending is the sundering completely of the fellowship. Frodo is it's over, right? And then book three, you know, uh, the two towers, you know, uh, is what are the repercussions of that sundering, right? So it that's it's it's a different thematic ending. You can't end a movie on like on like, well, what the heck happened to everybody else? Why are we just forget about all the other characters? So you have to have and you and you need more of an action climax, right?

Joe 51:36

Before I get it, like I I would I was asking more of like it's more strange the way it ends in the books.

Tom 51:41

No, I know, but I'm saying for the book, for the book, the book is the fellowship of the ring, and it ends when the fellowship is over. That's it. Like the fellowship is over, Frodo leaves. Yeah, that's the end of the book. Like, and then you don't even see all this fighting stuff that has that that happens in between, in between the books. Aragorn runs up the hill and he finds Boromir. And he's already you know, Mary and Pippet are gone.

Joe 52:04

Not in the beginning of the book.

Tom 52:05

Yeah, the the book the fighting happens and Aragorn comes afterwards. Like the fighting's already happened. Boromir's dead, or not he's dying, and they and Mary and Pippin are gone.

Joe 52:14

There's no fighting in the book? In the two towers.

Jen 52:17

It only takes place in your in your imagination.

Joe 52:20

Oh, yeah. He hears the horn, he runs up the hill.

Tom 52:23

It's it's it's uh it's already it's already happened.

Joe 52:26

Oh wow. Yeah. That's even stranger then, because it literally starts then with like something happened and this guy's dead.

Tom 52:33

Right. It's a it's like a mystery. He's like, they're gone, Frodo's gone, he's dead, what do we do? There's three guys looking at each other, and they make the decision.

Jen 52:43

I don't know if I ever noticed or I don't remember that he puts on in the movie uh like Boromir's bracers and starts wearing them.

Joe 52:52

Does he?

Jen 52:53

Yeah, he's like strapping it to his hand. It looks like the the Gondor, it looks like it has the tree of Gondor on it.

Tom 53:00

Oh. I didn't notice that.

Jen 53:03

Yeah, that's disrespectful.

Tom 53:05

Well, I hate it.

Jen 53:06

Let's just put him in a boat.

Joe 53:07

Yeah, go ahead.

Jen 53:09

I hate that they just put his dead body over that waterfall because it's just gonna hit the river and then just like float up somewhere. Doesn't as Faramir and and them find him? I like that's horrifying.

Joe 53:21

The intention was like, we'll send his body back to Gondor.

Jen 53:25

But he's gonna fall out of the boat. He's going over the waterfall. They should have burned him. Aren't they supposed to like burn him?

Joe 53:31

No, I think they wanted to send his body back to his family.

Jen 53:34

That's not a good way to do that.

Joe 53:36

I know. I'm not sure.

Jen 53:37

Send him over a water, like immediately his dead body's just like floating in a river. He doesn't care, he's dead.

Joe 53:44

Maybe they strapped him up.

Jen 53:45

But it's disrespectful.

Joe 53:46

Include him in there, yeah. I don't know. Pretty good. They used that rope that uh Galagel gave them entirely.

Jen 53:54

He sent him over a waterfall. He's gone. All right. Well, he's not gone. He's floating in a river.

Joe 54:00

I don't want to have to deal with the decompost decomposing body. Bury it smell. Um I don't know. Yeah, it was weird.

Tom 54:09

They they sent him back to Tom Bobadill, to Father Nature.

Joe 54:12

Yeah. No.

Tom 54:13

Actually, it's Goldberry, really.

Joe 54:15

You know, probably where he wanna be. Okay. That's a that's a relationship I'd love to dig a little deeper into. Um, all right. Was this movie successful? I think it was, right? I think this movie made some money, right? Uh, I think this movie grossed, let's see, how much did this one gross? Um, I had it here and I lost it, of course.

Jen 54:32

800.

Joe 54:34

Well, that's the whole uh yeah.

Jen 54:35

Oh, that's the whole series.

Joe 54:37

No, no, actually, no, you're right. This this movie in its of itself grossed almost 900 million dollars.

Tom 54:42

Amazing.

Joe 54:43

Not pretty bad for 2001. No, and 325,000 US Canada. About a 93 million dollar budget. You know, they're just kind of, I guess, cutting the three movies. Yeah, and two-thirds. Um, I've I've read somewhere too. I have this somewhere here. Um, where is it? Like this was the number two grossing movie of 2001?

Jen 55:06

What was number one?

Joe 55:07

I don't know. I didn't look it up when I saw that.

