Tom 0:00

Imagine taking 17 years to write a 1,000-page mythology for England based on linguistic puns, only for a New Zealander to turn into a three-year hiking commercial where Vigil Morrison breaks his toes for our amusement. We're comparing J.R.R. Tolkien's High Church Literary Monument to Peter Jackson's Ray Harryhausen Meets David Lean Fever Dream.

Joe 0:45

Who the fuck is Ray Harryhausen and David Lean?

Jen 0:48

No idea. No idea.

Tom 0:52

I suddenly feel all right. So Ray Harryhausen.

Joe 0:55

Oh, you know this already without having to look it up.

Tom 0:57

Yes. So he's a visual effects guy from yeah, very, very famous. Yes. And David Lean's director did Lawrence of Arabia, amongst other films.

Joe 1:07

Yeah. Good thing we put that in there for everybody. I was just, I was just testing you, Tom. I knew who they were.

Tom 1:12

I know you do. Yeah, of course. You do. I knew. You knew that I knew you that you knew, which is why you were willing. Yeah.

Joe 1:19

Flash of the Titans, Mighty Joe Young, Spies Like Us. Spies Like Us, your favorite movie. My favorite movie. I said it's a great movie. It's got some of the you know classic bits. The the Doctor, Doctor, Doctor, Doctor bit. Come on. Is there another is there another bit that's better than that in all of cinematic history?

Jen 1:39

Probably.

Tom 1:40

Possibly.

Joe 1:41

It's not in this movie. Maybe the uh 11sies?

Tom 1:44

Elevensies is a funny bit.

Jen 1:47

There's a lot of good bits.

Joe 1:48

This is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big andor small screen. I'm Frodo Perry.

Jen 1:57

I'm Aragorn Isgro.

Tom 1:59

The name is Underhill.

Joe 2:02

Oh, I thought you were going to go for a Tom Bombadil.

Tom 2:07

Not enough time. So not appearing in this picture.

Joe 2:10

Yes. Uh today we're going to be discussing the Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring. We're we're starting our trilogy. Although this will be uh a six-part series.

Tom 2:22

Yes.

Joe 2:22

As we are just, I feel like we're like doing some sort of like history channel six-part series on the Lord of the Rings. Um, as we begin our slight shift in format, where we're gonna be doing um each each topic that we cover or literary adaptation that we cover is gonna be split into two episodes. Um, so you'll get a part one and a part two. So we'll have two parts for Fellowship of the Ring, uh, and then I'm sure you can do the math and figure out the rest.

Tom 2:56

Yeah, I feel like um you waited until we were done with Hitchhiker's Guide, just so you wouldn't have to hear me talk for two full episodes about that book. But uh I'm excited about this change, Joe. I think it's uh I'll I'll we'll we'll we'll be able to talk about these things without feeling like we have to rush to meet some imaginary clock.

Joe 3:17

Yes, although there will still be a clock and it will be very real. Um and Holger's pointing out in chat that well, this this is broken up into six books, this trilogy.

Tom 3:27

That's true.

Joe 3:28

Yeah, we won't be all right, it is we won't be strictly we won't be strictly only talking up and through up until uh they get to Rivendell in this episode, though. Although who the hell knows? And we might, depending on how fast we get through this. Uh all right. So now that we've taken care of that nonsense, Tom, what was your first introduction to the Lord of the Rings?

Tom 3:48

Oh wow, that's this is definitely one of those things that like I just always knew about it. Uh my father was a big fan of these books. We have I actually have his collection from like I think from the 60s of The Hobbin The Lord of the Rings with a four book uh box set. But my my first like actual experience was probably the the Ralph Bashiki cartoon for that that's that's the fellowship in half of the two towers. That's probably the first actual experience I have with with the the medium. I read the books for the first time in sixth grade. I distinctly remember having a panic attack because I had the book just in my backpack and I uh must have like thrown like my math textbook, like it split the book and it ripped one of the pages in half like uh horizontal uh vertically, rather. So like half was still in the binding and the other half was just loose, and I had to like tape it with scotch tape. It's not 100% aligned. Um love these uh part of my childhood.

Joe 4:49

Jen, how about you?

Jen 4:52

So I have like a really vague uh childhood memory of watching the cartoon. Um I think it was the one is there's one of Return of the King?

Tom 5:02

Yes.

Jen 5:02

Like Frodo of the Nine Fingers. I have a memory of that.

Joe 5:07

And that's why I remember he had nine fingers.

Jen 5:13

Um anyway, and then in college, meeting my DD group, of which we both were a part of, and then going to see all these movies multiple times, loving them, seeing all three on one day. Oh, yes. And then eventually I did read the books, um, but I haven't read them in a really long time since I read them once a long time ago. So probably like at least 20 years ago.

Joe 5:38

Yeah, and I I would say, and I I don't know if it was a specific one of these movies, but I do remember one of these movies, and it could have been Return of the King, where I would just go with people when there's nothing to do. It's like, uh, what do you want to do tonight? There's nothing to do. I'll go see Lord of the Rings again. And we go to the movies and watch it. Like I remember like one time at like going to the movie theater at like 12, 12:30, like the last showing and watching it, getting out at like 3 a.m. 3, 3:30 a.m.

Tom 6:03

It was the right choice.

Joe 6:04

Yeah, always, always was the right choice. I think it was the return of the king, but I can't remember specifically. But yeah, I feel like I've seen maybe that movie the most in the movie theaters out of any other movie I've ever seen in the movie theater.

Tom 6:16

So I think right when Jim was referring to the All Day Marathon, if memory serves, that was the premiere of the Return of the King. It was. Yeah. That was preceded by the extended edition of the first thing. I actually have right up up here uh the little tri-frame film thing that we I think when we did our Hobbit episodes, I I pulled one of the things.

Joe 6:39

Oh, you pulled yours out of it.

Jen 6:40

No idea what mine is. You guys are good. I have no idea. But yeah.

Joe 6:44

This it's got one frame from each movie in here. There's three windows, and there's a frame in there from each. If I could I I might be able to tell you which uh all right, so the fellowship is it looks like Aragorn in Rivendell, maybe with the is he with is with the broken sword? I can't tell. Uh oh, God knows what the two towers is.

Tom 7:04

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just save it, save it, save it for parts uh for the next one. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I will I'll tell you what, when we do the whatever I'll find this when we do uh uh the intro for the second part of this episode, I'll keep mine down from the shelf that it's on.

Joe 7:21

Uh friend of the show, uh well, it was Tony who had the Aragorn cutout, right? The movie theater Aragorn came out.

