Joe 0:00

C.S. Lewis's 1950s masterpiece was a slim volume of Christian allegories perfect for a quiet afternoon, but Disney decided what it really needed was a $180 million budget and enough tactical warfare to make Ridley Scott sweat. It's the ultimate transformation from polite academic fable to CGI creature feature, proving that any moral lesson can be improved by 5 million individual strands of simulated lion fur and the New Zealand landscape.

Jen 0:54

Yeah, I have a couple.

Joe 0:55

I have a couple too, but nothing like crazy. And I guess I feel like I don't have as many notes when I don't reread or read the um the material. So I think that's partially why I also didn't have as many notes. But um yeah, my younger one was getting pretty pretty into it, I think, for the most part. The older one was just like sitting on the couch on the phone, kind of half paying attention.

Tom 1:18

So um I I watched it with my younger one as well. Um he didn't particularly care. He was more interested in the real world than Nornia.

Joe 1:29

There's not many scenes in the real world.

Tom 1:31

No, but he really loved he loved the idea of the wardrobe. Oh, okay. Oh, like he was like, oh, it's winter on the other side. That's what he cared about, not like the animals and the witches or anything like that.

Joe 1:41

Yeah.

Tom 1:42

It'd be cool to go into a different season, you know. Uh so I don't know.

Joe 1:48

Uh, this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big end or small screen. I'm Joe Perry.

Tom 1:56

I'm Jen Isgrow. And I'm Tom Cocosa.

Joe 1:58

Today we're looking at the adaptation of C.S. Lewis's 1950 classic, The Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe, um, into this uh big, big, big budget spectacle of the Chronicles of Narnia, Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe. Um, I believe just by the title of this movie, it was already planned that they were going to be making this into uh multiple, multiple uh movies based on his uh his Narnia books. So um they made it how many does anyone know how many there are? There's like seven.

Jen 2:34

I think three. There's three movies. No, no books. Seven books.

Joe 2:37

Yeah, yeah, seven books. Yeah, they never got past three. Um I know this is an old book, and I think a lot of us might have read this when we're kids, so let's just get right into it. Jen, first introduction to The Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe.

Jen 2:51

Um, yeah, I must have just read it. I don't remember if I read it in school or just for fun when I was younger. I don't remember what age, but I hadn't read it in a long time. So imagine having time to read for fun. When you were a kid?

unknown 3:03

Yeah.

Jen 3:04

No such thing. I used to go to the li- Wait, I actually have a funny story because I went, I used to go to the library constantly when I was a kid. I was in like the reading is fundamental group, and I would go all the time and get books. But when I haven't been to a library in at least 20 years. So I went into the library to look for one of these books that we're reading, and I was shocked at how quiet it was. Like, I don't think I've been in a room that's that quiet with other people in it. It was like, it was like off-putting for like a second. I was like, wow, the library's really I don't know. I just like to hear my heartbeat. Right. I hadn't been in a library for so long. But yeah, so um definitely read it a long time ago, hadn't read it in a long time, but had seen this movie and um just reread it again for this and watched the movie again.

Joe 3:46

Yeah, I so I believe this was required reading if you went to Catholic school as a kid. Uh because I had to read this. I remember reading it. Um, I don't remember what grade I uh elementary school, maybe I don't know, fourth grade or I don't I don't know. I hadn't read it since. I did not reread it for this. And I'd seen it uh I saw this in the theater. I don't know. What did you guys were either of you with me when I saw this in the theater? I don't remember.

Jen 4:10

What year did it come out?

Joe 4:11

Oh five. I remember going to see this in the theater. I don't remember who I went to see it with, but yes, I definitely did see this in the movie theater. I was part of that $700 million plus um box office take. I remember this being a fun story though when I was a kid. Like I hated I hated like the required reading when I was a kid. I wasn't really a big reader then. Um, this was one of the stories though I remember enjoying um because it is a pretty good, fun, and succinct story, right? The book is not that long, right? It's no it's like less than 200 pages, I think.

Jen 4:47

It was like 12 chapters or something like that. Yeah, I don't think so.

Tom 4:50

Uh yeah, a little bit lower than that, but not too many. And they were short, relatively short chapters, too.

Joe 4:54

Yeah. How about you, Tom?

Tom 4:56

Uh I went to public school and I've never read this book until the prep for this podcast, a week or so ago. Oh wow. And I hadn't seen the movie either. Yeah. I I we had the book when I was a kid, it was in the house, but like I wasn't a fan of you know what I need? More Jesus-y fantasy in my life when I was a kid. It's really not. When I was a kid. I didn't know. And I it's not that Jesus.

Jen 5:20

It's not that Jesus. I didn't think it was Jesus-y. I well, as a kid, I would never have really picked up on that it was Jesus-y.

Joe 5:25

I don't remember it being Jesus y as a kid either, but I guess I was surrounded by Jesus y things, so maybe it just didn't work.

Tom 5:32

We were surrounded by real, yeah, real hardcore Jesus stuff. Yeah, this is an allegory.

Joe 5:37

Yeah, this was like nothing. Yeah, this was like not. This was yeah.

Tom 5:42

Yeah, so I I didn't, I literally I didn't even know what happened to this. I I knew the the general premise four kids, wardrobe, Narnia, witch, lion, right? I remember I remember Aslan. There was a witch, and there was a wardrobe. I remember when the movie came out, the amount of jokes that we made about Aslan. Oh yeah. But um, yeah, I didn't know anything was happening. So, like halfway through the book, I'm like, it's really not that Jesus y. You know, obviously then he dies and he comes back to life. And I'm like, oh okay.

Joe 6:11

Well he died for it.

Jen 6:17

For his s for Edmund's sins.

Tom 6:20

Exactly. I got it.

Jen 6:22

Jesus did it for everybody. This lion only did it for one guy.

Tom 6:25

So he's not technically.

Jen 6:27

This lion only did it for one guy.

Tom 6:29

So, I I I have to say, I loved the book. Loved it. I wish I had read it when I was a kid. Yeah, it was the same thing as like years and years ago, whatever. I first I first read Ender's game, probably in my 30s. And I was like, why did I not read this when I was a child? I love this story. Yeah, me too. Uh and and uh this is the same thing. I really, I really, really enjoyed it, even though it was clearly written, I would say for all ages. You know, but like it was written to be understood and enjoyed by kids. Like I enjoyed it so much that I was like, okay, I'm just gonna uh get the rest of them and I will read those at my leisure. Um yeah, but it was it was it was surprising to me. It was, it was there was some good stuff in there.

Joe 7:08

Well, when we cover the next two movies, uh not next not the next two weeks, you know, you can read those books. I haven't seen I did not see past this movie, and I've not read past I don't think I read any of the other books.

Jen 7:21

I don't remember, but yeah, I don't know anything about the other the other stories at all.

Joe 7:26

This is probably a great like intro to fantasy for kids. Um it's fantasy, it is definitely fantasy. It might not be like sword and sorcery type fantasy. Oh, there is there is swords in the movie.

Tom 7:38

The movie's pretty pretty good for that.

Joe 7:40

Yeah, it's kid, it's kid fantasy, I guess. Yeah, um, yeah. And there's definitely this movie is definitely of its time in the sense of like you could tell they pulled stuff from like Lord of the Rings, like we gotta do some Lord of the Rings type things in this from the movie, and and um you you wanna know when I when I looked up when this movie came out, this came out two years before Stardust, which was what we did last week. Okay, and I feel like this movie's way beyond that in terms of like production.

Jen 8:14

Yeah. I yeah, I think this I think pretty much this like you mean like the CGI and stuff like that?

Joe 8:21

Yeah, everything, just like the production value of the whole movie. Yeah.

Tom 8:25

This was this was designed to be a blockbuster.

Joe 8:28

Yeah, this is Disney, right? This is a Disney movie, everybody, by the way. Yeah, which is there's some irony in that. Um, when we go back into a little bit back into the history of uh the book and C.S. Lewis, and who was a friend of J.R. Tolkien, by the way. We mentioned Lord of the Rings, and J.R. Tolkien did not like this.

Jen 8:46

Uh I I would love to know what J.R.R. Tolkien liked, because all I hear about him is him not liking things.

Tom 8:55

He didn't like much. He was uh He liked the way things used to be, J.

Jen 9:01

Oh, okay.

Joe 9:02

Yes. I don't know. He liked the letter Q, whatever letter he had to do in his uh when he did the uh the dictionary. All right, so just go, let's go back, right? So C.S. Lewis, the origins of this book trace all the way back to a mental image that he had in his head uh since the age of 16 of a fawn carrying an umbrella and parcels in a snowy wood. This is some image that he had in his head. Um, that was kind of like the first spark of this. But the real world setting um was sparked by the outbreak of World War II, uh, which this movie starts in, which I don't think the book starts with a little World War uh.

Jen 9:41

Well, they just say they have to leave because of World War II. That's basically it.

Tom 9:45

The book the book assumes you understand that London was being bombed and they ship kids out to the country to keep them safe, whereas nobody in my family knew that. So that it was actually good that they had that framing device.

Jen 9:58

I don't that I don't mind I don't mind I don't think there's anything in here. There's a couple of brand new scenes, but nothing like out of nowhere. A lot of the scenes that are new are just expansions of stuff that's happening in the book, but you don't see it.

Joe 10:11

Yeah. Which I get.

Jen 10:12

And this is like a big opening.

Joe 10:14

And I get it because it's there to connect like the stakes almost and the the put the set the emotional, I guess, the the emotional state that the children are in. Um right, and so so Lewis, this whole right, prof uh, what's his name? Professor Kirk, right? This is that's who they go and stay with.

Tom 10:33

Okay, right?

