Joe 0:00

Robert Heinlein's 1959 novel was a 22-day white heat of indignation over nuclear test bands that somehow got turned into a 1997 blood-spattered satirical soap opera where the director didn't even finish reading the book. It's like taking a stern lecture on civic duty and turning it into a Kendall meat grinder where everyone is suspiciously pretty and the bugs have most of the personality.

Jen 0:50

This movie?

Joe 0:50

Yeah. Oh yeah, this movie.

Jen 0:51

Okay. Oh, yeah.

Joe 0:53

Also, how many people are in this movie?

Jen 0:55

Yes. I just yell out names in my notes.

Joe 0:57

Like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Like I remember a lot of the people who were. I remember there's a lot of people, and I remember a bunch of them, but there's other people who I who like I guess weren't that that famous.

Tom 1:08

Right.

Joe 1:08

Um back then when it came out, or when I last saw this, maybe in the early, I probably haven't seen this movie in like 15 years.

Jen 1:14

All right, let's start.

Joe 1:16

All right, this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big and or small screen. I'm Joe Perry.

Tom 1:24

I'm Jenny's Groves. And I'm Tom Cocosa.

Joe 1:27

And today we are delving into Robert A. Heinlein's Hugo Award-winning Starship Troopers. I did not know this book won the Hugo Award, and I have a little I have thoughts about that. And Paul Verhoven's cult classic adaptation. Let's do, I guess, what we normally do, right? So first introduction to Starship Troopers, Tom.

Tom 1:50

Um my introduction was was the movie. I I I don't know if I was aware of this story. Uh I had read Highland, some Highland work before, but not this one. So um Yeah, I I I when the movie came out, I I that's when I first became aware of the story. I saw the movie in the theater.

Joe 2:07

Now you haven't read the book, right? I have not. Okay. Chen, how about you? What's your first introduction to Starship Troopers?

Jen 2:15

Um, I saw the movie. I don't think I saw it in the theater, but I I don't know, I must have watched it on TV or something. Just didn't really love it at the time. Thought it was. I mean, I don't know if I really got what they were going for when I first watched it.

Joe 2:28

I don't think a lot of people did.

Jen 2:30

I don't think I liked it that much more now, but I gave it another shot. I have not read the book. Um, but yeah, so the movie.

Joe 2:38

So I didn't know this. Yeah, same thing, movie here. I didn't know this was a book. Um, but when I found out it was, I was like, I was like, oh, I gotta read this book because I would thought it might be a lot like the movie, but it wasn't. So spoiler alert, this movie's very different, and I don't want to say the story is basically the same. There's a lot of the same characters, um, but it's like the Hobbit adaptations, which we just covered, very totally different book from movie. Extremely. And I don't think Robert Heinlein would have appreciated this adaptation. Let's just say that. So I'm gonna start it, start it off with that. All right, so I mentioned this book won the Hugo Award in 1960, and I I read the book, right? And it was okay. I wasn't really like it wasn't an exciting book. Um, it definitely wasn't as action-packed as the movie. The book is more of just, I don't want to say typical, but it's like you're you're joined the army, go through boot camp, you know, see combat, get promoted. Also, like, you know, um, you know, moral comments on war and and the military structure and military discipline. That's what this, but set in a sci-fi world where there are bugs and spaceships and Tom has disappeared.

Jen 4:06

Yeah.

Joe 4:07

Um, I'm still here. Still with us. There he is. There you are.

Jen 4:10

I have a qu I was gonna ask you that. Like, are the bugs the same in the book?

Joe 4:14

Um, there aren't so they they definitely add more types of bugs in the movie. Okay. Um, in the book, there's there's worker bugs, there's warrior bugs, and then there are the brain bugs and a queen.

Tom 4:33

But like aren't the bugs like more like technology using than and less like just natural? Like, like in the movie, it's like uh the bugs have natural abilities that allow them to space travel. Is it an I I thought I understood the book was like, no, they have technology.

Joe 4:48

Yes, yes, they do have and there's also like a third party they call the skinnies, which are other like alien type beings, but they don't really go into there's not really much detail about that. Um yeah, the bugs are and they take a lot, they do take a lot of stuff from the book, right? Like in the movie they talk about how you know uh Neil Patrick Harris does that demonstration of how to kill the bugs, like you could take off their limbs, but they'll still keep going, which is the same in the book. Um But yeah, it's not as there's not as many different types of bugs. There were they don't they don't talk about flying bugs and then like the bugs that shoot flame flamethrower bugs and bugs that are can also shoot missiles into the space.

Jen 5:34

Plasma?

Joe 5:35

Plasma, yeah. That's not necessarily uh yeah.

Jen 5:40

That's not necessarily I have to say, you've positioned um this background photo very well, but it kind of looks like you are Johnny Rico.

Joe 5:50

Yeah, if I if I go like that.

Jen 5:52

Yeah.

Joe 5:53

There we go.

Jen 5:54

There you go.

Tom 5:56

Yeah, that's it. A little bit the other way. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Just move your hand down a little. There you go.