Tom 7:27

No, I have that. I I brought that to his house.

Joe 7:29

Okay.

Tom 7:29

That's that's what we're doing.

Joe 7:30

So he should he should make an appearance next up next time, Tom.

Tom 7:33

Oh, he can't really fit back.

Jen 7:35

It was a legoless cutout, too. I don't know.

Tom 7:37

Tony may have that.

Jen 7:38

Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember. Yeah.

Joe 7:42

Um, so my yeah, my uh introduction to the to the Lord of the Rings. I feel like this is just kind of like a rehash of the Hobbit, right? Obviously, I I read The Hobbit first and knew of these other books that were supposed to be really good, and I read them, and that's the end of that. Um, was very excited when they uh announced the making of these movies. I probably have said this many times before, but I remember like after watching the Hobbit cartoon, you know, reading the books and talking with my dad about it, saying, like, you know, oh, you know, I wish they could make these into a movie one day, but it would be too difficult. And my dad was always like, ah, one day they'll figure out how to do that. Um, and they didn't, yeah. And I have feelings about this movie, and I will be sharing them as we as we discuss this.

Tom 8:30

That's kind of you, Joe.

Joe 8:32

Yes, I'm gonna share my feelings. This is a safe space, right?

Tom 8:36

Sure, yeah.

Joe 8:37

Nobody's nobody's it's just the the two the three of us.

Tom 8:40

Yeah, just the three of us, and we're all safe. We can make it if we try.

Joe 8:45

All right, shall we get into a little bit of background on the writing of these books?

Tom 8:50

Yeah, I think we should.

Joe 8:51

And this is gonna be a we and we did this with the Hobbit, right? Where we kind of were we're gonna talk about this probably mostly in the first episode. Um, because I'm not gonna go back and talk about the the writing of each book because he he wrote them all together, just like Peter Jackson filmed them all together. So um, it's a wonderful thing when you're able to do that. So the genesis of the Fellowship of the Ring and the Lord of the Rings was not simply just a sequel to The Hobbit, uh, it was a massive expansion of Tolkien's lifelong project to create a mythology for England, as Tom mentioned in the cold opening. Uh project he felt was missing from the English literary canon. So imagine like I don't feel like there's a mythology for our country, so I'm gonna create one.

Tom 9:34

Pretty dope.

Joe 9:35

I feel like there was some mythology though for England already, right? Isn't that like the author King Arthur?

Tom 9:40

Like yeah, that story. That's that's I I that's definitely I guess Tolkien's is better though, probably maybe. Um I guess he means like almost like an origin mythology, which King Arthur really is. King Arthur's, you know, it's just a story, the once and future king, yeah.

Joe 9:57

Uh Tolkien famously stated his stories were language grown. Uh he did not invent languages for his stories, rather, he wrote stories to provide a home for his invented languages. He was uh a bit of a linguist. Uh specifically, the languages I'm talking about are Quenya and Cindarin. Cindarin. Yes. Okay. Which I think are both elf languages.

Tom 10:19

Both elven languages, high and low elf.

Joe 10:23

Yeah, one might be an older, an older version of the elven tongue. Um, Tolkien's experience at the Battle of the Somme profoundly influenced the narrative's tone. Uh, the Dead Marshes, though obviously that's later on in the series, were explicitly inspired by the desolate shell shock landscapes of northern France. And the camaraderie of the fellowship was a sublimation of the fellowship he found in his own circle, uh literary circle. The TCBS, most of whom died in the trenches. Now, I want to talk a little bit about the the TCBS because I had never heard of this until the research uh for this for this episode. Um, and I feel like we just have to talk a little bit about it because this is right out of a like a book or a movie, a British, you know, television movie or something like that. So the TCBS was the T Club Barovian Society. It was a semi-secret literary society founded in 1911 by J.R.R. Tolkien, him and his friends, Robert Quilter Gibb Gilson, Jeffrey Bach Smith, and Christopher Wiseman at King Edward's School in Birmingham. Right? The group met at Barrow stores and in the school library where they shared poetry, art, and literary discussions, forming a deep fellowship that profoundly influenced Tolkien's later work. It's kind of like the Dead Poet Society, but like British. Fair enough. Right? Is that okay? That's my thoughts on this. I feel like this is so singularly British. It's so this whole idea. Yes, this idea.

Tom 11:57

Very, very British.

Joe 11:58

Yes. Uh, all right. So where was I? Oh, yes, getting back to his dead comrades from the TCBS. Uh, he was uh so Tolkien was a devout Catholic, uh, something I actually didn't know about him either. Um, and he did describe his work as fundamentally religious and Catholic, though he intentionally stripped out all of the explicit religious references to allow the themes of providence and mercy to function as a sub-creation reflecting a divine truth. And this is from a Tolkien letter that he uh wrote back in 1953. So I'll ask this question just because I've never ever thought of these books as religious in any way, or never got that feeling or sense from them. Have any of you?

Jen 12:39

Um not really.

Tom 12:41

Well, I mean, there's uh good versus evil.

Joe 12:44

I mean, that's there's good versus evil.

Tom 12:45

There's definitely like the concept of mercy and the concept of um free will versus like predestination or whatever. No, so much predestination, but free will and and and choosing to do good and choosing to do right, that stuff's there, right?

Joe 13:00

I don't necessarily consider that religious, you know?

Tom 13:03

It's no, but I I I I I think it's very it is very Catholic, very Christian, uh those those concepts. I think like and I've read things uh I think it's Token has said or whatever, like um the I'm like you know the term but uh but in the summer early in the origin story, like these uh these beings. I think Gandalf is is is one of them, right? The Astari? Right, and these these these things that are at the beginning that that that Sauron was originally one of these things, like these are supposed to be oh like the Maya and the Maya, yeah, yeah. These are angels, you know, and the Balar. Right. It's just and you know uh before Sauron there was uh was it uh Melkor? Melkor, right?

Joe 13:43

Who Jesus Christ had pulled that out of my ass, right?

Tom 13:46

Who's a fallen angel? He's you know, yeah, and so there are these these vague elements that I think he specif I he says it even in that letter, right? That he specifically um downplayed the explicitness of them to have the story be what the story is, but those underpinnings, you could see them if you know they're there. It's like a uh magic eye or something, a magic eye.

Joe 14:08

Uh yeah, I mean you talk about you mentioned like mercy, and you know, it comes up in the Hobbit, and then uh there's the line in this movie about when um Frodo says about Gollum to Gandalf, a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance, and he's like it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. No um and saying, Would you, you know, would you be the one, could you be the one to judge whether someone deserves to live or die? Basically, to him. Which yes is uh that's definitely religious. I just thought, well, I just want to say Tolkien did a brilliant job of stripping that away to kind of um not make it so obvious or or tricking us into you know liking religion. I don't know.