Joe 10:34

Um Lewis is basically Professor Kirk, right? He he hosted several schoolgirls, which is uh I didn't dig too deep into that, at his Oxford home during the Blitzkrieg when they were evacuating uh children and people from London. Um, so so this is he's kind of putting you know some of his images plus his experience into this, um, which is the whole premise of the story, right? For the Pevensey siblings to be sent to to live with the professor. And the character of Aslan, I know we were talking about Aslan a little bit before, was not really in his original plans. He had a dream about a lion and said, I need to add this to my story to help it out, basically, is what so I so I get so I I always also wonder if like the whole Jesus he sacrificed thing was planned too and it wasn't a lion, or I think that might have came in with a lion to help pull some of this stuff together. But the novel was published in the UK by Jeffrey Bless. Bles, please, it's like blessed with only one S though. I don't know how you pronounce that. Uh on October 16th, 1950. Um, its journey was not without resistance. Bless initially feared the book was too strange of a departure for Lewis, uh respected Christian apologist and might damage his reputation. Furthermore, Lewis's closest friend or close friend uh and fellow inkling J.R.R. Tolkien famously disliked the manuscript, calling it a jumble of unrelated mythologies due to the mixture of Greek fawns, dramatic dwarves, and of course, Father Christmas, aka Santa Claus.

Jen 12:11

That's a good friend. If you don't like my manuscript, just keep it to yourself. Don't famously quote how much you don't like it.

Tom 12:26

Yeah, I it's it's he liked I he liked C.S. Lewis's other writings, and he just thought like this was he thought this was an odd departure for Lewis and he should stick to what he was good at.

Jen 12:37

To be fair, I'll use a Thomism. Um this isn't like he was in social media. He probably wrote this in a letter to someone and it was and then it was released to the general public. It wasn't like he went out into the the news media and was ragging on his friends. So I'll be fair to him about that.

Joe 12:55

Yeah, I mean he he has I have a whole book of J.R. Tolkien's published letters.

Jen 12:59

Uh yeah, it's like somebody went through emails after you die and just published basically.

Joe 13:05

Um so also uh the yeah, that like I guess there was a bit of criticism, not just from Tolkien, but uh other people. Um so E.M. Forrester, who's the author of Passage to India, had argued that the religious parallels were too heavy-handed and they felt like propaganda rather than a story.

unknown 13:23

I don't know.

Joe 13:23

And that the uh the blood sacrifice of Aslan was too graphic and damaging for children.

Tom 13:30

Yeah.

Joe 13:32

A segment of the library community uh thought that the book was a little too scary and moralistic. So for children. That's for children.

Jen 13:40

I don't know.

Tom 13:41

Have them read some Grimm's fairy tales instead.

Jen 13:44

Yeah.

Tom 13:45

Oh yeah, those are much nicer. Right. Um Yeah, I mean, look, I I I felt like um I felt reading it, there were probably there were probably a allusions to Christianity that don't exist anymore. Like for us that like I didn't get in the first half. But the back half of it is, I mean, between Santa and and and the resurrection, you know. It gets it gets pretty like I Santa Claus coming, Father Christmas showing up in the story. Like I was it does, it's still like it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Joe 14:19

It doesn't, it's almost like we need to get from A to B. How do I get there? Let's just throw Santa Claus in there and have him give them gifts that they're gonna need later on.

Jen 14:30

Think of Santa Claus being a Christian thing, even though it is, obviously. Right, right. So many people celebrate Christmas and with Santa Claus that aren't religious at all. So I kind of feel like Santa Claus is not really even affiliated with religion anymore, even though he is. Then maybe, yes.

Joe 14:48

In the 50s, yeah, it was heavily still very like.

Jen 14:52

Like obviously, if you're Jewish, but other than that, and even if you are Jewish, some people do both, so it's like it's just a very like generic Christmas thing.

Tom 15:01

Yeah.

Joe 15:08

Yeah. And yeah, and I think that's that's another thing of the times. Um right, we're saying, oh, this is not very religious, but Santa Claus shows up, and up back then, Santa Claus was more religious than he is commercial of a uh of a uh an idea or of a person. Um so how did the wardrobe get into all this, right? So this was also inspired by uh C.S. Lewis's real-world interactions at his estate, which was called the kilns. Um, one of the evacuee children that he hosted was fascinated by an old wardrobe in the house and asked, had questioned Lewis about what was behind it. Um also him and his brother, uh Warney had created an imaginary world called Animal Land when they were children, which he transformed into Narnia. And he dedicated the book to his goddaughter, Lucy Barfield. See the see what he did there? Yeah. And he noted in his dedication of the book to her that she might already be too old for fairy tales. Yeah. So eventually, though, the book became obviously a hit. I think it took a little while. There was, like I said, there were some uh differing opinions on uh the contents. And it's interesting because Tolkien's problem was that there was too many different mythologies mixed in. I guess he really didn't care so much about the uh the Christian or religious uh intonations of it, but more of just like he's like, no, these are different mythologies. You can't start putting these together.

Jen 16:46

I actually looked up um the difference between fawns and saters because they're very similar and they're specifically two different things in the book and in the the movie. So saters are Greek and they're more like crazy and like party animals, like lecturerous things. Okay, yes. And fawns are like sweet and like more more um more innocent and they they help lost travelers. That's like a thing that they do. So that makes sense to me.

Joe 17:15

Aaron Ross Powell Those are two different mythologies, right? One's Greek. Greek and Roman.

Jen 17:19

I'm sorry, fawn's Roman, Satyr's Greek.

Joe 17:21

Okay. But they're essentially the same creature in the sense of more.

Jen 17:25

Well, I think Satyr's started off as like a horse. Not a not a centaur, but like just the bottom was a horse. And then they kind of ch they kind of morphed over time. I I I looked it up this morning. So throughout the Renaissance, they kind of became the same thing. They are goats now.

Tom 17:40

Okay.

Jen 17:40

Fawns are goats. Satyr started out as a horse leg, like back legs of a horse, not a whole horse body, like a centaur.

Tom 17:48

So then but then over over time, right.

Jen 17:50

Over time they kind of m morphed together into the same thing. But I Googled it and there was like a ton of posts and articles about the difference between satyrs and fawns. So I wasn't the first confused person. Because I know my daughter just read and watched Percy Jackson.

Joe 18:04

Oh, yes.

Jen 18:05

And he's and her friend in that is a Seder. But that's Greek, so now I understand why.

Joe 18:09

Uh Satyrs are Greek, fawns are Roman.

Jen 18:12

Roman. Little Seder fawn information for you guys out there.

Joe 18:16

Thank you.

Tom 18:16

Appreciate that. That's good, Jen.

Jen 18:18

But maybe that was what annoyed J.R.R. Tolkien, because he was putting Greek and Roman and Germanic dwarves and all different kinds of things into the same world. But who cares? Because it's not real.

Joe 18:30

It's it's a fantasy. I mean it is real in the book, I guess, but some people take their fantasy very seriously, Jen.

Jen 18:39

I know that. I know.

Joe 18:40

I guess Tolkien was one of those people.

Jen 18:42

I think so.

Joe 18:43

There was an earlier uh release that this was like a PBS TV thing in the 80s, I believe, that originally came out. Um and I actually remember that very vaguely. My wife kept saying like she really likes that one. Um it was like a miniseries, if I remember correctly, um on PBS.

Jen 19:01

And I recommend watching it. That's interesting. I don't know if I've ever seen this.

Joe 19:07

Yeah, yeah. Um, it was it was okay. Not definitely not this. Well, so there's some interesting stories about this becoming a movie going all the way back to the mid-1990s. So Paramount Pictures and producers Kathleen Kennedy and Frank Marshall, who were the uh powerhouse duo behind Jurassic Park and Indiana Jones, right? They held the rights to the Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe. And their vision of this film was a radical departure from the source material, uh, driven by the belief that 1940s British era kids was unrelatable to the modern modern global audience. They wanted to modernize the story by moving the Pevensey family from London to Brentwood, Los Angeles, and instead of escaping the blitz, the children were then sent to England because Edmund had been caught stealing CDs from a local store.

Jen 20:09

Okay.

Joe 20:10

This was their idea of this.

Tom 20:12

That's a bad idea. It's a bad idea.

Jen 20:15

Everybody has to go to England.

Joe 20:16

The kid, yeah, all the kids, I guess. Because I I don't know why, Jen. I don't I don't have that script. I'd be like, I'd love to see what it is.

Tom 20:22

Oh my god.

Joe 20:24

Reportedly, these the uh the the film would would have opened with a surreal image of a helicopter lifting a giant lion statue over smoggy LA skyline. Oh no. Uh needless to say, uh C.S. Lewis's stepson, Douglas Gresham, uh was not happy about this.

Jen 20:42

Thanks, Doug.

Joe 20:45

There there's a story, I don't know if this is true, but there's a story that says instead of the white witch, the white witch tempting Edmund with enchant with uh the Turkish delight, they were they were enchanted cheeseburgers.

Jen 20:58

Oh no. Okay.

Joe 21:02

Gresham Gresham's quote, I literally hurled the script at the wall about four times. I thought, what the heck is wrong with these people? Uh think about that movie.

Jen 21:15

Yeah, no, I don't want to. It does sound very 90s though.

Joe 21:19

Now I wonder though if like the rest of the Narnia stuff would stay basically the same. I mean, except the cheeseburgers. The cheeseburgers instead of Turkish delight.

Tom 21:28

I don't know. Like that I I imagine, I don't know. I imagine not.

Jen 21:33

She likes skateboards in.

Joe 21:36

No, no, she'd be on like rollerblades. If this was the 90s, it would probably be rollerblades. Oh my god. Needless to say, that that didn't happen, right? Fast forward to 2004, right? Once Walden Media secured the rights uh and entered into a co agreement uh with Disney to make this movie, which was back, which was in 2004. Four. This this all came together pretty quickly. Like once they got the rights, Disney was like, let's do this, let's move.