Joe 6:05

Anyway, uh you have to come on YouTube to see that part.

Tom 6:09

Yeah.

Joe 6:09

All right. So let's let's talk a little bit about the book. So, right, the Heinlein wrote this in 1959. Uh, it was born from his visceral reaction to the geopolitical climate of the late 1950s. So on April 5th, 1958, oh wow, only two days anniversary, a one-day anniversary from when we're recording this, uh, the National Committee Committee for Sane Nuclear Policy published a manifesto in the Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph. It's a lot of, it's a lot of Gazette Telegraph. I don't know why you need both of those, uh, calling for a unilateral suspension of nuclear testing. Appalled by this pacifist stance, Heinlein and his wife, Virginia, paused work on Stranger in a Strangeland to form the Patrick Henry League. All right, driven by white heat, which I mentioned in the uh of indignation. Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers in approximately 22 days to articulate his views on citizenship, military discipline, and the necessity of armed readiness. And just like for a little background round on Highline, right? So he's from Missouri. Uh, he graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy. And obviously, after reading, if you've read this book, you it's very clear that he was in the military because there is so much military discipline and military like code and stuff in this book. Uh, it's very, very detailed and strategy, and you know, uh, but he was forced to retire uh from I believe it was tuberculosis from the Navy in 1934. He wound up settling in California, California, um, did a bunch of different jobs, uh, postgraduate work in mathematics and physics at the University of California, and then he started writing science fiction. So just with that, clearly pro-military, pro military discipline, and I guess war. I don't even know if I want to say pro-war, but um I don't think he would have liked this movie because I this movie is basically making fun of that, isn't it?

Tom 8:08

Yes, I think this movie is very very anti people who are pro-war. Like it's it's anti-fascist, but I think it's also something I didn't get when I first saw it is that it's kind of like anti-American pro-war culture as well, which I didn't like I got like the fascist stuff, you know, which a lot of critics didn't when it came out. They didn't understand that it was a satire and that like oh yeah, you should be you should be alarmed by all this, but like um watching it now, I'm like, oh, this is also very much like because this came out in four, yeah.

Joe 8:43

1997. This I first that's another thing that blew my mind. I forgot this came out in the nineties. I thought this came out in the 2000s, like early 2000s, but me too.

Tom 8:52

Yeah, like it it presaged all of the wars that we've had in the Middle East, or you know, and and it's very akin to that cable news pro USA, no matter what, kind of vibe that exists in a certain portion of this country.

Joe 9:07

Yeah, I mean the commercials, the the it's like just propaganda commercials or back like you know, Uncle Sam kind of uh what's the what's that guy, the the Uncle Sam guy? Is he called Uncle Sam? The guy with the Uncle Uncle Sam is the name of the guy. Okay, yeah. Um, all of that uh yes guy with all the Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam guy. It's Uncle Sam guy. What's his name? Um, so it was a little bit of a, I guess, a struggle to get this public, uh published. Um, so Heinlein had a long-standing relationship with Charles Scribner's sons. Um, I they didn't like the manuscript. Uh, the editor, Alice uh Dalglish, didn't like it. She thought it was inappropriate for violence, and there's too much political discourse. So he parted ways with that publisher. Uh, it was sub subsequently sold to GP Putnam's sons, where it was marketed to both juveniles and adult audiences. Um, and it initially was serialized uh as Starship Soldier in the magazine of fantasy and science fiction. Yeah. And then, of course, like I said, went on to win the Hugo Award. Now he had won a Hugo Award prior to this, too. This was, I think, his second Hugo Award.

Tom 10:23

Did he did he already win one? I don't know. He won for Stranger in a Strangeland.

Joe 10:27

No, no, because he paused work on Stranger in a Strangeland to write this book. This book, yeah, okay. So Stranger in a Strangeland came out in 61. He wrote uh Double Star was 1956. That was his first Hugo Award. So he won in 59 for this, for Starship Troopers, 61 for Stranger in a Strangeland. Um, and then again, The Moon is a harsh mistress in 1966.

Tom 10:51

It's very odd to me. I love Stranger in a Stranger Stranger. I do, I like that.

Joe 10:56

I like that better than this. I will say that.

Tom 10:58

It seems like they're written by two very different people.

Joe 11:01

Well, yeah, it seems like he just got really pissed off about something and was like, I'm writing this book in 22 days. Yeah, right. Stopping work on this book to write this book because I'm just it's just like I guess it sounds like a diatribe, but it's not really. If you read the book, it's very, you know, it's well written, and like I said, it's very like heavy in military discipline and structure, and um, and it's not as action-y as the movie is, for sure.

Tom 11:29

Okay.