Tom 14:48

Well, he was uh right. I think when we were doing the Lion Witch and the Wardrobe episode, we talked about how it like people's friends with C.S. Lewis and like everyone was like, C.S. You're putting it a little on the nose here, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe 15:01

And C.S. Lewis was not part of the uh TC, the T T Club Baruch and Society.

Tom 15:06

No, they became friends after they were professionals, right?

Joe 15:09

Yeah. Um, so the path to publication for this, you would think it was pretty easy with the success of the Hobbit, but it was actually a 17-year ordeal, uh, marked by logistical crises and professional friction. Uh, so the following the secession of the Hobbit, Tolkien submitted the Cimmerillion, uh, which Alan and Unwin rejected as too Celtic. I would have thought it would be too uh difficult. Yes. Um, that is definitely religious in the sense of it's literally just the Bible of Middle Earth, or basically. I mean, it reads like a Bible, it's just the create starts with the creation and then it goes into like different stories, and yeah, but I get I get why they rejected it. It's it's tough to get through. I think I tried to read the Cimmerulian like four times before I actually got through the whole thing.

Tom 16:02

I've never successfully read the like in one sitting. I've never successfully read the whole thing. Well, not in one sitting, but not in I mean like two years later, I'll read the next couple of chapters.

Joe 16:14

See, I would never do that, I would start it and then be like, I can't do this. And then and then when I decided to try it again, I would start again from the beginning.

Tom 16:21

Yep.

Joe 16:22

But I've gotten through the whole thing and it's it's cool, but it's different, that's for sure. Um, in 1950, Tolkien attempted to move the work to the publisher William Collins, insisting that the Lord of the Rings and the Simmerillion be published as one indivisible unit, which is how I don't know. Like, I could get doing the Lord of the Rings in one in one go, but I don't know how you would do the Simmerillion unless he meant like publish the both books at the same time as like a companion to each other. I don't know. Um, Collins balked at the sheer length and production costs, effectively rejecting the package in 1952, uh returning to Allen and uh Allen and Unwin. Rayner Unwin championed the work and to minimize financial risk during a post-war paper shortage, because this is what the this is what they were dealing with back then, and that might have been what Collins was talking about with the production costs, the paper shortage after the war. Uh, the work was split into three volumes. Tolkien was offered half profits deal, which he didn't get any advance, and he only 50% of the profits after the publisher broke even.

Tom 17:27

Wow.

Joe 17:28

Which sounds like a terrible, terrible deal, but I guess in the end it worked out for him. Yeah, yeah, worked out well for him. Well, I I don't even know is is Alan and Unwin still around? Like, what happens if that place dissolves? Um, I know other publishers have published this book. How does that work? Does anyone know how that works when like you see various publishers publishing the same book? Like there's a version from another publisher.

Tom 17:51

Yeah, well, the the rights, uh the publishing rights are separate from the copyright, right? The cover rights usually owned by the author, publishing rights are leased to a publisher.

Joe 18:01

Oh, it's it's leased. Okay, because I I would think they want they'd want exclusivity, but I guess may get some may get that.

Tom 18:06

It depends on who the writer is and what the flexibility they have.

Joe 18:10

Um uh anyway, like we said, it worked out for Tolkien in the end, although it sounded like a crap deal. Um, so a couple of fun things that in earlier drafts of the story, the protagonist was named Bingo Bulger Baggins.

Tom 18:26

Wow, bad.

Joe 18:27

Yeah. And Strider was a wood shoeed wearing hobbit. Now, think about that hobbit that wore shoes, named Trotter.

Tom 18:34

Also bad.

Joe 18:35

Yeah, yeah.

Tom 18:38

I have the trots.

Joe 18:39

Yeah, oh, yeah. I I was just about to reference the movie Hot to Trot, which is for some Hot to Trot, which comes up on the Another one of your favorite films ever. No, I don't like that movie really at all. It's just odd that it comes to mind.

Jen 18:56

I was thinking of my cousin Vinny. Mr. Trotter.

Joe 18:59

Oh, yeah. Ah, yes.

Jen 19:02

Mr. Trotter.

Joe 19:03

Yeah. Bingo Bulger Dragons. Although there's a Bulger that's Fatty Bulger in the book. Fatty Bulger. Fatty Bulger, baby. That's such a such a great name. I love it.

Tom 19:13

Oh my gosh, I should have introduced myself as Fatty Bulger.

Joe 19:19

Maybe next week, Tom. Next time, baby. Um, yeah, that's such a great Tolkien had such great names. I'm so glad he didn't go with bingo, Bulger Baggins, um, and Trotter. Um during World War II, Tolkien sent chapters of uh as a serial installment to his son Christopher, who was serving in the Royal Air Force in South Africa. And Christopher would provide uh critical feedback and correct map inconsistencies. Good job, Christopher. Those map inconsistencies are important. Yeah, right.

Tom 19:51

No one knew how much.

Joe 19:52

No one, yeah. And you know, the location of how far the cave is outside the camp is an important piece of information to know.

Tom 19:59

Need to know.

Joe 20:00

We need to know. Um, only two of the four core members of the uh TCBS survived World War II. Um, the letters from his fallen friend GB Smith are regarded as the primary catalyst for Tolkien's drive to finish his private mythology. So thank you for your service, uh GB. I guess he served two purposes. Yeah, I was gonna say which service both of them serving in World War One and also inspiring Robert Jordan to or driving him to complete the Robert Jordan.

Jen 20:33

Oh, sorry, so you are helping him to complete the oh boy, wrong.

Joe 20:39

Sorry, wrong author. Sorry. Sorry, Tolkien. All right, go ahead, chastise me.

Tom 20:48

That was enough, I think. You you're properly chastised.

Joe 20:51

Thank you. So the journey to making this into a movie, it was a long journey, uh, just like Frodo from the Shire to Mordor. One step, but that was at Mirimax. It started, it began in Mirimax. That's where all the problems were. It ended in an unprecedented fast track at New Line Cinema. Um, so if the story begins, Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh initially developed this project at Mirimax. However, uh Jerkoth Harvey Weinstein pressured Jackson to condense the entire trilogy into a single two-hour film.

Tom 21:22

What an idiot.

Joe 21:23

What a fucking moron you are, Harvey. Uh, on multiple levels. Jackson refused, prompting Miramax to give him a four-week window to find another studio.