Jen 22:07

Uh this was like right on the back of Lord of the Rings, probably. So they would hurry up and get this out as fit right before that wave comes crashing down. Yeah, because Lord of the Rings came out in 03.

Joe 22:21

So let's yeah, let's ride this wave really quickly. Uh Disney's like, let's move this along. And of course, they have the resources to do that.

Tom 22:28

Yeah.

Joe 22:29

Uh director Ad Andrew Adamson was chosen due to his deep connection with the source material. Um he wanted to direct a film that matched his childhood memory of the book rather than just the the the actual story itself.

Jen 22:43

Well which I think it m pretty much matches the story.

Joe 22:48

Yeah, but I think right, and you mentioned this, right? There's stuff they expand upon and Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like he wanted Narnia to be more like of a tangible, real type of experience rather than just like a dream sequence. Um you know, one of the things obviously is you know that final battle.

Jen 23:08

Yeah.

Joe 23:08

Which is what, like a paragraph in the book? It doesn't really talk much about it in the story.

Jen 23:12

Probably the longest expansion that most of it. It's happening, but we don't see it.

Tom 23:17

Right, most of it's off screen. You're with the lion and and the girls when that fight is happening.

Joe 23:22

Yeah.

Tom 23:23

So yeah, they just show you all of it.

Joe 23:25

But I feel like you have this is like a Disney's like, no, no, you have to put it back in the back. You have to show that. Yeah, yeah.

Tom 23:30

Yeah, literally, like they're like the girl, like the the girls in Aslan get back and they're like, Where's Edmund? And like, oh, he's hurt. He fought the witch and broke her wall, and then that's what helped us like hold like Yeah, it's like the tail end of whatever you know, all that stuff.

Jen 23:44

You see him kill the witch, and like that's as much of it as you see, like they're fighting. He runs in, kills the witch, and like that's the end.

unknown 23:50

Yeah.

Jen 23:50

So yeah, I'm I that that you have to see. Like that, it's a movie. Like you need to see that.

Joe 23:56

I specifically remember when I went and saw this movie, thinking like it's I don't know, it's for me, it was a little unnecessary to go that deep into that battle sequence. Like, I felt like they were just going for like, well, this is a fantasy movie, and there's a battle in the story, so we have to make it a big spectacle because that's what we do in movies nowadays.

Jen 24:17

Well, what would you have wanted them to do? Um Yeah.

Joe 24:22

Well, I know that's not gonna I know they're not gonna not do that.

Jen 24:25

Yeah, like it's a that's what they're making. Yeah, I don't know.

Joe 24:28

I'm sure Disney was like, you have to make this a big battle scene. I mean, it wasn't a huge battle scene, I'll give them that. They didn't go like really, really overboard where you know we're not talking the Battle of the Five Armies, which was like an hour long. Right battle sequence. But yes, they added some I don't know, for me it felt so much maybe it was just because Lord of the Rings had come out, like they were just basically ripping Lord of the Rings off or like trying to use that same formula to where can we go to shoot this?

Jen 25:00

Like sounds crazy, but what about New Zealand?

Joe 25:03

Throw that out of there, guys. Just that all right. We also used Weta, which was which is bass down there, so right?

Jen 25:12

I mean, yeah, just don't mess with success.

Joe 25:16

I think the longest part of this whole production was was casting the children. It took them 18 months to cast the children. They mentioned overviewing over uh 2,500 audition tapes. Something that was interesting, though. Adamson uh wanted to cast all the children together, so he so he did it as a group in the sense of like the kids were auditioning, I guess, in groups, and he was like, Okay, we're gonna take this group.

Tom 25:43

Yeah.

Joe 25:44

Uh, because he wanted to make sure the chemistry worked. Tilda Swinton was his first and only choice for the White Witch. Um I thought she was okay in this.

Tom 25:55

If you look at like what her actual dialogue is, yeah, and how little of it she has, yeah. Her presence is the part, you know.

Joe 26:05

Yeah. And maybe that's what it is. Like, she doesn't there's not really a lot of room for her to explore the role or explore the character. It's just like she's a one the character's a one, you know, shallow, not very deep. Uh right, there's not really much, you don't know why she's doing what she's doing. She's just a witch and she's evil. And that's because witches are evil and mean.

Tom 26:28

Well, yeah. Yep.

Joe 26:30

I mean, the closest you get to anything is when at the end, with like when she talk when they talk about the laws of Narnia, and she's like, I'm, you know, I own the traitors or whatever. That there's that whole, that whole bit. I don't remember if that's is that part of the book?

Tom 26:43

It is. Yeah.

Jen 26:45

She um, yeah, I feel like if they made it now, there would be like uh what's her motivation? There'd be an extra like half an hour of the movie based on like her backstory and her motivation.

Joe 26:54

Yeah, yeah, she's not.

Jen 26:55

But you don't you really don't you really don't need it.

Joe 26:58

She's a young witch who got uh, I don't know.

Jen 27:01

Yeah, like Aslan did something to her. He didn't know.

Joe 27:04

But she's that's thank you, Jen. You know what? That's a really good point. Uh that would have been way worse if they did something like that.

unknown 27:12

Yeah.

Joe 27:13

So Aslan was originally cast uh with actor Brian Cox doing the voice, but they felt that his voice lacked the omnipotent softness required and replaced him with Liam Neeson during post-production. So this was like Cox had done all of the his parts.

Jen 27:34

I wonder if you could like find anything online. I don't know, I'm gonna look for it. Not right now, but I'm gonna look. Because it's gotta be out there somewhere.

Joe 27:44

Now this is now I wonder, right, this is 2005, so this is like Cox is pretty famous at this point. Yeah. Maybe not as famous as he is now.

Tom 27:55

I wonder if that's not as famous as he is now.

Jen 27:57

Well, he was in Troy around this time, too.

Joe 28:00

Well, yeah, when did Troy come out? And then Yeah, I mean Braveheart had already come out years ago. Oh, yeah, the year before Troy came out. Yeah.

Tom 28:10

Okay. And Super Troopers had already come out. So he was somebody.

Joe 28:13

Oh yeah. So he was definitely up on his upside there. He mentioned X-Men.

Tom 28:19

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, Severance, I feel like, has taken him to like succession. Succession, rather. It's taken him to like a level that I don't think he was particularly famous before. He was a guy that was in good movies.

Jen 28:30

Yeah.

Joe 28:30

He was a big theater guy too, the Brian Cox. He did a lot of he does a lot of theater.

Jen 28:35

Like, we know who he is. Right. But like maybe other people wouldn't.

Joe 28:39

Well, I think they remember the the guy from Super Troopers, right? There, the captain or whatever he is in Super Troopers.

Jen 28:44

I've never seen Super Troop.

Joe 28:45

Oh.

Tom 28:46

Oh, that's a that's a damn shame. That movie's terrific. Yeah, I'd say Braveheart maybe been was like one of his more that was just that was probably his but like again, if you saw Braveheart and then you saw I mean you don't see Brian Cox, you just hear him. But you know, um like he's all he's got like the the the cataract and everything like that, Braveheart. Like he doesn't really look like himself.

Jen 29:07

Okay.

Joe 29:07

He's much younger too. Um I would love to now that I'm just now I'm just picturing uh Brian Cox doing the you know the McDonald's ads, um just as Aslan. You ever he does, you know, he does McDonald's. He does McDonald's ads. Brian Cox. Yes, he does. Did not know that. Yeah, go look it up. Jen Slide. Look it up right now.

Tom 29:30

Is he is he like is Brian Cox was like the first Hannibal Lecter, too.

Joe 29:33

He was a Manhunter.

Tom 29:34

Yeah, he was like Red Dragon? No, yeah. No one manhunters which is Red Dragon, which is yeah, Red Dragon.

Joe 29:40

With uh with what's his face, William Peterson, but the origin, yeah, but the original like from the eight. Yeah, he was the original Hannibal Lecter. Yeah.

Jen 29:48

Sorry, okay. I just listened to it.

Joe 29:50

He does his but up butt. I want to see Aslan doing that now. Um I would like to have heard of you know, one thing what when I was watching this, like this is clearly just like the sound design, but Liam Neeson, whenever he speaks, his voice sounds so I don't know, it sounds like it's in another place than where the rest of the actors are. Like it doesn't to me, it doesn't seem like it's coming out of Aslan's mouth. Not because it's a lion, but because all the other characters, you know, the animals' voices sound, but Aslan specifically, Liam Neeson's voice sounds like I don't know, like it's just not it, it doesn't mesh into the movie and seems like it's coming from another place. I don't know. It's just a weird thing for me.

Tom 30:32

I didn't notice that with his voice, but you know what? I did feel that this odds, I I felt like Aslan's roars weren't like, did it resonate the right way?

Jen 30:40

Like loud and scary enough?

Tom 30:42

No, yeah, like I specifically, like you know, it's a relative, but like the book talks about like they make a big deal even before Aslan shows up about how like Aslan's great and everyone loves him, but he's scary as fuck, right? And like he's gotta have that kind of like he's a wild lion, right? Yeah, as as they kind of put it, but like when he roars, like even people who are on his side are afraid, and like his roars were very tame. And I I feel like like the sound like it's a similar kind of a thing. I felt like the sound of the roar didn't match the physicality of what they were trying to do on screen.

Jen 31:14

Yeah, I think specifically at the part after he talks to the witch and he roars and she gets scared, which is also in the book, and she like jumps into her sled and leaves, and everyone laughs at her. Like that roar, I was like, All right, it's a lie and roaring, but there's nothing like there's there's no like fear and terror behind it. It's just like he's roaring, he would roar any other time to be. I don't know, yeah. It wasn't like threatening enough.