Joe 11:30

So interesting thing, right? And we've definitely got to talk about this with the movie, but um, so the main character, Johnny Rico, right? He's he's referred, he's the narrator of this book. It's all I. It's written in the first person. Um, you know, his name is Johnny. A couple of times you hear somebody, like I think his parents are somebody, or somebody calls calls him Juanito, and you're like, oh, is he Latino? And then I remember from the movies Rico is his last name, because you don't find out Rico's his last name, I don't think, until pretty far into this book. So I'm like, oh, I wonder if these guys Latino, because Carmen, Carmen Ibanez is like, okay, these guys, it's got to be Spanish people. At the very end of the book, you find out that he's Filipino. It's like literally like the last chapter of the book. You find out that he's Filipino. Um, and apparently this was deliberate by Heinlein to depict a racially integrated future. So I will say this movie isn't that racially integrated, but in a way it is.

Jen 12:29

Are they from Buenos Aires?

Joe 12:31

No, they're not from Buenos Aires. I don't think it says where he's where they're from.

Jen 12:36

Okay.

Joe 12:36

But I will say this his mother goes to Buenos Aires and gets killed. The father does not get killed in the in the book.

Jen 12:45

Okay.

Joe 12:45

You want to know what happens to the father? Sure. He joins the military and winds up meeting up with Johnny and eventually serves under him.

Tom 12:54

Oh wow. Yes.

Joe 12:55

Yeah. Which I understand why they cut that out in a movie. It's like probably too much. It's not what the movie's going for, but wasn't what I expected the book. I'll say that much. Um so making this movie, this is this is a great story, right? So this movie did not start as Starship Troopers, right? Uh so screenwriter Edward Newmeyer originally penned a script titled Bug Hunt at Outpost 9. Uh while while developing the treatment, producer John Davidson and Newmeyer realized the premise, which was a futuristic war against giant insects, shared significant DNA with Heinlein's book. Uh TriStrial Pictures then licensed the rights to the book to avoid any kind of legal issues or overlap, and integrated the book's names and the setting into the existing script. So this wasn't an intentional, necessarily an intentional uh adaptation. It was almost like we got to cover ourselves, but also like, oh, there's existing, you know, Hugo Ward winning, I guess, novel that we can kind of connect it to and then draw some more established fan base, I guess, to this movie.

Tom 14:05

Yeah.

Joe 14:06

Um interesting. Yeah, definitely. So the casting, of course, was very all American. Attractive people.

unknown 14:18

Yeah.

Joe 14:18

That was delivered by Paul Verhoven, who was the director of this movie, to to kind of buy uh play into that satirical propaganda vibe.

Tom 14:27

Yeah. He he he he's been on record saying he wanted these people to look like they would be in uh in triumph of the will, right? He wanted very Air Aryan looking leads, and it was about chiseled features and and blondish hair and blue eyes, that kind of vibe more than uh more than anything else, including acting skills.

Joe 14:48

No. Well, Casper Van Deen definitely fits that that type. Yeah. Um, I think it was just like let's find the most attractive people we can and put them in this movie. And I didn't look up the ages, but are we supposed to believe that that Caspar Van Deen and Patrick Muldoon are high school kids?

Jen 15:08

I think so. I also have that note. Neil Patrick Harris has like a slightly receding hairline.

Tom 15:19

Uh so Patrick Muldoon and Dina Meyer are 29. I think they're the oldest cast members.

Joe 15:23

Yes, Dina Meyer was the other one who kind of stuck out to me as like, this is not a girl. This is a woman.

Tom 15:30

Yeah. Right. I think the other actors were in their mid early to mid-20s. They weren't necessarily that much older than high schoolers, but they don't, I think the you know, Patrick. I remember watching the movie and going, Patrick Muldoon looks like he could be like their uncle. Like he's he to me, he was significantly older.

Joe 15:49

I just kept referring to him as Kelly's boyfriend in uh Jeff. Jeff got the same.

Jen 15:54

I'm like, this guy is this Jeff, or is he just playing the same part? And then I'm like, I think it is actually him.

Joe 15:59

He's also playing the same part as well.

Jen 16:01

Right.

Joe 16:03

So uh let's see, Denise Richards was 26 or so around that. So yeah, mid-20s. Okay, she she maybe could be a a uh a high school kid, but I get it. But uh yeah, they seemed very they seemed too mature and too old to be in this movie.

Tom 16:21

Right.

Joe 16:21

Uh let's see, Caspar Van Deen. Well, let's see, how old is he? Casper Van Deen was almost 30.

Tom 16:28

Oh, okay.

Joe 16:29

He was born in 68, and this movie came out in 97. So they probably filmed it in 96, 95, 96. I think it's a good one.

Tom 16:35

So he's 28, yeah.

Joe 16:37

Yeah, so definitely went different from the book in that sense.

Jen 16:41

Are they in high school in the book?

Joe 16:43

It starts off they graduate from high school. Like there's there's not there's not really any high school in the book. There's like, I think he talks about the class that he has with Michael Ironside in the movie, who is by the way, doesn't join the military and become his lieutenant. That doesn't happen in the um right. Ratchak is in the book. He is a military, he is, he does serve under Ratchak, but he's not his teacher. That's a different character.

Tom 17:11

Okay.

Joe 17:12

Uh what was I saying? Oh, yeah. So some other potential uh castings for Johnny Rico, Mark Wahlberg, James Marsden, who actually turned down the role.

unknown 17:26

Both of them.