Jen 55:10

I'm gonna look it up.

Joe 55:11

Well, let's guess before we anybody anybody looks it up. 2001.

Tom 55:16

I'm talking about what other movies came out. Uh I don't know.

Joe 55:20

Was there like a Toy Story or something came out this year?

Tom 55:22

Or 2001. I don't know. What did Nick Cage do?

Joe 55:28

Oh, we talked about Nick Cage, yeah. He wasn't doing anything great in this Captain Mandalelli's uh Mandolin, whatever his guy's name is.

Jen 55:35

Captain Corelli's Mandele.

Joe 55:36

Captain Corelli's Mandolin.

Jen 55:39

Oh, I looked it up. Okay.

Joe 55:41

You want to give us a hint then, Jen?

Jen 55:43

It's another um, it's the first in another long line, like a first of another story, a bunch of different movies. I can't think of it Harry Potter? Paragon and Sorcerer's Stone. Uh grossed approximately 974.8 million dollars.

Joe 56:01

Beat it by about 80 million.

Tom 56:03

Yeah. Um, you know, it's funny because I obviously those those movies and books were hugely successful, but I don't think of them having the cultural impact that these films did. Like I think they did.

Joe 56:14

I think they did too.

Tom 56:16

I think they did it.

Joe 56:18

There's still a Harry Potter world in uh Orlando, Florida. Yeah.

Tom 56:22

There is I think they did it in a different way. And and here's what I mean, specific to like what we do on this show, right? The Lord of the Rings movie came out and did to fantasy movies what the books did to the genre, which is every fantasy that comes out after it has to either be in response to or in contrast with the Lord of the Rings, right? This is like the new template. Harry Potter, and this probably speaks to the higher grossing, even though that's fantasy, it's like a kid's movie. Not that it's a it's not only a kid's movie, and obviously the movies get more mature as they go on, but like I nobody thinks of Harry Potter and goes like, I need to, I need to, my fantasy needs to be in contrast to this. I think if you do supernatural school stories, they're in contrast or supernatural school stories.

Joe 57:08

I like that. That's a TV. Let's let's let's create a TV show.

Tom 57:11

Whatever it be Wednesday or an anthology, Twilight, or anything like that, right? But like uh I think that it's a different, it doesn't have like uh I'm dreading the day we have to do those, we do the Twilight movies and have to read those books and watch those movies. Um we don't have to do anything.

Joe 57:29

Are those fantasy, those technically or is that horror?

Jen 57:31

Those what young adults are I I don't I don't want to put a vote in for those.

Tom 57:35

I I would consider that I I mean whatever. There's werewolves and vampires, but that's a romance. Yeah.

Jen 57:41

If we wanted to do it, we could.

Joe 57:43

Right. Off the list. Off the list. If we don't want to, never was on the list.

Tom 57:49

Unless you have a secret list, Joe.

Jen 57:52

It's a different list.

Joe 57:54

Um, we didn't talk about this at all, which I feel like is we're bad people for not mentioning this, but like we we didn't discuss the whole sizes difference with the humans and the dwarves and the hobbits and how that how it was done, right? That was a big part of this, and that was a big question of and obviously one of the things where you know, when I was mentioning before my dad's, you know, my dad's saying, you know, well, I'm sure one day they'll be able to make this into a live-action movie with whatever technology they can. And a lot of this was just forced perspective and like filming scenes twice with stand-ins, yeah, large stand-ins and small stand-ins, and you stand further back, and you know, we'll we'll film at this angle so it looks like you're much shorter.

Tom 58:34

And right, they filmed special set. Sorry, Joe.

Jen 58:37

My favorite shot, and I think I don't know if it's just because it's in like it was in like the behind the scenes video or whatever, is when they go to Brie and the guy like walks in between them at the counter.

Tom 58:46

Yeah.

Jen 58:47

It was just like a guy with like a like on stilts with like really big, a big shoulder suit to make him look like bigger than them, and he just like sidles through them. It's such a good shot. Yeah. It's totally like just practical. Yeah. You know, nothing, nothing CGI there. It was great.

Joe 59:02

A lot of it's practical. I mean, there was there's some things where you could tell like it's superimposed on some some of the scenes, but I think a lot of it was practical. And I think that was also causing some friction between Peter Jackson and the studio because he had he wanted to do it this way, so it took a lot longer to film than shaking people down. Yeah.

Tom 59:25

Children to play the hobbits.

Joe 59:26

Yeah, or or little people. Why not?

Jen 59:28

Well, they did. They had those were the stand-ins.