Joe 31:36

Yeah. Maybe we needed to be in like five-one surround sound or something like that. I don't know. Um, so this movie uh had a $180 million budget. We talked already, it it the filming was done in New Zealand, largely done in New Zealand. Sorry. Interesting things like animal import laws, laws in New Zealand forbid them from importing reindeer. So they had to use animatronics and digital reindeer for the white witch's sleigh. And apparently Scandar Keensar Keynes, who plays Edmund, grew six and a half inches during production of this movie.

Jen 32:17

That's crazy.

Joe 32:18

Uh so they had to keep re-re uh rebuilding his armor because he would grow out of it. Um and we talked about the VFX, right? Uh Weta Workshop worked on this. Also ILM and rhythm and hues. So there was a lot of clearly there was a lot of CGI in this movie, right? And I think I mentioned uh Aslan's rendering about the uh the hairs. It it said each frame of Aslan's of the Aslan stuff took up to 10 hours to render. Each frame.

Jen 32:50

It's a lot of frames.

Joe 32:51

That's a lot of that's yeah, that's a lot of frames. It's a lot of hours rendering Aslan.

Tom 32:56

I mean the tent a little while longer, guys. Huh?

Joe 32:58

He looks amazing though, I will say that. I mean, you could clearly see that they spent more time on him.

Jen 33:05

I I asked Dan when we were finished, like I I thought all the animals looked pretty good with the effects. He said he thought the animals were a little cartoony. But I feel like it was the same problem with like the live-action Lion King, where like if you try to make it look too real, it's there's no emotion you can like really display on the animals' faces. So I don't think they were cartoony at all, but I maybe they went like they gave them like a little bit more emotion to the face than like a real lion or real beaver would have. Like I could see that like the Mr. Beaver had like the mustache. Like, you know, they try to like do that. What were you saying about the fox?

Tom 33:43

I think the fox was the only one. I was like, that looked like didn't look like a real animal to me.

Joe 33:48

Oh, yeah. And no, the wolves, I believe a lot I think all but two of them were real wolves. Real.

Jen 33:54

Really? Yeah, so not the one obviously not Morgrim.

unknown 33:58

Yeah.

Joe 33:59

Yes, yes. I don't know. They're the actual dogs.

Tom 34:02

They were they were they were wolf dogs. Yeah.

Joe 34:07

Uh right. I guess the Michael Madsen wasn't uh wasn't a wolf.

Jen 34:10

Oh, it was Michael Madsen?

Joe 34:12

Yeah, he was the voice of uncredited, I think.

Jen 34:16

Yeah, it was not in the credits. I was looking to see who was.

Joe 34:18

I don't know why that happened.

Tom 34:20

Okay. Something must have happened with that, but um and Rupert Everett, uh back-to-back appearances.

Joe 34:26

He's the fox, right? Yeah.

Tom 34:28

That's right.

Jen 34:28

Yeah.

Joe 34:29

Yeah.

Tom 34:30

Um He had more lines in this movie than the last one, where he was fourth built.

Joe 34:34

Yeah.

Jen 34:35

Yes.

Joe 34:36

We talked already about the opening scene that's not in the book of them, you know, the bombing of London, which I agree. I think it's a good scene to add. Um, to show you, you know, why they're going, show show why they're being sent to this estate rather than just telling them. Especially since nowadays you're like, why are they sending their children away? Like, we wouldn't do this ever.

Jen 34:59

Well, Dan Dan pointed out that it was like uh um they tried to escape the war, but then they found themselves in another war. Yeah.

Joe 35:07

I was like, I don't think well the kids weren't trying to escape the war. The mom was trying to protect them. I don't think they were.

Jen 35:16

I mean, they left one war so they wouldn't get hurt, and then they ended up fighting in a war. Yeah in another war.

Tom 35:21

I I thought there was a lot of good little character beats in there that help explain stuff later on as well. Like you know, that their father's away at war and they don't know where, like, you know, the absence of a father is clearly infecting at least the boys' lives. The fact that like Peter is like trying to act like a father would, and that Edward seems to be really like dri like like the fact that he doesn't have a connection to his father seems to be a source of a lot of his emotional issues here, you know. Then he runs back and he gets the picture and and then like when they're getting on the train, like Peter's looking at the soldiers who are going in and he's feeling like he says that there's like a like a sense of like guilt or desire to like, should that be what he's doing? Should he be getting into this fight?

Joe 36:03

He's a little young, but yes, I I noticed that too, Tom. He it definitely it definitely seemed like he was looking at the soldier, uh you know, wanting to maybe be a soldier, like when you know, I should be fighting too. Or um and I I almost think, and I know, I mean, how how old are they supposed to be in the books? That's the one thing I couldn't remember.

Jen 36:23

Did they do they don't really say they're might be like fourteen and Lucy might be like eight and the other two kind of in the middle.

Joe 36:32

So he's supposed to oh wow.

Tom 36:34

I would say like four, yeah, like I was guessing like he's he's older in the movie. Maybe yeah, well, of course.

Jen 36:39

Yeah, but Susan could be like Susan in the movie, probably looks like she's like fourteen. Yeah. I think in the book she might be a little younger. Yeah.

Joe 36:47

Okay. Yes, she definitely I I don't even remember how how old they were, but yes, they look like their eyes like he Peter looks like he's probably almost 19 or 20 in real life.

Tom 36:55

Yeah. In the movie, it looks like he could probably enlist next year, you know.

Joe 37:01

Yeah, I would have I would have guessed 16 he was supposed to be. I uh my guess was like 16, 14, maybe 13 or 12. And yeah, yeah, maybe Edmund like about 12, and then Lucy probably maybe about nine.

Jen 37:15

Yeah, I would think in the book she's like eight or eight. But in the movie she could be probably like ten.

Joe 37:20

I don't know, something like that. She looked uh a little bit younger, but um yeah, and obviously there's that dynamic with not having a father around that Peter feels like he's needs to be the father, and Edmund kind of resents him for that. Um which I because he misses his father, and he's like, You can't replace dad, basically. And I think they did a good job of setting that up.

Tom 37:40

Yeah.

Joe 37:41

And do that, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead, go ahead.

Tom 37:44

So it starts off with the with the blitz, right? With the with the the the planes dropping bombs on London, and that pays off later on in the battle, where like Edmund is in charge of of like the air forces of the battle and sends in all like the eagles and the phoenixes to like to drop to drop rocks on the enemy forces. Like he's he's learned strategy from real life and he's paying that forward. I was like, okay, that's kind of that's kind of cool.

Joe 38:10

We got eagles. They weren't they didn't talk though in this one. Well, those weren't eagles. My wife kept saying that those griffins, and I was like, well, they're gonna be like there were griffins. But they had fuzzy ears, and griffins don't have fuzzy ears.

Tom 38:23

Griffins don't have ears, do they? Their heads were like lion-eagle mixes as opposed to like most griffins I know have a eagle head and wings and lion body. This had like a lion-eagle mix head.

Joe 38:36

Yeah, they're an interesting mix there, for sure. Um I think the children, the casting of the children was done pretty well. They seem like they fit those paradigms of the the characters that they're supposed to portray. Uh, you know, Jim Broadbent as just like a kind of cameo appearance as the professor. I feel like this was like prime Jim Broadbent, like let's just get him in our movie for a small part, kind of, and then this is like early James McAvoy, right?

Tom 39:09

Yeah, relative, right?

Joe 39:10

Yeah, like what was this like one of his first big roles? I'm trying to think. Um, you know, going back.

Tom 39:18

Yeah, I think he'd been around.

Joe 39:20

Uh let's see. Oh shoot.

Tom 39:23

He was like it was he was a get. He was a get. All right.

Joe 39:25

He was in the shame, he was in the shameless TV show, the the original one over in the UK.

Tom 39:30

I was unaware of that.

Joe 39:31

Oh, I didn't know.

Jen 39:32

I was thinking that um that it wasn't that big of a part, but then they did add like another scene or two for him later on that isn't in the book.

Joe 39:43

Oh, uh connection to uh another episode. He was Leo uh Leto Atreides II in Children of Dune mini-series.

Tom 39:51

Yes. Okay. That was the uh that was the part. It's a very small part. He's only on screen for for a couple of scenes.

Joe 39:58

It says three episodes, yeah.

Tom 40:00

Yeah, but people literally people I can't remember who no, it's terrible because I can't remember who it is, but like I remember someone telling a story about watching that miniseries and seeing him like with a nothing and just going, oh, like that's the best actor, the biggest star in this entire thing is that guy. And they didn't know who he was, and then it turned out to be James McAvoy, yeah.

Joe 40:19

Yeah, he uh he was in an episode of Band of Brothers. I don't remember him.

Tom 40:23

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 40:23

Every everyone's I mean, it was so many people who were in like us and had a small part in that.

Tom 40:27

But yeah, he really hit big Last King of Scotland was like his breakout role when that came out the next year.

Joe 40:32

Yes, yeah, that was like an Oscar. Uh uh well, what's his name? I think won an A Golden Globe. Or did he win the Oscar? Forrest Whitaker. I saw that movie. That was a good movie. What's her name's in that movie too? Uh uh uh Scully. Jillian Anderson, yeah, she's in that as well. My wife thought Gillian Anderson was British because she did such a good British accent.

Tom 40:54

She speaks with a British accent now. I think she lives in England.

Joe 40:57

I I do think she lives there and maybe lived there for a while as well, like prior. So that's so you know, she just has a bit of a a bit of a there. But yes, so I think this was one of his big big breakout. I mean, he had a a run. He was on the shameless TV show, as I said, over in the UK from 04 to 05, was in this, then did Last King of Scotland. Um, and I think that's kind of when you know that he did such great things. Oh, he did Atonement, which was a big Oscar movie, and Wanted, yeah, and then Wanted, which was an awful movie, and then the X-Men movies and all that. Yeah, Mr. Tumness. Um, I liked him a lot. I was, you know, looking back on it when I watched it this time, thinking about, you know, interesting choice to make Mr. Tumness topless for the movie.