Tom 21:32

Good.

Joe 21:32

Right? Robert Shea of Newline said, Why would anyone want to make I guess I guess at some point they convinced uh Mirimax to do two films. So uh Robert Shea over at Newline said, Why would anyone want to make two films if there are three books?

Tom 21:46

Right.

Joe 21:47

I don't know, Robert, because it's because they're a fucking moron. That's why. Uh Newline greenlit all three films to be shot simultaneously.

Tom 21:55

Crazy.

Joe 21:56

200 million 280 million dollar investment was considered one of the biggest. Biggest gambles in film history. Big gamble here. I don't think so. I mean, well, I don't want to say that.

Tom 22:05

No, nobody, nobody knew how huge a hit this was how huge a hit this was gonna be. That's true.

Joe 22:10

It could have been bad.

Tom 22:12

And I would say even bad. Even before it came out, like people thought, like, oh, it's it's it's it's probably gonna be successful, but I think nobody anticipated like the monolith that it that that it was.

Joe 22:23

No, and I mean 280 million for all three movies is actually not that much compared to how much movies cost nowadays.

Jen 22:30

Yeah. Well, that was a long time ago.

Joe 22:31

Yeah, 25 years ago. To the day, no, not to the day. So Jackson, his vision of this was to go for like a historical realism, treating the world as a real place rather than a cartoonish fantasy, which I don't know if I got that from the books, Peter Jackson, but I get what you're saying. A lot of people associate the cartoon of the Hobbit, kind of in there. Um, he famously described the goal as making a film that looked like quote, unquote, as previously mentioned, a Ray Harry Housen film directed by David Lean.

Tom 23:03

Interesting, interesting references, but I guess when you're a director in the film industry, these are more commonly known and yeah, spectacular visual effects and stunning vistas, uh, with with uh rapturous close-ups of their actors. Yeah. Okay.

Joe 23:21

I feel like this I could picture like um what's his face saying this? Uh Dennis, uh Dennis Miller saying this. Oh, it's like a Ray Harryhausen film directed by David Lean. You know, his like very far out there references to people that most people don't know.

Tom 23:44

Obviously, I love that reference, but every once in a while we'll like in case people didn't know, we will drop a reference that a hundred percent ages us. Like Dennis Miller is not it's been 25 years since he's been uh in the cultural conversation. He's uh great weekend update host, though.

Joe 24:06

Yeah, remember when he did Monday Night Football? Yeah, that was pretty much the end. I think, yeah. Well, whoever decided to make that uh decision to put him on there. Uh all right, anyway. I feel like everybody knows about this some of these things that I'm about to talk about, but we'll talk we'll say them anyway, right? Stuart Townsend was originally cast to be Aragorn. Surprise if you never heard that story before. He trained for two months, but this is the this is the ridiculous part, but was fired the day before filming when Jackson realized that he was too young for the role.

Jen 24:38

Yeah, what did you never meet him or see him before that?

Joe 24:41

Clicked.

Jen 24:42

I wonder what it was that like clicked for him.

Joe 24:44

I think that's just BS, and I think there was probably something else going on.

Tom 24:48

Yeah. I I the the other thing I think of is like, okay, I'm starting to have doubts. We're in rehearsals, I'm starting to have doubts. I'm seeing them on set. None of these doubts are going away. I also think uh whatever, I don't know, Stuart Townsend. Well, I don't think no, I think I've seen him in one movie. Uh but was it the Queen of the Damned? No, it wasn't that one. But I think if he was if he was knocking the hell out of this part, they wouldn't have made a switch. Yeah.

Joe 25:14

I agree with you. There's no yeah. Yeah, you can't be like, oh, I didn't realize he was that that young. This close up.

Jen 25:21

Yeah, right.

Joe 25:21

Right. It's the first time I've ever been really close to him.

Jen 25:24

It was a really close-in, close-up that got him.

Tom 25:27

He did a really good job looking grizzled in auditions.

Jen 25:30

There's no wisdom in his eyes.

Joe 25:32

He looks younger than Elijah Wood. We got we can't have him in this room.

Jen 25:36

No, no one can look younger than Elijah Wood. Elijah Wood, in certain shots, he's like a tiny baby. But he's also like 18 years old when he's filming this.

Joe 25:45

So was he only 18?

Jen 25:48

When he started, I think. Yeah. No, he's around our age. He's our age. He's my age. He started filming in 1999, so he was 18.

Joe 25:55

Oh, wow.

Jen 25:56

18, 19. He came out. He was 20 when it came out, when the first one came out.

Joe 25:59

So oh wow. I didn't realize he was that young when that. Yeah, I guess it's such a long time ago. That makes sense. Wow. So Vigo Mortensen was brought in as a replacement while filming was already underway. He accepted the role only because his son Henry was a fan of the book.

Jen 26:15

Thanks, Henry.

Joe 26:16

Yeah. Uh I I believe he had to, I think the first scene that he shot was the Weathertop fight. And he had to kind of learn the choreography while he was flying to New Zealand.

Tom 26:29

That's interesting.

Jen 26:30

It's an easy spot to learn choreography on a plane.

Joe 26:33

Uh I think it was more just kind of, I guess, maybe watching the stuntmen things is my guess. I don't know. Yeah. Sean Connery famously turned on the role of Gandalf because he didn't understand the script.

Jen 26:45

Good.

Tom 26:46

Right.

Jen 26:46

Thank God. Forfeiting a deal.

Tom 26:48

Denethor, too, I think. They they tried to get him Denethor later, and he said no to that too.

Jen 26:53

He could have been Denethor.

Joe 26:54

How does he not understand what the Lord of the Rings says? Well, he's probably too. He's like he's one of those guys who's probably out there while you guys were reading the fantasy novels. I was banging tons of women.

Tom 27:03

Yes. Yeah. That's 100% who he was. Yes. I was saying this. He turned this movie down. He didn't understand the script. He turned down the role of the architect in the Matrix uh Reloaded Revolution, Reloaded, because he didn't understand the script. And then he didn't understand understand the script for Lee of Extraordinary Gentlemen. And he said, You will not trick me a third time.

Joe 27:27

And he but yet he did understand the script for the Highlander.

Tom 27:32

That movie's dope, and I'll hear no slander.

Joe 27:35

No, no, I'm saying like he he wanted to be in that movie. And I think we I feel like we talked about this before, or maybe I was this was like an after-show conversation where I think he was reading for they wanted him for a different part, and he was like, No, no, I want the Ramirez guy.

Tom 27:50

That's amazing.