Joe 59:30

Right. Yeah. But um, yeah, like so that I remember that being. Yeah, so they just used him with the him and the hobbits, they would just go.

Jen 59:40

Yeah, when they were in shots together, they could be together.

Joe 59:42

Yeah. Because of that, that the different hit the height difference with him and the uh the hobbits were all kind of on the shorter side for the most part, those actors.

Tom 59:50

So yeah. And we didn't go like I I teased it, I want to talk about it later, but like um Boromir's death in this movie. It that might be my favorite scene in the film. Like, what like you know, you referenced before, like when he comes out of his his temptation by the ring, and he's like overcome with emotion about how he's failed, and he's like, and then he goes right into um you know, trying to try to save Marion Pippin and try to these people, and you get to see like this is who he is when he was training the Hobbits on how to use swords on top of the mountain, and when he was like, that's who this guy is, and he's taken arrow shots, these things are like a quarter thick, you know?

Jen 1:00:29

Oh yeah, and they're hitting every vital organ, it's like hard lungs, stomach, killing guys. Yeah. Um but I hate that I don't hate it, it's just like dramatic for the movie, but he it's like before Aragorn comes over, like he's just like he knows he failed.

Tom 1:00:49

Yeah.

Jen 1:00:50

You know, he has to watch them get carried away and he can't get up, and it's like, ugh, it's horrible.

Tom 1:00:54

Yeah. Well, it's his punishment for falling to temptation. But and then he and then he and then he pledges himself to Aragorn and he calls him his king.

Joe 1:01:05

And like Yeah, I like how he grab he reaches for his sword, Aragorn gives him his sword and he like clenches it like very Viking like, or yeah, yeah. You mentioned him in the the cartoon live action being more of a Viking, and that's kind of a very Viking type thing. They have to like they have to die with their sword in their hand. They feel like if they don't do that, they're not gonna go to Valhalla.

Tom 1:01:23

But he also wants to, like, he he wants to re-swear his oaths. His oaths are to Gondor. Yeah. Right. And now he's he's telling he's telling Aragorn, who's not yet heard this from anybody, really, that he he's worthy of being king. Yeah, like it's it's addressed earlier in his conversation with Arwen that like he's worried, you know, he's Ilsidor's heir. Ilcidor fell, you know, and like is he worthy to do this?

Joe 1:01:48

And like this is somebody saying is he gonna fail too? I mean, you get that scene, they added the scene in here too, with him going to Frodo and like his temptation version of the temptation, which I feel like I get it. You're trying to bolster the Aragorn character and show like, no, this guy's the real deal, he's the really good guy, this is the guy you want. But I feel like it also is kind of lessening Baromir's character in the sense of like, duh, he's not gonna fail like that Schlob Baromir over there. He was weak. So I didn't like it in that sense.

Jen 1:02:19

I don't know. He that he Baromir wanted the ring before the temptation even hit. Like he was like, why don't we just use this thing? Like he just didn't understand why they couldn't use it. And you said before, it's a lot of pressure on him from it. Look at who his father is, like you don't even know what he's got family dynamics, we didn't even see that yet. Yeah. So it's like, you know, he he's coming there with like a lot on his shoulders already, and he's like, I got I gotta do and I think in the movie it's his dad like sent him there to get I almost feel like his dad sent him to get the ring. Or to get to get help, yeah, yeah. There's a cut scene in the extended, one of the other extended editions of the room.

Tom 1:02:58

It's Return of the King.

Jen 1:02:59

Yeah, Faramir and Boromir and all that. So there's more than I mean, yeah, I I get what you're saying, that it lessens Boromir, but I get I don't think that I think Boromir redeems himself in the end.

Tom 1:03:10

And and yeah, and and I think uh the other it that's intentional. Boromir is less than him. I mean, right? That's it's that's also I mean whatever that's what it is.

Joe 1:03:20

Yeah. Um I meant instead of like raising Aragorn, it lowers. Yeah, it does, yeah.

Tom 1:03:24

I don't know.

Joe 1:03:25

Yeah. I mean, I get it. It's it's you want to get a little bit more into Aragorn and you know, see what he's made of, and that's a good scene to put in there for that.

Jen 1:03:33

But I also do like that Aragorn's not like, no, I'm good. Like, don't worry about it. I'm I can stay with you because I'm not tempted by the No, he's not that good. He does feel like you're right. If I if I stay with you, like I'm gonna fall too eventually.

Tom 1:03:48

Right.

Jen 1:03:48

But like not right now.

Joe 1:03:50

Yeah.

Jen 1:03:50

Not at this moment, but eventually I would.