Jen 41:41

Yeah, I was I was just like, I don't know if he is or not in the book. He probably is, but I was just like, he's just sitting there this whole movie with no shirt on with this girl. Like it's just weird.

Joe 41:50

It's like Yeah.

Jen 41:51

Yeah. Like just give him a little vest or something. They wear clothes. Some of them wear clothes.

Joe 41:58

Yeah, I thought it was an interesting decision to make him topless. I don't know what yeah. For the movie, even if he was topless, yeah, because he's gone.

Jen 42:05

Yeah, he's cold, but he won't put a shirt on. His neck is cold.

Joe 42:10

Yeah. Definitely an interesting choice there. I don't know if that was for the older uh ladies or didn't do anything for me.

Jen 42:18

I mean I'm not I didn't really care for Mr. Tumness, but I'm sure there are some people out there who would.

Tom 42:23

I'm sure there are definitely some people out there who are into tumness.

Jen 42:27

Are you into tumness?

Joe 42:32

We have a drop there. Um I'm sure some fetish communities really enjoyed the tumness. The topless dumbness. Um see a grown man topless hanging out with little little kids for a good portion of the movie. Uh but whatever. Okay.

Tom 42:53

So just desperately trying to change the subject. Um as the credits are rolling in this movie, right? Which the credits don't really hit until they're at the estate. Yeah, right. So we're going through them and looking to see who's you know who's in the movie, whatever else. And then like the screenwriters, there's it was like story by or screenplay by like this person and this person and these two people. Yeah. And these two people are Marcus and McPheely, uh, Christopher Marcus and Steve McPheely, who are the most financially successful screenwriters in Hollywood history, and they've written a bunch of like they wrote all the Captain America movies and the and Avengers Endgame and I was like, what? And then as the movie went on, I was like, Oh, okay. Like it's clearly like they have uh they have like I think very strong screenwriting tells and how they like to construct a story. It is very clear that they they like they put the the final polish on this. Okay. But uh that's all.

Joe 43:48

Yeah, and Tom, I noticed I didn't I didn't know though who those screenwriters were, but I did notice that there were four credits on the screenwriting. And usually that means that this thing went through a bunch of rewrites and they I'm I'm I'm gonna assume, and I didn't look this up, I apologize for this, but I'm gonna assume that they those two came in to clean up the script because it wasn't quite where they wanted it to be.

Tom 44:10

I think that's yes, that's that they did the final they did the final version.

Joe 44:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom 44:15

At least the final credited version.

Joe 44:17

For sure. And and I always feel like when you see a lot of names on a screenplay, that's usually not a good sign necessarily, but um and I mean just like jumping into the movie, like I thought it was a pretty it was a good movie. Um, I don't think it's a great movie, it's a good movie, and I think that definitely could have used a bit of polishing, more polishing maybe on the story. I don't know, you know, what that process looked like, but I think there were definitely times where it kind of dragged and it was a little bit disjointed, or maybe not disjointed, but you know, could have done a better job kind of with the flow of the story. You know, I feel like we kind of like the pacing kind of would change from like, you know, uh, I don't know, it would like move along and then kind of slow down, and then you're like, well, why do they have this scene in here? Why are they spending so much time on this? Um, I don't know if that's just because it's such a close adaptation to the story or not.

Jen 45:13

Um I think they actually added more excitement to the traveling to get to Aslan than is in the book. Because a lot of it is like they're walking and it's really cold and they're still walking. And it's good. It's just yeah, nothing's happening really, and then they kind of hide, and then Father Christmas comes. Right. But like the whole part on like the river with the wolves, like that's not in the book. But I thought that was a good scene.

Tom 45:37

Yeah. Oh, yes. I did too. Yeah. Yeah. They uh it's not a bad thing when you're making a movie to make changes like this, but I agree with you. And they took out some of the slower parts. Yeah. And they added in more action, which in general, like that helps to propel this is a long movie, you know. Yeah, really. Uh it doesn't have to be two and a half hours, but it is. Um But where I felt like that which stopped it, I think, from being a like a a great movie, is those slow parts I think really help the magic of the story. And I feel like even though they travel through a wardrobe into a magical land and they like they fight a witch and there's you know whatever like the sense of magic in the real world to transition, that kind of stuff, is not there as much as it could be. Um I think I must have known something about the end, about the fact that like they become four kings and queens or whatever. Yes. And even in the story, in the in in the book, it's very abrupt. They just go. They just like, oh we won, okay, now you're kings, and now you're gonna be old, and like the last chapter is they're adults, and like the movie is just like, now they're grown-ups, figure it out, guys. Um but like that that sense of like that they've lived a lifetime here or whatever, like is is is is is lost.

Joe 46:46

Yeah, I was wondering about that too at the end because there's sequels to this and they're kids again in the sequels, right? So then are they telling the stories in between the you know when they become kings and before they go back into the go back into the real world?

Jen 47:06

Do they just go back again after the end?

Joe 47:08

But then wouldn't they be old again then?

Jen 47:10

Like when they go back into how that works.

Joe 47:13

I guess we'll find out before we do the second one. I haven't read it anyway.

Jen 47:16

I didn't even know they were in those other movies.

Tom 47:18

Yeah. Now, my understanding, I just remember this like when I think that the Voyage to the Dawn Treader is the third one, the third movie that they make. Like, my understanding is that the kids in the books do not all go back to Nornia all the time. Like, as the kids get older, you kind of have to be a kid to get back to Nornia kind of a vibe. Yeah. But they all the kids go back for all the movies.

Jen 47:39

Okay.

Tom 47:39

Right? So I think make some changes for that. I don't know, Joe, whether it's like a quantum leap thing and they're going back in time to their own younger selves, or whether like they aged and now they're going back again and they're just young again. I don't know what the what that is.

Joe 47:53

Yeah.

Tom 47:54

But that's for another film.

Joe 47:56

You know, I I want to hear tell me more about the Santa Claus scene in the book because is it like as out of left field as it is in the and and he just gives them these gifts, just like they they changed my the the sexist line that I quoted in uh in our Discord a couple of days ago when I was reading when Father Crispus says battles are ugly affairs when women fight.

Jen 48:18

And then they changed in the movie to um battles are ugly affairs and leave it at that, which he says to Lucy, which is kind of like, I hope you don't have to fight because you're a little girl, not because you're a woman, just because you're a child. And then he gives Susan the the bow and arrow, and she's like, What happened to battles or ugly affairs? And he just like laughs. So I was like, Okay, like, uh-huh, yeah. Whatever, you still have to fight. So I I kind of like that change.

Tom 48:47

Yeah, like the the the bow and arrow thing for Susan, like she gets the bow and arrow, and and and I think she's told in the book, like, it'll never miss, but you shouldn't have to fire it anytime soon or anything. And she doesn't fire it in the book. Right.

Jen 48:59

I don't remember if she does. She does it.

Tom 49:00

Like I assume that's a payoff for a future story almost. Oh okay. Because she doesn't need to use it. Yeah, it is it's the same thing. Like they're they're trying to meet up with Aslan, they hear the bells of the sleigh, they think it's the witch, and they hide, and then it's Father Christmas. Yeah, yeah. And like they they pay they they mention it once in the movie, but it's like mentioned a few times just to kind of like it's always winter, but it's never Christmas.

Jen 49:25

Like yeah, so that's why it doesn't really come out of left field because it's like now it's Christmas. So her it's showing you that her power is waning. Right. Because it's Christmas now, finally, again. It hasn't been Christmas. That's part of him coming back.

unknown 49:39

Yeah.

Tom 49:39

Oh, I didn't understand that. They hit it a few more times in the book. Like she keeps it winter, but like December 22nd or whatever. It's never Christmas. Like it's never Christmas. Uh-huh. Like he's a he like her power wanes when they show up and Aslan comes back. Yeah. And so now Christmas can come, and then it rapid like it's less. Like here, it's like it's spring and winter at the same time, like the flowers are blossoming. Like it here, it's just like in the book, it's just rapidly changes to spring. So like the the everything it's it's similar to the book, but to the movie, but it's a little bit less they use like it's a little yeah, it's more just like time speeds up in the the environment.

Joe 50:20

Yeah, like it's like.

Jen 50:21

Yeah, it's like they're walking and then the sled doesn't work anymore. Like Edmund's walking with the witch and the sled doesn't work, they have to like leave it because there's no snow.

Joe 50:30

Yeah.

Jen 50:30

And then they all have to walk. That whole part kind of was cut out, I think.

Joe 50:33

Yeah, I think that that makes sense because we're saying that the winter, the prolonged winter, is a magical spell. So the spell's worn off and like it's gonna quickly change to spring. Whereas in the you're right, in this, the movie, it's kind of slowly. I wouldn't even say slowly. I mean, how long are we talking about a period of time? Again, going back to the book, like from when they all go into the wardrobe till they defeat the the witch.

Tom 50:57

I don't know, it's a couple of days. It's a little while, but it's not too too long. I think days? Days, maybe a couple of years.

Joe 51:04

Yeah, a week, maybe so. It does become spring pretty quick, then within a matter of yeah. It does.

Tom 51:08

I I would just say, like, there's a scene, there's a particular scene I'm thinking about in the movie that I thought was just like an odd thing where it's like the snow is still on the trees, but the like the flowers are blossoming underneath the ice. And it's almost like the visual impression I got from that is that it is spring, but the snow is like the spell is covering spring up, like hiding you from seeing spring. Whereas it's not necessarily that it's like she's frozen time in winter. And like the weather in the book, the weather, it's winter, but the weather changes. It's sometimes it's snowing, sometimes it's just freezing cold. Like it's not, it's not like uh it's it's static, it's just static in the fact that it's always winter.