Joe 27:51

Yes, yes. Something to that effect.

Tom 27:54

Like, we want you to be the detective.

Joe 27:56

Yeah.

Tom 27:56

No, no, no. I want to be the Egyptian Spaniard. Yeah.

Joe 28:02

They were gonna pay him $450 million. Well, it would have earned, it would have paid him $450 million in backend points if he had taken the this role.

Jen 28:11

Oh my god.

Joe 28:13

Yikes. You think he he probably doesn't even regret it though? No.

Tom 28:16

He loves life. Yeah.

Joe 28:18

And then this one.

Jen 28:19

Say the next one.

Joe 28:20

This one I can't believe. Uh Nicolas Cage apparently turned on Aragorn to the family showing.

Jen 28:25

Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

Joe 28:29

I I can imagine. I'm trying to think of a good line that Aragorn says and deliver it as Nicolas Cage. But I can't, and maybe I never will. We need someone who does a good Nicolas Cage impersonation. Uh does uh Jimmy uh what's his name? Jimmy Fallon do one?

Tom 28:48

Uh uh what's his uh from performance.

Jen 28:50

I thought you meant like somebody we know who can do it for us.

Tom 28:53

I used to do a good one back when Nicolas Cage was, I don't know, when we we were both much younger. Uh but I haven't tried one in a while. But what's his face uh he's he's he's in the Daryl Hammond? No, um Andy Sandberg personage.

Joe 29:08

Or either one of them on Cameo. Can we have them came out? Can we have them deliver Aragorn slides from this movie?

Jen 29:15

As Nicolas Cage.

Joe 29:17

Yeah. Um or just have Nicolas Cage do it. I would love to see some of that. If there's audition tapes out there, oh man, I would pay. I would I would start a GoFundMe to get my hands on those.

Tom 29:28

I imagine Nicolas Cage wasn't auditioning at this point, just like here's my fee.

Joe 29:32

That's true. Well, he turned it down, so I guess they offered it to him.

Tom 29:36

Yeah.

Joe 29:36

Like that's interesting. I can't imagine Peter Jackson going after is he I guess he is he a big Nick Cage fan? I wonder if he would have done the British accent, the the annoying British accents that they do in this movie.

Tom 29:46

But Nick Cage was leaving Las Vegas, like then the rock Connair face-off. Like that was his run, like the four years prior to them starting to film this movie.

Joe 29:58

Yes, he was pretty hot at the time.

Tom 30:00

Yes, as as hot as somebody can be.

Joe 30:03

It was Hansel hot.

Jen 30:04

Um, but you can't be Nicolas Cage in this movie.

Joe 30:08

So we're leaving out a bunch of movies, though, Tom. You mentioned you mentioned the mid-90s run of leaving Las Vegas, Rock Ton Air, face off, City of Angels. Then we go into the late night, like City of Angels is 98, uh, also in 98, Snake Eyes, 99, 8mm, Bringing Out the Dead, Gone in 60 Seconds, The Family Man, and then the same year as Lord of the Rings came out, of course, Captain Corelli's Mandolin.

Tom 30:33

Oh, well, some of those were were were good. None of them are Lord of the Rings good.

Jen 30:38

When did Matchstick Men come out? I don't know.

Joe 30:40

That was a little later. That was 03. Yeah, that's so he came back with um adaptation. Was kind of, I mean, not like it was gone. He he did the Christmas car a Christmas Carol, the movie also, a voice.

Tom 30:51

I guess it was a I don't remember that.

Joe 30:53

I might have been it was a voice, so it might have been animated. Then he did Wind Talkers. Oh, yeah, that was Wind Talker's Sunny, and then Adaptation was like the did he win, he was nominated, I think, maybe for an Academy Award for that. Um, where he plays like twins. Yeah, and I'm just I'm just reading like it's a good job, Life Light of Full. That looks like Jared Leto, actually. That picture. Uh he did adaptation, matched six men, and the national treasure was right after that.

Tom 31:19

So that's just another.

Joe 31:20

Um, yeah, that would have been an interesting take on the role. Nick Cage as Aragorn, son of Aerathorn. Anyway. I know, just looking at that picture is ridiculous.

Tom 31:34

Um, I while we were watching this movie, uh, my wife asked me like how how um Elijah Wood got the part, right? Was there anybody else considered for the part? Um, because he's so good at it, but he's like he's an American lead in this very British, very English story. And so I had known this, but I forgot. I was looking it up to to answer her question that like they were they must have seen like four or five hundred people. They wanted somebody relatively unknown. Peter Jackson was not familiar with Elijah Wood's 10 plus years of acting um in multiple lead roles in major motion pictures, but um Elijah Wood like got a Hobbit-esque costume from just like local costume shops and had a friend film him reading lines from the book, like sitting in a tree and walking through the woods, and like whatever. Elijah Wood went out and got this role, sent the tape unsolicited to Jackson over in England, and they saw it, and like halfway through he's like, This is it, this is Frodo.

Joe 32:40

Who is this Elijah Wood character? Yeah, right. I guess he never saw the good sun with McCoy. I was gonna say, didn't it see the good sun?

Tom 32:47

Or the ice storm with uh yeah, that might not have come out when they were when they were casting this, but yeah. Or um what? Yeah, he was I I I would have thought the ice storm was 98. I might be wrong about that. Might be earlier.

Joe 33:01

Oh, I thought it was much earlier, but I could be very wrong about that. Uh what else? Radio Flyer.

Jen 33:06

Radio Flyer.

Joe 33:08

97.

Tom 33:08

I think he was Huck Finn.

Jen 33:10

Yes, he was.

Tom 33:11

Right? Or Tom Sawyer. I don't remember which one.

Jen 33:14

He I think he was Huck Finn.

Tom 33:15

Yeah, he had was a very successful child actor. Yeah. And then he the faculty.

Joe 33:22

I just realized too, he's he was reunited with uh Ice Storm co-star Christina Ricci in um in Yellow Jackets.

Tom 33:30

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Joe 33:31

Okay, sorry. That was all right. Are we ready to talk about this movie? Yes, the events that occur in the movie of The Fellowship of the Ring.

Tom 33:40

I'm ready.

Joe 33:42

Okay, I'm good good because I have no notes. I was a bad boy and did not take any notes for this entire movie just because I started watching it and I forgot. Oh shit, I should be taking notes. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna start now.

Jen 33:54

Um you remember what happens, Joe?