Jen 17:27

James Marsden is good looking enough.

Joe 17:28

Reportedly turned down the role. Yeah, I think James Morrison would have been pretty good in this. For sure.

Tom 17:34

Yeah. I think James Marston maybe he turned out to be too good of an actor to play this part.

Joe 17:40

Yes. Oh okay. I think it would have it could have lended itself some uh.

Tom 17:48

He definitely is exactly physically where you need to be. Another person whose jawline could like cut glass. Yeah.

Joe 17:55

Cut aliens uh or bugs. Uh so production for this movie was physically grueling. If they filmed in Wyoming's Badlands, saw temperatures exceeding 110 degrees Fahrenheit, resulting in 25 crew members being hospitalized for heat exhaustion in one single day. Uh so uh visual effects supervisor Phil Tippett utilized a blend of CGI and practical models to create the arachnids, uh, to give it to give something for the actors to react to. Verhoven often ran around the set screaming and waving poles to represent where the bugs would be added in post-production. Uh, which I feel like that happens a lot. I feel like any types of these movies with CGI, you always hear stories about like directors or PAs running around like with sticks or things, waving their hands to give them something to react to. Uh, I will say this for 1997, the special effects in this movie are really good.

Tom 18:49

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they had been working on this, and uh Tippett, you know, was a was a uh was an SFX guy before he was a VFX guy as well. So like they had plotted out a lot of these action sequences using like figuring out how they would use like real life, like whether it's gonna be miniatures or puppets or whatever, blah blah blah. And then during the pre-production of this, obviously Jurassic Park came out, that changed everything. Oh yeah. But um the fact that they were so uh planned out about uh what they wanted and how they wanted it to look and what the sequences would be led to the VFX people being very clear about what needed to be shot and what it needed to look like, and especially at that time, it still happens today. Like that's that's your biggest marker for good VFX versus bad VFX.

Joe 19:34

Yeah, and Tippett worked on Jurassic Park. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, he brought that over. He worked on you know Star Wars and he's very obviously well-known and successful uh and talented uh VFX guy. Um I mean it shows. Yeah, I thought the I mean, I again not realizing and remembering that this movie was from 1997, I was like, wow, these are these are good special effects for 1997. Yeah, um, maybe I'm not giving enough credit to 1997 though, but um so this movie was a bit of a commercial disappointment. The budget was over$100 million, it grossed just uh 54 or just under 55 million domestically, but it did 121 worldwide. The I think critics didn't understand this movie. There was a lot of uh, I guess, polarizing and confusing uh reviews written about this. I have one here uh from the New York Times, quote, a plot that is half beach blanket bingo, half Iwo Jima. Which I think kind of sums it up, to be honest with you. Um, they didn't get the satire part of it. I think a lot of people.

Tom 20:46

That really surprises me. Paul Verhoeven is a known quantity at this time. I mean, Robocop came out in 1987.

Joe 20:52

Yeah, total recall had come out not that long ago. Yeah.

Tom 20:55

Like people have gotta understand, like, I don't know how people didn't understand who this guy was and what kind of movies he made to then to then think like this was just a sincere, like fascist fantasy film.

Joe 21:07

I, you know, reading that, doing the research and then watching the movie, I literally from the first scene, I was like, this is clearly a satire. The very first scene, I think that it's a com it's one of those commercials, right? That they do propaganda commercials. I feel like it's very clear this is not taking itself seriously.

Tom 21:24

Yeah. What when they have the kids smashing the bugs and stuff, like I guess. Yeah, like snapping on the bugs. Doing your part.

Jen 21:31

Like I'm doing my part. Yeah.

Joe 21:35

Uh yeah, I don't know. I guess people I I feel like this is one of those movies, you know, there are those movies that come out and they're just not people aren't ready for them yet. And I feel like this is one of those movies where people just weren't ready for that yet, or they weren't in the right it just came out at the wrong time. People weren't in the right headspace for it. But I mean, this movie is a cult classic, right? This movie went on to become huge. I mean, they made sequels, there's animated movies, there's uh video games that came out for this movie. So or you know, the multiple movies that came out. So this I guess went on to become a pretty damn successful movie.

Tom 22:09

Yeah. I haven't seen any of those. I heard one of them is actually legitimately very good. Like one of the direct to video sequels.

Joe 22:16

Like but I don't think I've seen any of them either. But um I think there was backlash though also from fans of the book. You know, it's very like I said the tone of this movie is very different from the book. The book is very serious and clearly pro-military, whereas this almost seems like I don't know if this is not pro-military, but it's pro like you said fascism and pro so may and and maybe it's hard to pick those two apart from each other.

Tom 22:43

Yeah.

Joe 22:44

Yeah.

Tom 22:44

I I I think yeah I I think like the fans of the book are the only ones who seem to get what they were going for with this and were insulted by it.