Joe 51:48

Yeah. Um and they use that, I mean, they use uh the white witch, uh, you know, Tilda Swinton's costuming to kind of show the the the defrosting of of uh Narnia because her costume kind of starts changing. It's almost like melting every time you see her. It's kind of until at the end where she looks like I don't know, like Tarzan or something. The way the way she's gonna be.

Tom 52:11

She's got his mane made into a cloak.

Joe 52:14

Yes, that's also oh, is that what that is?

Tom 52:16

Yeah, that's supposed to be like that's his that's the mane that she shaves they shave off.

Joe 52:20

That's a that was a rough scene, the shaving of Aslan.

Tom 52:25

Yeah.

Joe 52:25

Poor Aslan.

Tom 52:26

That is it, it is really graphic, and it is like very Jesus-y because like in the book, all the monsters and creatures that that ally themselves with with the witch, they're like they're like whipping him and they're savaging him, but it is like you know, Jesus carrying the cross and like you know, the stations and stuff, and then they tie him down and shave him, and then I'm like so they they took out the whipping and and and that part, but the shaving is still it's really you know it was it was it was it was tough to watch for for for for me with the kids.

Joe 52:54

Yeah, and I I think that might be part of the you know, when we talked a little bit earlier about when the book came out, you know, people think it's a little bit too graphic or adult for the children, and I guess scenes like that, like whipping and shaving.

Tom 53:09

Yeah, and I I the argument would be these children go to church on Sunday. Yeah, yeah.

Jen 53:15

Smoking Jesus on the cross every week, or every day in school. He's hanging up there. He's hanging up there, there's nails, yeah. Right?

Joe 53:23

It's definitely a very Catholic uh vibe there. Um you know, with the uh, you know, just in the story itself and in in this in the movie, right? There's there's just a lot of like I don't want to say violence is okay. Here, kids, take these weapons to kill things. Right, right. Um oh yeah, by the way, you're not you're just gonna we're just gonna throw you into combat, your kids with with no training or anything like that. Sorry, you're gonna have to fight all these people.

Jen 53:52

He had more training in the movie than they did in the book. I don't really remember them having much training.

Tom 53:56

Yeah. But in the book, like Peter Aslan's talking to him about strategy, not about fighting. He's like, Peter, like there's one point where like the armies are moving, and Aslan, like, and I mean Peter asks Aslan, like, shouldn't we camp on the other side of the river? So whatever. And Aslan's like, no, this is okay, but that's good thinking because you're gonna have to lead these people, right? Yeah, not like get on the front lines to kill stuff. But it is all it's the same thing that happens where it's like Peter kills a the wolf, and like that's a great thing. And like Aslan like dice him for it.

Jen 54:29

Yeah.

Tom 54:30

There's no uh there's no moral quandary about killing evil, I guess.

Joe 54:34

Peter and the wolf? Yeah, yeah, Peter and the wolf there. I have a question, and this is like jumping way into later, right? There's when when Edmund comes back and there's that scene with Aslan off to the side talking with him, do we ever learn what their conversation was about? No.

Tom 54:54

No, but I'm pretty sure it's Aslan telling him, like, hey, look, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this for you. You can't tell me.

Jen 54:59

No, I don't think so. I th I do. I don't think Edmund No, because then they say, Do should we tell Edmund what he did for him? And they're like, No, don't tell him.

Tom 55:07

Yeah, but I I don't I don't know what else Aslan will be talking to him about.

Jen 55:10

Yeah, but that's like the witch didn't even come yet.

Tom 55:13

Aslan knows already. Before that, before Peter comes before Edmund comes back, he's talking to Peter about what his destiny is. Aslan knows as soon as he comes back, he's gonna die. I don't think he's telling him Edmund.

Joe 55:24

That's horrible if he does tell Edmund that, because by the way, kid, because you're an asshole, I'm gonna be able to do that.

Tom 55:29

Not necessarily no, I don't think he's gonna tell him that I'm gonna die for you, but I think he's gonna tell him I think he's telling him like I think he's absolving him of his sins and letting him know. Yeah, that's the confession. He's in confession. Yeah, he's in confession.

Joe 55:40

I agree because right when right once that happens, and again, I don't know if it's exactly in the book, right? When it comes back, he's like, it's done. Like, we're not gonna talk about what he did anymore. Like he's that yeah, to me, that was like a confession. Like he absolved him of his sins, he understands what he did was wrong, and he wants to change his ways, and we're gonna move on from that. And I thought it was just yeah, I thought it was a conversation like that, but yeah, I was just curious if there was more detail about it in the book.

Tom 56:08

No, there's one thing that they say after that in the book that I really like, that they don't go, it's just not a thing in the movie, whatever. And it's not a thing in the book until really like they may have mentioned it once, but it was really until then, where they're like, after that conversation, because it's it's uh the scene's from I think it's from Lucy's point of view or it's from uh Susan's point of view, or whatever. But like they think how Edmunds himself again, not just for the first time since they come to Narnia, but for the first time since he's been sent away to boarding school. And like apparently, like whatever he did, like wherever like he got sent away and like he came back twisted. And like this is the first time that he's been like comfortable with himself since uh is there an implication that something happened in boarding school? Yeah, I I think that they're like I think I mean they say in the beginning, right? Um, like when the professor's talking to the kids about oh, is Edmund known to be trustworthy? Yeah, you know, and they're like, No, no, no, no, it's actually the opposite. Like, yeah, so I think there's always a sense that Edmund's a little bit of like a bad kid.

Jen 57:07

Yeah.

Tom 57:08

And like apparently he got sent away when the other ones didn't because like they couldn't they couldn't figure out a way to handle him at home.

Joe 57:14

Ah, now it's like he came back even worse.

Tom 57:19

Probably.

Joe 57:20

Maybe also needed was some medicine. Uh yeah, I feel like in this they're making it more like yes, the medicine he needed, Joe, was Jesus.

Jen 57:29

As Lan, yes. Right, you're right. That's what he needed. Yes.

Joe 57:35

Hey, they're right. That is almost like, right? He's like a born-again at this point. He came back. Maybe just not so visually displayed, but um there's not such a drastic change in Edmund. You you could tell he feels guilty for what he did and he understands what he did was wrong, and but I wouldn't say I wouldn't make it that fanatical that he's a born-again, but basically what they're saying is well, it's not really like like being rude and lying about stuff after this.

Jen 58:04

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 58:07

I also felt like they were they were being really hard on him. Like he would try to make a joke and they'd be like, Edmunds, you're so fucking mean. Like, let it go. And it's like, he's just cracking a joke. Like, leave the kid alone. I I also thought like I was sympathetic to him because I thought they were being really hard on him. Um, like, not understanding like this is how he's dealing with this whole situation. Obviously, you mentioned there's clearly like some history where this isn't like I got the impression from this, like it's the war and the lack of his father being there is kind of what's turned Edmund or or troubling Edmund, and that's why he's acting this way, acting out. Yeah, but I guess they're and you're saying this also in the book, that it seems like no, no, this is just how Edmund's always been.

Tom 58:51

Well, no, I think I think he's gotten worse of late in the book, and like this has gotten him back to like the Edmund that they they knew when he was younger, almost. Um but they are hard on him. They are like Peter didn't tell anybody else to shut up, right? You know, like he gets yelled at a lot for being like a jerk.

Jen 59:08

I don't think anybody else needed to shut up.

Tom 59:10

That's also true.

Joe 59:12

I I also think he's not always being a jerk, he's trying to cope with the situation. Yes, that's that's what it is, and this is the way he copes with it. I mean, sometimes he is, he's like being a total jerk when he's lying about loose about going into the wardrobe uh or that whole part. But like I forget, he makes like a couple of comments and Peter like yells at him, and I'm like, whoa, Peter, calm down here. Like he's just saying something here. So I did feel like he was being targeted a bit, but I guess you're supposed to feel a little bit of sympathy for him.

Tom 59:41

Yeah, I think if you if you didn't if you just thought he was bad, then you wouldn't like want him to be good. Like you have to feel like a little bit Yeah. Right.

Joe 59:49

And Peter does like realize too that he's being taught really hard on him.

Jen 59:54

I think um in the book, when he first meets the witch, there's some kind of like magic going on where it's like once he eats the Turkish delight, all he wants is like more and he'll do anything to get more. I don't know if that do you think that came across in the movie very much? Yeah, okay.

Tom 1:00:11

No, I remember.

Jen 1:00:12

So I think he it kind of like gives him a little more reason for why he does what he did. Like he literally just goes to the witch and like portrays them and whatever. But like that's there's a there's a little bit of like an enchantment on him to cause him to do that.

Joe 1:00:25

They didn't do that. I remember when in the Turkish Delight scene, I was like, oh, I remember this being a chapter title in the right in the book chapter title Turkish Delight. Yeah, I remember that, and I do remember like he we he becomes like almost insatiable with for like he just wants to constantly and that's kind of how she keeps him on a leash. Yeah, is with Turkish light. Yeah, and here they're just like, no, no, Edmund's just weak.

Jen 1:00:47

Yeah, she's just like come for and it's also like what we're saying about the dad. It's also like, come, I'll take care of you, come to my, you know, I don't have any kids, so you could be the prince, come to my castle, I'll give you all the Turkish delight you want. All you have to do is bring them with you. So it's like, you know, it's like a spell on him.

Tom 1:01:05

Yeah. Edmund's also like in the book, yeah, he's like addicted or he's magically enchanted or whatever, but like he's also far more of an active jerk. Yes. Like he literally, like, he waits to hear exactly what the plan for Aslan is in the Beavers house, and then he goes and he tells the witch everything right away. And he's trying to convince himself the whole time, like, oh, they're wrong. The witch is really good, Aslan's bad. And like there's a whole scene, like when they when the beavers first mention Aslan, it like goes to like how everybody reacts to it, and like nobody knows what Aslan is, but like all the other kids are like feel comforted and fear this sense of like, and he's like, This doesn't sound good, I don't like it. Like because he's got that uh that dark side to him. Whereas in the movie, like he goes to the witch, but he doesn't tell her about Aslan, and he doesn't tell him like he like holds that stuff back and he only reveals that information to try and save Mr. Tumnus.