Joe 33:57

I think I remember what happens, and I'm sure the two of you will be able to, you know, jump in if if needed. Um, I was watching this, and and I haven't seen this movie in a long time, probably 10 plus years, I would say. And I haven't read this book in probably 15, maybe 20 plus years. So it was definitely a nice trip down the old nostalgia lane. Um, there are things in this book I didn't remember happening. I don't think there's so much anything in this movie that I don't remember happening. There's things that I I was like, oh, that must be in the extended edition. There were times I was doing that.

Jen 34:32

Yeah, I didn't watch the extended edition.

Joe 34:34

Yeah. Which is only three and a half hours long, so I don't know why you didn't.

Jen 34:38

But when I put on the the theatrical, I was like, oh, 259, that's not so bad. For some reason, there's a two in the hour slot.

Joe 34:49

I thought that the the theatrical cut was about two and a half hours, and the extended edition was three hours. Didn't remember that it was no, no, it's three hours and three and a half hours. So I was not able to watch it all in one night. But uh, this movie's got great spots where you can just be like, all right, I'm gonna watch it till here, and this I can start. Um, I can pick it up from uh from after they get out of Morir. So let's start with the opening, right? We get the the opening monologue from Galadriel basically giving us the background of the ring. Um I I've softened to this. I never used to like this. It was never I was never a fan of it. I I I think we talked about this in other movies. It was probably The Hobbit, I guess, because I think they did the same thing, right?

Jen 35:33

They did a whole Well, this is stuff that was in the Council of Elrond in the book, I think.

Joe 35:40

Yes, I think it comes out at different in yeah, different spots in the book.

Jen 35:44

Having reread this now and watch a movie immediately after, I have a new appreciation, honestly, for the adaptation because they took lines from all over and like seamlessly wove them into other scenes. Like they just would move them around, but they made sense like where they put them, but they were taking lines from like all different parts and like or it could be the same person saying it, but in a completely different part of the book, or it could be a completely different person saying it, or they're saying it about somebody else, but it's just like they use a lot of lines from the book like that where they would move it or give it to someone else.

Joe 36:21

Yeah, I as I was rereading this book, I was like, oh, this this is definitely a line from the movie. This is definitely a line from the movie. There's a lot of stuff. I mean, there's a lot of lines to pull to put in the movie from the book. So Yeah.

Jen 36:33

A lot.

Joe 36:34

You mentioned that this intro, we kind of learn a lot. We kind of learned some of it at the Council of Elrond, and I think we kind of learned some of it prior when Gandalf uh you know speaks to Frodo.

Jen 36:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, Gandalf and Frodo talk at the beginning in in the house for way longer.

Tom 36:49

Oh, yeah.

Jen 36:50

Yeah. So it could have been in there too. You're right.

Tom 36:53

Right? Like that's the thing. There's no they get the heavy exposition out early, and then there's very little like long exposition scenes.

Joe 37:02

Yeah. Um, and very contrary to the book where there's like exposition chapters. Right. Where it's just like like the Council of Elrond, where it's literally just everybody's telling a story. Right. And giving you a series of monologues. Yeah, what's been happening going on.

Jen 37:18

Um, like the Sauraban stuff is mentioned there instead of us seeing what happens. I mean, some of the stuff you just have to change for a movie. Can't yeah.

Joe 37:28

Plus, you get to do cool sweeping shots of uh of uh and Isengard and um you know just Christopher Lee lording over orcs. Yeah. Um it's great. Yeah, so I I think it's kind of funny. There's still things in there like that I'm like, oh yeah, that's right, that I still think are a little corny. Um, and we'll point them out as I'll point them out as we're going through this because there's definitely some very clear ones. Uh in the beginning, not so much. Um, I would say my one thing with Elrond when he's telling um Isildur. Yeah, he's like Isildur or Isildur. Yeah. But the emphasis on free the free people of Middle Earth, like, I don't remember if like the concept of freedom was was very much a uh pushed in the book, like the people were fighting for freedom. Like it's Peter Jackson and you know doing it, so it's obviously not American, but I feel like a lot of American movies do that. Like they'll insert the concept of freedom as like an underlying theme for right for something that has nothing to do with that with it.

Tom 38:42

Yeah, I mean, I guess freedom from being ruled by an evil demigod, yeah, sure. But like, yeah, there's like they're fighting to be ruled by their own kings. Thank you very much. Like, it's not freedom.

Joe 38:56

Yeah, but I think I agree. I think one thing that Peter Jackson does, and I guess Fran Walsh and Philip O'Boyne's do really well in these movies is take a lot of information and make it very digestible.

Jen 39:08

Yes.

Joe 39:09

So bravo to them for that.

Jen 39:11

The way they figure out what you need to know for this and the 75% of what you don't need to know. Like, like it's fine. I I love all of it, but it's also like, okay, we can move this along and like, but they pick out like the important parts of it.

Joe 39:29

Like, we don't need to know about Bill Fernie and uh Fatty Fatty Bulger.

Jen 39:34

Fatty Bulger is in this movie. He's in the movie.

Joe 39:36

Fatty Bulger is in the movie.

Jen 39:37

They say his name, Fatty Bulger.

Tom 39:39

And and right, he's the guy who who glowers and then he's happy and then he glowers again.

Jen 39:43

I don't know, but no, Vilmo says to him, Fatty Bulger. He says his name and then like says hello to him at the party.

Joe 39:50

I don't know if it's that same guy, but no, I think he says it, I think when he's calling out all the different families, he says the Bulgers, does he say? Or does he say that?

Jen 39:57

He does, but he says Fatty Bulger at one point when he's like talking to people in the crowd. Like just like a just like random talk.

Joe 40:05

Okay.

Jen 40:06

Not like a line in the movie, I wouldn't say. A bit of hubbub.

Joe 40:10

We get Farmer Maggot's pitchfork, but no farmer maggot.

Jen 40:13

Yeah, poor Farmer Maggot.

Joe 40:14

Poor Farmer Maggot. He's such a nice guy in the book. He takes he he brings him home for dinner and then takes him to the to the ferry.

Jen 40:21

I I never thought about how I pictured Farmer Maggot, but like to me, that's like a Peter Rabbit moment where they're like stealing the vegetables from the farmer. And I'm in my head, I'm like, oh, farmer Maggot's like a man, not a hobbit. But it doesn't make any sense that he would be living there as a man. But it's just to me, they're like the little hobbits going into like a human man's farm and stealing his vegetables. Like that's what I always thought, because you don't see him. And I'm like, no, he's a he's another hobbit.

Joe 40:52

Well, if he was a man, you'd be able to see him.

Tom 40:54

He'd be uh he'd be sticking out over those uh I mean it's not hobbit-sized corn. It's still regular-sized corn, I think.