Joe 22:54

Yes. I mean one of the huge things I think and I was disappointed after reading the book that we didn't get in the movie is uh the combat is very different. And I I want to talk a little bit about that, right? So there's in the book there are these big powered suits that all of the soldiers wear. And these things are like you can jump super high in them and they have screens and you can communicate through them and you have weapons through them and they have jets and all kinds of things and you can't on these planets they can't just breathe the air because it's too much nitrogen I think in the air or something I can't remember. And the combat scenes are all revolve around them in these suits which does not happen in the books at I mean in the movie at all which I would have liked to see those suits but I guess that's just too much and then I guess you don't want to cover all those beautiful faces.

Jen 23:45

Yeah. Um I also I didn't feel like the the the military strategy in this was very good. No that's why probably you guys shouldn't fight them like that anymore. I have notes about they're not winning.

Joe 24:01

There's just no organization like anyone can just yell out orders and people follow them and it's I'm telling you Highline would have been furious if we saw if we saw this movie.

Tom 24:12

Yeah and I I think some of that I don't know about all of it but I think some of that is intentional right I think the movie is is is trying to get you like if you like if you're paying attention the bugs are the bugs are only not only like not humanity's enemy really but are also probably just better than humans. Like they're smarter they're more strategic they plan they work as a like they work well together like whereas people are just like chaotic kill machines.

Joe 24:41

Yeah yeah for sure uh yeah it's very it's very different like Heinlein obviously you know was very pro-military service and you know it's a pathway to civic virtue and honor and Verhoven's just like nah it's a meat grinder where you get indoctrinated into some sort of fascist culture. So definitely definitely different vibes. Johnny Rico is not a white waspy guy he's a Filipino in the book you find you don't find out he's Filipino till the very end. It's like the last chapter of the book you find out that he's Filipino but he is referred to once or twice as uh Juanito um and Carmen Ibanez is I they referred her as Carmencita a couple of times in the book. Um Carl is Carl he's still Carl uh I don't remember if they mentioned his last name but I will say this those characters of Carl and Carmen are not really in the book very much. They're in the beginning when they sign up to the military he runs into Carmen uh again at one point in the book uh then she's gone and then she kind of shows up again at the towards the end and Carl kind of shows up at the end but they're not nearly in the book as much as they are in the movie especially uh Denise Richards's character there's no you know they're not together in the books no she's somebody that goes to school with them that he knows that he has a crush on and they flirt a little bit but they're never together there's no love uh love triangle triangle there's no Patrick Muldoon's character does not exist in the books there's no football game there's no there's no space arena football or space ball in the books I forgot I forgot about that I forgot about that too um oh there's there's also no um uh what's it called uh integration of the sexes in the military uh the women do become pilots like I don't think there are male pilots in the book like only women become pilots from what I remember but and it's still it's very it's segregated there men there's only men in the in the mobile infantry there's no women like in this movie where we get you know a lot of women fighting alongside the men and we get a and I think this one yeah one of the most famous scenes from this movie is the uh is the shower scene the co-ed shower scene it's gratuitous obviously but nobody makes a comment it's like they don't know that they're nude so it's kind of like showing that they're all equal to each other.

Jen 27:18

So I guess I kind of like that about it, but it's completely gratuitous like for all the women to be topless and whatever.

Joe 27:23

Uh well but I kind of like it in that way where no one's like ooh you know they're all just like whatever we're showering it's no big deal you know so so to ease the cast discomfort did you know that Paul Verhoven and his cinematographer were also naked during the scene while filming it that's it's what you gotta do.

Tom 27:41

We're all in this together for no uh what do they call it the intimacy coordination they didn't have that then but like the point is like the like well I guess there's that's your point there's no intimacy right like it's not there's no it's just nudity and I well one woman smacks that guy's ass at the end so oh all right not really like and they did it that way right they had the woman smack the guy's ass there was no like guy smacking women's asses in this it was like a guy smacking it was supposed to be like you know a guy smacking another guy's ass just like whatever yeah um that yeah he he specifically because Verhoeven grew up in a like a fascist uh controlled government and and so like he felt that there was no sexuality in fascist culture there was no there was no uh I don't know there was no like physical desire because it was all about like the the self and not you know there's a lot of physical desire in this movie well there is there is not in this scene but like so like that was that was the purpose of that scene to show that like not only is everybody equal but like there's no that that's not what people think about right so I I did mention that Robert Heinlein obvious died in 1988 so he didn't get to see this but his widow was alive and uh she called this film a travesty so I think that's as close as we'll get to uh and I mean Heinlein himself was skeptical as Hollywood he once said uh a writer who expects his work to remain intact in Hollywood is a fool you take the check and you run for the hills.