Jen 1:02:02

I think he tells her about the stone table at that point. I think he tells her about Aslan, but not right away.

Joe 1:02:07

Yeah, like it's like slowly revealed in a couple of situations where somebody's gonna I think one with the fox, too, right? Does does he remember? Maybe that's when he felt about it.

Jen 1:02:19

And then the fox is like very disappointed in him.

Joe 1:02:21

Yes.

Jen 1:02:21

Yeah, that's what he felt about.

Joe 1:02:24

The fox is like, I'm prepared to die for this. You don't you shouldn't have said it. There, but there's like there's like two or three points where he he comes clean and reveals information to the white witch to try to protect somebody.

Tom 1:02:36

So like you can they make him they make him less of like a complete water.

Joe 1:02:42

Uh speaking of Turkish Delight, uh the the actor uh Skander Keynes, who had a who played Edmund, had to eat gallons of Turkish Delight while making this movie. Oh wow, and because you know he be he he was just I guess in uh perpetual sugar rushes, they had to create like a sugar-free, unflavored version of the Turkish Delight for him to eat, uh, which Keynes mentioned was disgusting.

Jen 1:03:07

Turkish Delight looks disgusting.

Joe 1:03:10

It it's actually supposed to be really good. Oh, really? I feel like I I think I have had it.

Jen 1:03:16

It's like a gelatin dusted in sugar. I don't know. Just doesn't look like a thing I'd want to eat on an entire bowl of.

Joe 1:03:23

Probably not now, but maybe when you were like 11 or 12.

Jen 1:03:27

Maybe.

Joe 1:03:27

Yeah, and by kudos to you know, the actors who play the kids. I thought they all did really good jobs, and I'm sure I'm sure that was tough, right? Directing four children, um, and a lot of not there, right?

Jen 1:03:42

Right, four kids interacting with nothing. Right.

Joe 1:03:44

Yeah, basically in them interacting with nothing, you know. Obviously, they could have the uh actors or people off camera, you know, doing the lines with them or whatnot. But yeah, there's a lot of interaction with nothing, right? Or stand-ins, maybe for the some of the animals. I'm assuming that might they might have been stand-ins. But aside from, you know, James Tumnes, Matt James McAvoy, and Tilda Switon, who apparently tried to stay away from the kids as much as possible during when they weren't actually filming to try to keep that icy cold presence of hers. Uh, by the way, Tilda, I don't think you need to do that. You just have an icy cold presence about you. Uh but yeah, she wanted to she wanted the kids to feel uncomfortable around her.

Tom 1:04:27

Look, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Joe 1:04:28

Maybe that was maybe that was for their benefit to help them act better. I don't know. That's a good, you know, that that could have been just her being like, well, this isn't for me, this is for them. So they can literally feel uncomfortable and scared when I'm around them.

Tom 1:04:44

There were um, there's a scene, I guess it's about halfway through uh the movie, but like Till Sweden hits the kid, like hits Edmund, like Edmund. And I was like, Oh, I didn't think that like the Disney was gonna allow like adults to actually beat children in this movie.

Joe 1:04:59

Yeah.

Tom 1:05:00

And then later on, she just tries to murder two of them in a sword fight. So I was I was very wrong about that, but still.

Joe 1:05:07

Yeah. For the most part, she turns people into ice statues or stone statues, whatever. Yeah, there looks they're supposed to be ice, but they look great. Oh, they're not stone, yeah. Um I guess this was a bit violent, but not overly violent. Like, I don't know, is it just the right amount of violence for your kids?

Jen 1:05:26

There's a lot of violence for Aslan, but I don't think you see any blood when he gets stabbed.

Tom 1:05:31

Not when he gets stabbed. The only you don't see any blood, I don't think you really see any blood at all. Some people get bruised up, yeah, right?

Joe 1:05:38

And they either get knocked out or turned to stone for the most part.

Tom 1:05:41

Yeah, even when when Peter kills uh the wolf and and asks like clean your blade. It's not like his blade is bloody. Well, you don't see it. He runs a wolf through, you know? Yeah. That's true, yeah. It's like clean your blade, and the next scene is him like getting knighted.

Joe 1:05:55

Yeah, yeah. I I'm glad you mentioned the bow, I think, Tom, where you said they actually don't use it. In the story, because we were just talking during the movie and it brought back a memory when I first saw this movie. Like, is she ever gonna use that fucking bow? Like, she better use that damn bow.

Tom 1:06:10

Yeah.

Joe 1:06:10

And she does at the very end.

Jen 1:06:12

Yeah.

Joe 1:06:13

There you go. So happy about that. Um, the only other note I have is that Frozen Tumness looks like he was belting out a chorus of My Heart Will Go On. It did not look like he was in pain, it looked like he was in the middle of a very dramatic musical performance. He was kind of like this. Um that's that was my two.

Tom 1:06:36

True enough. It's a good point.

Joe 1:06:39

Um we I think we talked about all the changes already. There's not that many, like you said, there's not that many changes in this.

Tom 1:06:46

No.

Joe 1:06:47

So, and you know, those were obviously done to kind of fill in some of the gaps to give it a little more action, up the emotional stakes. While C.S. Lewis obviously was not alive around the time of this movie. He died in 1963. Just in general, he was very skeptical of film. Um, in a 1959 letter, he wrote that anthropomorphic animals always turn into buffoonery or nightmare on screen. Um, he was specifically critical of Walt Disney's animation, uh characterizing it as vulgar. So ironic that uh this became a Disney movie. Um but but the but the thing was, right? So so we talked about uh Douglas Gresham, who was his stepson. They actually had to to get the rights to this movie, to make this movie, they actually created like a sizzle reel type deal to show it to Gresham. Um, and he was actually amazed at the you know the what they were able to do, and that kind of was what gave it his, you know, made him give it his blessing to do this, was that they had to kind of almost pitch it to him and show him like, no, no, the animals aren't gonna look stupid.

Tom 1:07:59

Yeah.

Joe 1:08:00

We've made so many uh advances in CGI, this is what they're gonna look like. And he was he was like, Okay, cool, let's do it.

Jen 1:08:07

Yeah, they can't. I mean, there's no way in the 1960s that you could predict like what movies were gonna look like and how far they were gonna come.

Joe 1:08:16

Nah, he's yeah, and I mean he he thought like his uh stepdad would uh would actually have been quite amazed and impressed by what they were able to do. So I don't know if he was saying that or it was the money talking, but both. Both, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Uh costumes in this movie. You know who you y'all saw who the costume designer was? No. Isis Mundesen.

Tom 1:08:41

Oh sorry, Musenden.

Joe 1:08:44

First first season of Wheel of Time. I saw the name pop up and I was like, oh, yes, she did costumes for this. The Aslan, CGI, 5.2 million individual hairs, each simulated to react naturally to wind and light. That's that 10 10 hours of rendering rendering. What else we got here? Uh we talked about Tolkien. So apparently C.S. Lewis and Tolkien went to see uh Snow White together and they hated it.

Jen 1:09:13

Right.

Joe 1:09:14

Yeah. See, I'm just picturing I'm picturing C.S. Lewis calling up J.R. Tolkien and saying, hey, you want to go see Snow White with me?

Jen 1:09:26

This was terrible.

Joe 1:09:28

JR, would you care to go see uh Snow White with me?

Jen 1:09:31

Did he have to have to be called JRR? What was his real name? I don't know. Let's look it up.

Tom 1:09:37

Um yeah, I I can imag from what I know of J.R. Tolkien, I can imagine him being upset because the voices in Snow White weren't German. Like he seems to be that level of Ronald. They called him Ronald of uh Finnicky. Yeah. Uh so you mentioned something before, Joe, in regards to uh Ebon's born-again-ness, and it not exactly the same way, but C.S. Lewis did rediscover his Christianity as an adult. Yeah. And that was a big driver into making this. We didn't really talk about that when we were talking about the the prior to making it, but like part of his desire, I think, subconscious or not, to add uh like Christianity into this story was that like as someone who may now be described as born again, that really wasn't like a term that was used at the time. Um and he wasn't, I think he was I think he rediscovered Catholicism, which really I guess born-again Christianity is more evangelical. But um he was super passionate about Jesus and about the message of God and about um about trying to get that out there. So I think it was a once once it snuck in, he really pushed hard to do that. And while Tolkien was more obsessed with having I think a logical myth building thing and why he maybe didn't like the fact that he was mixing mythologies or whatever, C. S. Lewis put a lot of his thought into like if Narnia were a place, what would the son of God be like there? And that's that's the work that he put into this, like the theological work behind like God is universal, Jesus must be universal. What would the son of God be like in a land where everyone's magical creatures and there are no people? Yeah.

Jen 1:11:16

I think they do mention in the book too that he's like there's like an emperor, and he's the emperor's son. Yeah, the emperor. Which I never really thought of before this, but I guess the emperor is like God. Yeah.

Joe 1:11:28

And he's the son of oh, beyond the sea. So when this movie came out, too, they marketed it, you know, as like a Christian kind of outreach movie, um, similar to like the Passion of the Christ. So they definitely leaned into that when they were doing the marketing.

Tom 1:11:46

Um, let's take the Passion of the Christ and the Lord of the Wings.

Jen 1:11:53

Mix them together, baby. I mean, that's sweet, sweet cat. Did anyone get struck by lightning during the filming of this movie?