Joe 41:04

Oh, that's true. Yeah. And uh and hobbit vegetables, they don't grow small vegetables.

Tom 41:08

It's not like there's not eating baby corn.

Joe 41:12

Um baby carrots.

Jen 41:14

Well, the carrot, it looks big, so maybe that's just a regular sized carrot. To them. Yeah. Okay.

Joe 41:19

There's a lot of funny little things in here, of course, that we love like when yeah, when they I mean we're we're skipping right into it, but when yeah, he breaks, he's like, I think I broke something. It's the carrot, the broken carrot.

Tom 41:30

Yeah.

Joe 41:31

There's a lot of good jokes like that in there, and the the they sell them really well, uh, Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd.

Jen 41:36

I feel like Mary and Pippin are more of like a comedy duo than they are in the book. I feel like Pippin's just like young and like he's pretty much the same, but Mary's like a little bit older, like a little more grounded than like he is. They're not like just being mischievous together the way that they are in the movie, which I don't mind it, but it's a little different.

Joe 41:56

Yeah, definitely different. Um, but I think yeah, they're they're the in the movie, they're the comic relief, basically.

Tom 42:02

Yeah.

Joe 42:03

Um they have their moments.

Tom 42:05

One of the big changes, right? We we've kind of alluded to it, but here's where I think that stands out, right? In the books, Frodo gets the ring on his 33rd birthday from Bilbo, and then years and years pass. 17 years past um he's 50. He's uh roughly the same age as Bilbo when Bilbo Bilbo leaves, right? So he's approaching middle age. He's a wise, learned hobbit. Well, no, no, no.

Joe 42:30

50 I don't think it's middle age. I think it's a big thing. No, it's approaching like like an adult.

Tom 42:34

33 is 33 is the equivalent of an 18th birthday. So yeah, he's in his 30s, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um but like and and so the the relative youth of Marin and especially Pippin, like is is seen in that like Inferno's higher level of of age and maturity, whereas they're all of the same age, right? They're all peers uh in the movie, which I think works better for the film.

Joe 42:57

Yeah, yeah. And they they did that obviously for just the sake of you know moving things along. Like we d it's not like they're gonna show 17 years, but they're not gonna be like 17 years later.

Jen 43:06

No, because then there's no like there's there's no um what's the word? They're not like worried about when he has to. He's like, Gandalf, even when Gandalf comes back and they have that whole long conversation about the ring, he's like, you don't have to rush, but you should probably go soon. Yeah.

Tom 43:22

He's like, oh I'm gonna go.

Jen 43:23

I'm gonna leave in like a couple of months. Yeah, like what there's no urgency. That's the word I was looking for. There's no urgency. It's not like get there, we have to leave tonight, go, you know. It's like, all right. I mean, I mean, he's like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wait too long, but like you probably you can wait a little bit.

Tom 43:38

Yeah, right. Where the the movie like once the prologue sets the s the the the historical stakes for everything, the movie just moves. Like there's an idol in the beginning when you first see Bilbo a Frodo in the Shire. But like everything kind of propels itself forward very quickly after that.

Joe 43:54

Yeah, which is the movie definitely does that. There's no like there's no like, oh, this is still going on or this is lagging. Never has a feeling like that. And that's again another thing. It's one of the reasons why I think this movie was so successful in the series was because I think Jackson did a good job of taking this dense, you know, very British fantasy and turning it into more of an ad uh palatable in Indiana Jones, you know, action adventure type movie, but kind of keep by keeping it grounded in the fantasy.

Jen 44:24

Yeah.

Joe 44:25

Yeah. I know there was definitely people who didn't enjoy this, like Tolkien's son.

Jen 44:30

I can't. I mean, I I get it. I believe it because Tolkien hated everything. So why should a son like anything? How could you not like this?

Joe 44:39

Um, do I have any quotes here? I feel like I have a quote here from there was a quote, and I'm mad about it. Uh all right. So, author, son, and literary executor gave a blistering critique of the Jack and Jackson films in 2012. And he waits, he waits 10 years till after they come out to do that. Yeah. Uh stating that they had quote unquote eviscerated the book, turning it into an action movie for young people and widening the chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work and the final product.

Jen 45:09

I think it was beautiful and serious. I don't understand. Like, you can't make a movie that's the same as that book. People talking and talking and talking and talking and talking that's not a movie. Like I mean, I thought they took, I really honestly feel like they took the important things, they they whittled a lot of it down, they kept it moving. You know, we don't like to stay in Lothlorean for time unknown. Like they're so they're so long they don't even know how long they're there, like stuff like that. Like, let's just do we gotta do here and move.

Joe 45:41

I I thought I thought it very f ironic that they moved, they move very quickly to get out of the Shire in this, which is exactly the opposite of the Hobbit, where it's like, when you are you're gonna get out of the Shire anytime soon.

Tom 45:54

Yeah.

Joe 45:54

I I I think because this more of this story takes place. This there's a lot of time in the shire, like in the Shire, in Bag, besides just Baghdad, about Hobbits in the Shire, and then you know, Buckland and whatever. That's a that's probably half of this book almost.

Tom 46:09

Yeah, it is.

Jen 46:10

Yeah, the first the firstly one is like all of that based on the thing.

Tom 46:15

I think I think it's five or six chapters before they're out of the shire. And they're and like it's it's a lot. And then like yeah, I think I think Bree is like the sixth chapter in the book or seventh chapter in the book or something.

Joe 46:25

Yeah.

Tom 46:25

Um, if you think about like you said before, Joe, right? Tolkien wrote this as a mythology for England, but also like he had these languages and he wanted to tell people why they existed and who spoke them. And the amount of lore and songs and songs and songs and songs that are in the book. That's some fans of the book. That's the most important thing. And like none of that's in the movie. Nobody sings.

Joe 46:53

Maybe one song when the elves and La Florian singing for Gandalf.

Jen 46:57

It's in the background, yeah.

Joe 46:59

Yeah. Um yeah.

Jen 47:00

Well, they sing the road goes ever on that Bilbo sings that mumbles it while he's walking away. Oh when he's like leaving.

Tom 47:09

Yeah. But yeah, that's the that's that's where I can see I can see especially someone who is so close to it, going, they they took the story and they took the plot and they lost all the nuance. I think I agree with you, Jen, that they like they adapted it and they kept the nuance for what was appropriate for an adaptation. But I can see someone being upset about like, what about the glory of the elves? And what about all the songs? And and maybe he liked the Hobbit movies more because they the elves are in those way too much.