Joe 1:03:52

I'm good. I'm good for now.

Jen 1:03:54

Yeah.

Joe 1:03:54

Keep that thing away from me. I don't know what's gonna happen later on. Right. If it's still near me. Um, yeah, so uh successful movie, that's for sure. Made a lot of money and uh spawned a bunch of sequels, apparently, that were also successful that maybe we'll talk about some other time, like next next episode. Shall we rate the uh the movie? Give it our our rating.

Jen 1:04:17

Yeah.

Joe 1:04:17

Um who want anyone want to go first?

Jen 1:04:19

I'll go first. Five.

Joe 1:04:22

Oh, wow. Is this the first five?

Jen 1:04:25

No, I think I did I give Jurassic Park a five?

Joe 1:04:28

You gave it a oh no, you did get you did get Jurassic Park a five, sorry.

Jen 1:04:31

Yes, five. My second five. Five. Nothing's better. And and and there may be movies out there that are better than this, but in my eyes, I can't think of a movie that's gonna be that's gonna be better than this. Equal to maybe, but not better.

Joe 1:04:46

Yeah, well, equal to Jurassic Park.

Jen 1:04:48

Yep, yeah, perfect movie.

Joe 1:04:50

Tom.

Tom 1:04:51

I agree. I give this movie five stars. I think this movie I love this movie, and watching it again recently like it's better than I remember. And I remembered it being great.

Joe 1:05:01

I definitely enjoyed it more than I think I did in the past, probably coming to terms with some of the changes made and understanding why they were made. There's still some things that bother me. Like I said, the Council of Arlon, I still I still cringe at that. Like, I feel like they do a good job of that, but um that's probably the biggest one for me.

Tom 1:05:18

So, what do you give?

Joe 1:05:19

Um, I'm gonna give this a four point. I'm gonna give it a four point five. Okay. We're all we're all scoring this on par with Jurassic Park. That's what we're doing here.

Tom 1:05:30

Yes. So you have not given a five-star.

Jen 1:05:33

Oh, I can't wait.

Joe 1:05:34

No, one I I I think they will definitely be higher than four point five, I believe, in this series.

Tom 1:05:40

Okay.

Joe 1:05:41

I I think. I don't remember now. I'm trying to remember how I enjoyed these movies in the past and the in the you know, rated them in the past in terms of like which ones are the best.

Jen 1:05:50

I don't think I'm not thinking it's gonna be the next one.

Joe 1:05:53

I don't think it's the next one. No, it's not gonna be the next one. I think maybe the third one I might like more than the third one.

Tom 1:05:57

Third one is really good. They're all really good.

Joe 1:06:01

Um, yeah. No, I haven't given a five star yet. I don't know if I'm gonna if we're gonna get to a five-star. I don't know. Maybe we'll see.

Jen 1:06:07

Someday.

Joe 1:06:08

Someday, maybe. So uh successful adaptation so far.

Jen 1:06:12

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Joe 1:06:14

Yes, I I think so too. I I think sorry, Christopher Tolkien.

Jen 1:06:17

Yeah, I the tokens have to just calm down.

Joe 1:06:20

Um yeah, I get it. Is it is it is is the tone a bit different than the books? I would say a little bit, but not that much different.

Tom 1:06:28

Yeah, no, I think it's the focus is different. That's the difference.

Joe 1:06:32

And the feel the feel is different, and the pacing, the pacing is much different.

Tom 1:06:36

The pacing is different. I think the I think the vibe is exactly where where it needs to be for cinematic adaptation of these books.

Joe 1:06:44

Yes. Um, I agree. I thought so too. I think I think it's it's captures those different, you know, the mysterious kind of um uh murky, evil portions of it, and then like the kind of the light, fun, hobbity portions of it. And I think it does a good job trying to put all of that in there. Um, making it a little bit more broader. But uh yeah, so I agree. Shall we uh wrap it up here then, I guess?

Tom 1:07:11

Sure. Yeah.

Joe 1:07:12

All right. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Blue Sky, uh, Discord, come over there and continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Any final words, Tom?

Jen 1:07:37

No.

Joe 1:07:37

Jen, would you like to close this out?

Jen 1:07:39

In place of a dark lord, you would have a queen. Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair.

Joe 1:07:57

I will I will despair.

Tom 1:07:58

That was really well done, Jen.

Joe 1:08:00

Yeah, you sound that was it sounded just like her, to be honest with you.

Tom 1:08:05

That was really good.

Jen 1:08:07

Thank you.

Joe 1:08:08

Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.