Joe 1:12:01

I don't I don't think so. They did lean on the Christian aspect of it in the marketing sense. They, you know, there was religious leaders in churches and schools like doing block viewings of this or like booking theaters to go take their congregations to go see this. Things like that happened.

Tom 1:12:16

Amazing.

Joe 1:12:17

And then, you know, obviously the general audience was just like this is a cool fantasy spectacle, like like Lord of the Rings, which just finished. Um, you know, the the movie was successful. It grossed uh $740 million, $45 million at the box office.

Tom 1:12:33

Um huge on DVD, too.

Joe 1:12:35

Did it really?

Tom 1:12:37

Another $150 million on DVD sales.

Joe 1:12:39

Yeah.

Jen 1:12:40

Tom, do you remember when we were in Disney World when this movie was coming out and we went into the that building at Hollywood Studios and it was like all decorated, and then the witch, somebody came out like above us, it was the witch. Oh my gosh. They just had like a room, like a marketing, it wasn't a ride, it was just like an experience. And you went in and everything was like decorated in winter, and then like the witch came out and said something to you. And I vaguely remembered it. Dan brought it up, but yeah, it was in 2005 in Disney World. Yeah, yeah.

Joe 1:13:10

Um, it did win some awards uh for makeup. It won the Oscar for makeup.

Tom 1:13:16

I was just gonna guess, I did not know. I was gonna guess that. Like you can see if you're watching us on YouTube, you can see uh part of Tilda Swinton uh in the background of of uh our show here. And the makeup is really good.

Joe 1:13:29

That wig is that wig is quite quite a big I I imagine that thing is heavy.

Tom 1:13:35

Yeah, she she actually had a brace to hold up the wig uh when in between takes they would put on her because it was so it was so hot.

Joe 1:13:42

Yeah, it had two other nominations, one for uh sound mixing and one for visual effects, but did not win.

Jen 1:13:48

So I guess the uh the Aslan voice didn't bother people who are voting vote on Oscar voting.

Tom 1:13:54

I guess not. Well, it didn't win, Jeff. You're right, you're right.

Jen 1:13:57

It was only like one of the top five best sound mixes of the year, but they were like Aslan's, yeah.

Joe 1:14:02

Nim Neeson's voice just sounds strange here. Uh it sound you could tell they added like they cranked up the bass on his voice. It just sounded a lot more deeper and booming than um well, they were trying to change what they had, so maybe they were just like fiddling with it too much.

Jen 1:14:18

Yeah since it was like a re-record. I don't know.

Joe 1:14:23

Yeah. It won oh won a BMI Film and TV award uh for music, film music. What did you what did you all think about the music in this? I thought it was a bit it it went like it went from traditional kind of like fantasy to like these weird vocal kind of uh new age like you know, some of those songs with the woman who right in New Agey.

Tom 1:14:47

It was I think very, very Lord of the Rings inspired in that regard, right? They Lord of the Rings had just got like Enya had not been nominated for one of the best songs. Then Annie Lennox, I think, won it, right? But it is, it was a it was I felt like they were trying to go for that a little bit of that vibe. I like the music.

Jen 1:15:04

Yeah, I thought it was good.

Tom 1:15:06

The only movie that we've done so far that I didn't like the music for was I think Stardust.

Joe 1:15:10

Oh, yeah. Uh so this is Harry Gregson Williams. Um, he's actually does he's the composer for what the movie we're gonna do next week. So just by the way. Um he did Man on Fire, Gladiator 2, Shrek was another big one that he did. He's he's done a lot of he's a pretty uh prolific composer. Yeah, I just thought it was interesting, those that mixture in of those kind of more modern y new age kind of songs in with the fantasy uh the fantasy.

Tom 1:15:40

So um for a movie that is so strongly and overtly uh pro-religion, you're gonna get a certain portion of the fan base who just is not gonna like that for whatever reason. Uh so I I think those are good scores. And I mean, again, they had two sequels.

Joe 1:15:56

Yeah, never saw them. I mean, I like I said, I thought the movie was good. It wasn't really anything that I was like, oh, I gotta go see these sequels type of scenario. But I mean, I guess people did because they made three of them. Um, and when we get to those movies, we'll talk about how those did. Um, anything anyone else have in their notes before we go and give it our ratings?

Jen 1:16:16

Um, I said two other things we didn't mention. I like how the witch had to go home and change into her black dress before she could kill Aslan. Unless you could do it with magic, I guess. You said like her her uh she was morphing into different looks, but I like she chose black for that. Also, I liked how the cheetahs ran in front of everyone when the army was charging. I thought that was a cool touch.

Joe 1:16:37

I made I made a comment that the cheetahs should have been way out in front, but they must be holding back so they didn't get too far ahead.

Jen 1:16:44

Yeah, they were they were like they pulled forward and then they just like paced with everybody at that point.

Joe 1:16:49

Yes. They were like, Yeah, we can easily out.

Jen 1:16:51

I like that.

Joe 1:16:52

We can easily outrun, but we're not gonna because we don't want to be too far ahead.

Jen 1:16:55

So not about us. Right, right.

Joe 1:16:58

Not about us.

Tom 1:17:00

Sorry, selfish cheetahs, really.

Joe 1:17:03

I mean, the CGI was really good. I think there was only one area. I think it was that one scene at the river where it looked like you can kind of tell there was like it were there in front of a green screen where I thought they didn't, but but otherwise, I thought the CGI was done really well. I mean, there's a lot of voices in this too that we didn't even talk about. You know, we mentioned Michael Madsen, but is it Ray Winstone does the beavers who was also like a hot commodity at one point for voice work and just in movies a lot. Um with a recognizable voice there. You talked about Rupert Everett, and I think the the female beaver, the white the beavers, uh Miss Beaver, or did they have I don't remember. Did they have Mrs.

Jen 1:17:40

Beaver? Yeah, Mrs. Beaver. Ms.

Joe 1:17:41

Beaver is what uh was in Harry Potter. She was one of the paintings. I think she's the singing painting.

Jen 1:17:48

Oh, okay. Mrs. Beaver, yeah.

Joe 1:17:51

Yeah. Uh yeah. Okay. All right. She beaver. She beaver? Is that what she's listed as?

Jen 1:17:57

In the book. I guess. No, in the book, I think she's maybe she's she. Oh, I think Aslan calls her she beaver at one point.

Joe 1:18:03

Yeah. Okay. All right. Uh anyone want to go first with their ratings on this? I'll go first.

Jen 1:18:12

I like this movie a lot, and I um gonna give it a 3.75. Oh I enjoyed it. I thought, yeah, I thought the I thought the music was good. The CGI was good, it's a good story. It's just a good, good movie. I enjoyed it a lot.

Tom 1:18:29

Tom. Um I like this movie. I thought I I also thought it was good. I I would uh I would see if my older son would want to watch it with me too. So I it's a rewatchable movie, which is a plus. I I I don't know if I can I'm gonna go 3-5, um, which I think equates to a 3-7-5 for Jen in just my partial rating scale. But uh yeah, no, I I think that this was a good movie. And more than that, I would recommend if you haven't read the book, if you were you felt like it wasn't for you, this is a good book, it's just a good story. So I would recommend people read the story as well.

Joe 1:18:59

Yeah, I I give this a 3-5 as well. Um, I did enjoy it. It's a little it drags a little bit in the first half, and it's it doesn't flow as well, but when we get to the second half, it kind of picks up, and I feel like the editing and the flow of the story is much better in the second half. Um, the kids' performances are really great.

Tom 1:19:18

Yeah.

Joe 1:19:19

Uh Tilda was rightfully cold and um scary. Uh yeah. So I'll give it a 3.5 as well. Definitely I I hadn't seen it, I don't think, since I saw it in the movie theater, but I and I was kind of like, uh, I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm that excited to see this, but I did enjoy it when I rewatched it. So all right, successful adaptation, Jen and Tom.

Jen 1:19:40

Yeah, I think so. Um it's pretty much right the exact book, except for like a couple extra things they added, which didn't change anything. There was wasn't anything like jarring that they that they decided to cut or change. Um I think it was pretty on point. So I definitely successful.

Joe 1:19:57

Is this the closest adaptation that we've done so far to what I mean the ones that you've read?

Jen 1:20:02

Probably. Yeah, maybe I can't really think of everything we've done, even though we've probably only done like six things, but I mean, it's they yeah, like usually I feel like there'll be like a big change where you're like, why? Why did they do that? You know, and this was there was really none of that in this. It was pretty much the exact story.

Joe 1:20:18

I mean, two of the biggest changes was the beginning intro, which is it totally makes sense. Like to lay it.

Jen 1:20:23

It's not a change, it's just like an expansion.

Joe 1:20:26

Yeah, and you mentioned uh the river scene, which I think was just added for uh additional action. The the other thing I I gave it a three-five. The other thing I wanted to add is it's a it it could have been shorter. I think they didn't need to make it. Yeah, probably they could have knocked about 10 minutes off of this, I think comfortably. Yes, yeah, and topless tumness. Uh just put a put a little vest on him.

Jen 1:20:46

Give him a little shirt.

Tom 1:20:49

A little bit more fur. Something. Give me something.

Joe 1:20:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Cover up the nipples. Uh let's wrap it up here. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. Uh, you can join us over in Discord to continue the conversation there. We also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe. Written reviews, wherever you listen to podcasts, and check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Tom, any final words before we wrap?

Tom 1:21:19

Um, I will say this. The Met season is going so bad, I actually cared about the Jets draft.

Joe 1:21:25

All right. Jen, take us out.

Jen 1:21:28

Do not cite the deep magic to me, which I was there when it was written.

Joe 1:21:33

That is that's better. Is that the same? Is that directly from the book that line?

Jen 1:21:37

I think if it's not, it's close. Yeah.

Joe 1:21:40

All right, go as then. Go go leave me to. Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.