Joe 47:40

Um we do get we get Gandalf uh singing in the beginning, right? When he rolls into town, he's singing a song.

Jen 47:46

Yeah, there's songs like in the re other movies, like Pippin sings and like they sing the Green Dragon song.

Tom 47:53

And but yeah, they don't just like walk and hear elves in the woods singing.

Joe 47:58

There and there is about less there there's no scene of uh hobbits taking a bath and singing a bath song because hobbits have bath songs. Okay.

Tom 48:06

I'm sure they have communal bath songs that are different from their individual bathing songs.

Joe 48:11

Probably. And I this was one of those things I did not remember when I read the book. There being a scene where it we're not in the bath, but I think when they go to Fatty Bulger's house before they're leaving, um, I think it's Fatty Bulger's house, or he takes them to another house. He's got baths ready for them, and they go and take a bath, and they mention how they can hear them singing a bath song while they're taking a bath.

Jen 48:34

And Tom Bombadil also sang a lot of songs.

Joe 48:37

Yes. Well, Tom Bombadil all he does is sing. And his girlfriend wife.

Jen 48:42

What was her name?

Joe 48:43

Oh, Goldfinger, not Goldfinger. Goldberry. Goldberry. Goldberry. Goldfinger.

Jen 48:48

Goldfinger. Um does Tom Bombadil. Do you think Tom Bombadil is gonna be in the um Search for the Hobbit story?

Joe 48:56

He's he's in the Rings of Power.

Jen 48:58

Is he?

Joe 48:59

He's in the second season of Rings of Power.

Jen 49:01

I haven't watched it. Oh my god. He's awful.

Joe 49:03

He's not, he's not, he's not my Tom Bombadil.

Jen 49:05

No, not my Tom Bombadil.

Joe 49:07

Not my Tom Bombadil. Get the get that shirt. Yeah, I was so I was listening to the audiobook for this, and it's a it's an old one, like from 1990. And the guy sings, I think I'm pretty sure it's the same guy I listened to do the audiobook of The Hobbit, because when he started singing the songs, I was like, oh, this is that same voice.

Jen 49:23

Rob Ingalls?

Joe 49:25

I don't know. I I don't I'd have to look it up.

Jen 49:27

Does he have to come up with this the tune of all the songs?

Joe 49:31

I don't know. There's dope himself? There's dope. Does he have kind of like a funny voice, Jen? Is uh is that the version?

Jen 49:37

I I don't know. I don't know. He's doing different voices for everybody.

Joe 49:41

This guy was somewhat doing different voices, but a lot of the voices sounded the same. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what was I saying now? We're talking about Tom Bombadil. Tom Bombadil. Yeah. So Tom Bombadil says sings something quite often in the book that reminds me of Ed Helms' character from The Office when he goes like Ridd it. What is he doing?

Jen 50:04

Riggig.

Joe 50:05

Yeah. Something like that. And I was thinking of like the last episode when all the people like when they go to the premiere of the office, like the documentary, and there's people like cheering and saying, like, riddig dig whatever, doing his thing. And Tom Bombadil says something similar to that in his songs over and over again. And I just kept thinking of Ed Helms as Tom Bombadil. Andy Bernard as Tom Bombadil.

Jen 50:31

How annoying.

Joe 50:34

And just doing his Andy Bernard character, but playing Tom Bombadil doing the Tom Bombadil lines.

Tom 50:42

So why do you think there's no Tom Bombadil in these movies? Is it just because it's too long?

Joe 50:47

There didn't need to be.

Jen 50:48

Doesn't serve any purpose.

Joe 50:50

It doesn't really serve much of a purpose in the in the book. I mean he he's he's there to build build the lore and mythology.

Jen 50:58

Yeah.

Joe 50:58

Right? That's what he does. He adds he adds mythology. He's he's he's been there forever and will be there at the end. They say like he's been there at the beginning, he was there at the beginning and he'll be there at the end.

Tom 51:08

Yeah.

Joe 51:08

He's kind of marches to his own tune and he's kind of like literally. Yeah.

Jen 51:13

He's not interested in what's going on outside of his area, I feel like, because I feel like he could be a guy that's on like a council with like Gandalf and Saurman and Galadriel and El Ron. Like he's up there with like the most powerful creatures in Middle Earth, but it doesn't seem like he really gives a shit about what's going on outside of his little area.

Tom 51:35

Like, yeah, I always got the impression that he is father nature, for lack of a better term. Like he's he's Middle Earth, he's not the people of Middle Earth.

Jen 51:46

Father Earth. Yeah.

Joe 51:48

And so like he doesn't such a misogynist Tolkien.

Tom 51:51

Well, Goldberry's uh mother, you know, mother nature.

Joe 51:54

She's she's hot.

Tom 51:55

She is hot too.

Joe 51:56

She is the daughter of the river, right? By the way.

Tom 51:59

And and and so like the the needs of men or hobbits or elves that that's not he I like the like like they say, he'll be here when they're all gone. Yeah.

Joe 52:10

Right. Well, they say he'll be there at the end. I I feel I I remember that's like a quote in the books. Somebody mentions it, maybe Gandalf says that or something like that. Um, not implying that he'll survive the end, but he'll he'll be alive till till the very end. Like he'll be like the last person to go or one of the last people to go.

Tom 52:26

But like that, and like the ring doesn't affect him, but he can he's even if he can be uh made to care enough about it to pay attention to where it was at all times, like he's not going to be able to stop bad people from trying to take it and use it. Like he's just not impacted by it.

Joe 52:44

Yeah.

Tom 52:44

So it's like I agree with you, like it's not necessarily meaningful to this plot, and it's another just huge digression. Like, if you put him in, either people wouldn't understand what the hell this guy is, or they'd be upset that there's not enough of him. So just not not don't put it in at all.

Joe 53:00

Yeah, I mean, I remember when first hearing about this, them making the movies, and I was like, Oh, they're gonna cut Tom Bombadil. Like, I think everybody was like, they're gonna cut that. And then people were like, No, there's no way they can cut that. I'm like, what are you fucking stupid? Like, they're cutting Tom Bombadil. It doesn't, it doesn't move the plot along at all, but it's a little side quest, not even a side quest, but um, it's more to build out like the mythology of the Middle Earth and what you know, the world building stuff. You don't need you don't need it for the story, it's not plot. Um, so I was not surprised that it was cut, and I was not necessarily that that upset about it. So we'll leave it at that. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, join us over in Discord to continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. And join us next week as we wrap up our discussion on the Fellowship of the Ring. Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.