Joe 29:10

So that's it then maybe he wouldn't have cared I don't think he would have the money he probably wouldn't have sold the rights though then I'm right I mean no it sounds like he's like no just get your cash and who cares what they do at that point. Your book still exists right the book's on the shelf right yeah it's easy to say that that but it's another thing to see it. Well yeah now there wasn't there was an adaptation of this that came out in 1988 there was like uh an anime series like a Japanese anime series that came out uh of this in 1988 I don't know if it was before or after he died though that's what killed him yeah um should we should we just start getting into this movie I mean we already talked a bunch about it but like shall we shall we start from the beginning sure this whole pre-military section where they're in high school and that they're dissect dissecting the bum if you throw the bomb it really looks real it's really it's like too real looking I have that as a note the dissection scene was was I liked it I thought that was a nice touch instead of dissecting a frog they're just dissecting a giant bug Johnny's really into it he's like laser focused on that bug um I want to talk about the the scene between um Johnny and Carl when he's trying to read minds it's it it reminded me of the Ghostbusters scene yes a little bit in the beginning when he's uh when Venkman zapping them uh seems like a bit of a take off this by the way I don't think I don't recall any psychic abilities in the book there is a guy who shows up at the end in the last big battle who has some sort of weird ability and is able to map the under the underground bug tunnels just by like kind of walking around and sensing them. That's the only kind of that's that's the one reference to like some sort of psychic ability in the book.

Tom 31:10

So yeah I mean I I think it's an it like it's an interesting like the the the the the movie and maybe this goes back to the fact that like humanity probably isn't really doing that well like comparatively like this society seems to really value intelligence and if you happen to be intelligent you're going to just uh you're gonna be you're gonna be given higher status like off the bat.

Joe 31:31

Yeah um and that's I guess that's why they went with this right yeah and that's how it is in in the book it's the same way like Johnny's got terrible math there's there's a lot about math that's they're very focused laser focused on the math in the in the book he's Johnny's not good at math. Uh Carmen is good at math and she's a woman and she's got good grades so she immediately goes into like the become a pilot and Carl goes into um it's not military intelligence I forget what they call it in the books but he goes in you know he's also he's very like book smart so he gets to go into the other thing and basically Johnny's not smart enough to get into any other uh part of the military yeah so he winds up just getting or signing up for the mobile infantry uh which is the book the the movie kind of you know pretty much sticks to that there's no space ball arena game did you did you notice when there during the game when there's a scene where like uh Patrick Muldoon's character what what's his name uh Xander Xander when he gets you know whatever tossed into the stands and then he starts talking how how much sweat is dripping down from him he's it's like he just jumped out of the in the in the pool. I guess so yeah yeah and this some of these scenes are really just corny when they all vow to to stay friends forever they're in high school but is the that's one of the things where like is this supposed to be like funny are they like making fun of that or is that genuine I don't think there's a genuine scene in this film.

Tom 33:13

I think that the like I think that the actors are sincere when they're doing their performances but I don't think the director's sincere in filming it do you think the actors knew though do you think like they got think I do not think Casper Van Dyan knew what he was doing. If you read interviews with him to this day I don't think he knows he was cast only because of how he looks and almost in spite of how he acts he's not that bad. No he's not terrible in this he's not terrible it's not like offensive but like I don't know if he understands what this movie is about right now.

Joe 33:46

That's what maybe he's listening. That's interesting. Yeah I was wondering that through this whole movie like do the actors know that this is like a satire I feel like some of them do like I feel like Michael Ironside they were just like Michael Ironside be Michael Irons in this movie like you know Clancy Brown be Clancy Brown in this movie.

Tom 34:07

So I I think so I've I've you know I was reading a lot of like there's a lot of people because because it became a cult classic and because it has a lot of actors who are very like popular on the convention circuit and things of that nature there's a lot of interviews with people about being in the movie. Clancy Brown definitely got it he had someone he is someone who had read the story before he was cast in the in the in the movie and was like was surprised that it was subversive right um I think Ironside's kind of the same Ironside's a very intelligent like person if you've if if you've heard of interviews oh yeah I think he was just like yeah I love yeah I feel like he probably knew what was going on and he was he got it and he was just like I just gotta play this like uh I gotta play it straight play it straight that's it right but I can't like I think everyone like when Neil Patrick Harris walks out at the end of this film and he's in full like SS regalia like like Gestapo yeah right like everyone's gotta go like there's something here but like I don't know how many people were like understood that I don't know how many people thought what the critics thought which is like that's what this movie's about it's about a fascist society and they win and isn't that great you know or whatever versus people who are like understanding that there's another layer to it.

Joe 35:20

Yeah you know and I mean Paul Verhoven famously didn't finish reading the novel because he thought it was too boring and militaristic. So it was just like okay this is enough I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do.

Tom 35:32

Right.

Joe 35:33

Uh yeah I don't there there's like when Carmen first you know goes to the ship she's going to start her training and they're like running and she slides down the banister and I was like is this like a Disney movie? What's going on here?

Jen 35:47

I don't even remember that.

Tom 35:49

You don't remember that no yeah there's like her and uh Amy Smart's character when Amy Smart yeah that's right yeah that was definitely one of the oh yeah Amy is that Amy Smart Yeah same thing I thought yeah they they it's like the first scene where they go to train like she they're like running they're chasing each other in and then you know Denise Richards slides down the banister I'm like what is going on here is this a Disney movie uh also question for you Tom when there there's one of those infomercials is like the psychic right there's the guy doing the psychic thing was that the guy from psych yes it okay yeah the cop right am I allowed to answer you're allowed to know you're not psych I'm sorry I didn't realize you had psych Timothy Omenson is the Timothy Omenson with like black hair and yeah yeah yeah yeah he actually ended up having a stroke yeah after psych and uh but he still acts okay but yeah he was yeah it was a pretty serious uh yeah but yes like he had to learn how to walk again and stuff yeah but um yeah like you said like this movie is filled with I think we talked about it before we started recording I I did not remember this at all that Rue McCall McCallahan's in the movie yeah I didn't I didn't even see her as the biology teacher yeah oh I didn't even know that during that dissection that's Rue McClagan I gotta oh man well like that she's like heavily made up I think right yeah and like that's another thing like uh everyone is like in the background or in everyone's disfigured missing limbs like the society is just the human society is is insanely violent and militaristic.

Joe 37:28

You know that's that's what they just want to well they only show this one side of I mean they only show the mobile infant like not the mobile infantry but the whole the military.

Tom 37:36

You don't really get much of well that's why they wanted to show like here's your teacher she's just you know got bird scars and here's Michael Ironside is a teacher and he's missing a limb and like yeah what like their their their big sport is I guess like a super violent gymnastic football game I don't know.

Joe 37:55

Yeah yeah there's a lot of flipping in that game yeah the one other thing too about that that pilot training session is just like they come in and just grab controllers and start flying there's no there's no like I've got to check things and turn things on and there's switches and preparation it's just oh here come in and just take the controller like a video game. Yeah I thought that was uh you know unrealistic in that sense the best pilot that they've ever seen she's like an inch away from hitting the wall when she's like pulling out at that one point she's changing courses no she's changing courses during her training and that nobody has a problem with that like she's the best there's a lot of flouting orders and just doing whatever the fuck you want in this movie. Like you're in the military but you can do whatever you want there's encouragement of of uh sexual relationships there's you know just anyone can shout out orders and somebody follows it you can just change plans and you know nobody really cares. It's very very you you understand why the bugs were probably gonna win.

Jen 39:02

Yeah and this movie is very very violent very gory. Well it's a Paul Verhoeven movie so when the guy uh I don't know the one of his friends gets his head blown off during the training during the training oh my god what the Yeah they'll let you know right right from Trump.

Joe 39:20

That that does not happen in the book. If it if something like that happened in the book he would have been kicked out of the military Joe. He's too good looking they're just gonna whip him like they do whip people in the book that's like administrative punishment is exactly the same thing in the book it's like 10 lashes.

Jen 39:41

Why? They have technology why don't they just do torture another way? Why are they still whipping people?

Joe 39:46

Uh because it hurts I guess yeah because you discipline through pain like a heritage I don't know but there's a lot of explanation like in the books in the book whenever like something like that happens or whenever there's a lot of questions that like Rico asks and they're when he's studying there's questions asked and like they answer like this is why we do this because this if this this this and this and they it's very like explanative what's the what's the that's not a real word explanatory explanatory.

Jen 40:19

I don't know yeah also uh who puts the knife is it is it Clancy Brown who puts the knife through Jake Bucy's hand I hear this is the first time it's been however long recording that we're mentioning Jake Bucey and then and then like the next scene he's playing a violin like how does that doesn't hurt you after you just got a knife through your hand?

Joe 40:39

Well they have special healing heal him with like 3D printers.

Jen 40:44

Yeah yes they put him in tanks and why why did they put Johnny Rico's name on the killed an action list if they knew he was in the tank healing. Was that like a like a trick?

Joe 40:56

I think they made a mistake it's a mistake.

Jen 40:58

Okay yeah it's just it's weird like why it's like for the movie character's benefit.

Joe 41:04

Yes so Carmen could see I'd think he's dead yes exactly 100% because they're like oh you're killed you're dead yeah meanwhile he's not dead nope I think it's 100% for what you said Jen so that Denise Richards could think he's dead and be sad and upset about it. Um and realize that she does really love him I guess I don't know what did what did you all think about that relationship between Carmen and Juan she Johnny I don't know.

Jen 41:34

He was like a high school boyfriend for her I don't think she I think she was just like beyond him.

Tom 41:40

Well yeah I think like yes I think she is beyond him right uh though he's really really good at killing people so he advances and gets to a point where there's a little bit closer equality between the two of them. Um I think that they will have beautiful children and that's probably the most important thing. Yes beautiful skilled children.

Joe 42:03

I feel like they are both too good looking to be with each other. It's not fair to everybody else there's gonna be some sort of uh deformities with their children because when two really good looking people get together their kids are ugly. Um one other person that's true one other person that I all our kids are beautiful so it's fine. One other I yelled out Sue Ellen Mishke's in this movie. Yeah I couldn't I was like I know this woman I know this woman where do I know her from it's Sue Ellen Mishkey and then I wondered is she wearing a bra uh heiress to the O'Henry fortune.

Tom 42:47

That's right. That's right.

Joe 42:48

I think it's the first battle scene with the bugs where I guess you know Jake Busey is the ace right that's his character's name Ace is like the squad leader and when the uh who's their who's the I don't remember who their leader was at that point but when he goes down it's like Jake Busey's gotta give the orders and he's like uh uh I don't know what to do and and Johnny saves the day by going kill them all like that's that's his grand strategy and grand leadership just yells out kill them all and they go charge and they fight and uh that shows a lot of leadership just second Ghostbusters second ghostbusters esque reference getter Ray that was your plan yeah yeah but apparently this plan works and it's very uh it's seen you know it saves the day well meh I mean a lot of people die that's true but I think uh no matter what a lot of people would have died I just don't think they should have been fighting them on the ground like use a a spaceship of some kind and fire on them. Like why are we running at these things and just ripping people in half I don't know the whole military strategy uh seems very lacking In this movie, but I guess that's kind of the point.

Jen 44:03

Mm-hmm. Oh, I have a question. Oh, I I have a note here and I just figured out what it means. So um they kind of like turned the war effort up after they blew up, after the bugs blew up Buenos Aires. Okay. But why were we fighting them before that?

Tom 44:19

Because so if there's two reasons for it, I would say there's like a service level reason and then another, like a like a deeper reason. So I would I'm just going for the deeper reason. And it's the same reason that it's the same answer to your other question as to why aren't we just shooting them from space? Because the only way for a a a fascist government to keep things in line is to be militaristic and like have a lot of its populace just invested in the military and weed it out, right? We have to like that's it. Just get them in there, kill them, and then anyone who survives is likely going to be in the mindset that we want them to be.

Joe 44:59

Yeah. Right. And if there's no bug enemy, if there's no enemy to humanity that the that the worlds or the whatever universe can rally around, then people are gonna start realizing that their government is fascist and terrible.

Tom 45:10

Oh, okay. Right. And you know, you you can't have that. So yeah, I think that's it. Like my my question is like, did the did the bugs attack Buenos Aires? Or did the people or did humanity just go, all right, we're gonna lose Buenos Aires, and then that'll that'll help rally the phones. Yeah, yeah.

Jen 45:28

Like, like, did we go out into space and find them and we're like, oh, we gotta get rid of these things? Like they were, they didn't come to us until if they even came at all to Buenos Aires.

Joe 45:38

So there's definitely other planets where humans are inhabiting, and then there's you know, intergalactic conflict with these bugs. I'll say this in the book, the reason that they go and fight on the ground, and again, like I said, they're in these big military suits, like space suit, like mech warrior type things, so um, is because they're trying, I should say this, the strategy, the strategy in the book is not to try to wipe them out because they think because it's very clear that there's a lot of bugs, and it's probably gonna be very difficult to wipe them out. They're really trying to figure out a way to potentially understand them and communicate with them and potentially broker some sort of truce or peace with the bugs.

Tom 46:19

Okay. Oh, very different.

Joe 46:20

Okay, yes, yes, oh yeah, it's very different, very different.

Tom 46:24

Uh kill them all.

Joe 46:26

Yeah, no, there's no killing because you're right. If the if the strategy is kill them all, then they would just nuke the planets, like they wouldn't even land.

Tom 46:34

Right, yeah, right. And like the communication breakthrough in this movie is not now we can have peace, it is there, it's afraid, and everyone cheers.

Joe 46:45

Yeah, yeah, right. Um yeah, and I think that's that's a big part of it. I also um I also like I said, I think I mentioned it before. There's like also like a third party called the skinnies, which are like other types of aliens that are kind of in the mix, so there's like other elements I think that that are also in there with, but yeah, the strategy is not to wipe out the bugs in the books, because I don't think humanity thinks that that's possible.

Tom 47:13

Okay.

Joe 47:13

Uh, but that's not fun in the movie. We're gonna try to wipe them out as inefficiently and ineffectively as possible. Yeah, we talked about the gore. I mean, there's a lot of violence, Jen. You said it in this movie, a lot of gore. I mean, heads getting chopped off, people's bodies getting uh split in half, and brains getting sucked out. Brains, yeah. There's there's no brain sucking in the books. The bugs aren't trying to suck people's brains out to learn about humans. That's not a thing. Um there's one, I don't remember which scene it is, but one of the combat scenes, they're all like surrounding the bugs and kind of herding them into a circle, but there's people in the middle, like all surrounding in a big circle, like the military people all firing into the center. And I was like, that's not smart. Right. You're gonna shoot the person across from you. Uh what else we got? I talked a little bit about flamethrower bugs, plasma, rocket firing bugs.

Jen 48:15

Yeah, that's like they could fire plasma from the surface of a planet all the way up into space to take out the ships.

Joe 48:23

Yeah.

Jen 48:24

That's effective.

Joe 48:25

Yeah. I don't on their part. Those are pretty cool bugs.

Tom 48:29

Yeah.

Joe 48:30

I mean, the combat sequences are all kind of enjoyable, however, unrealistic they are. They're they're definitely entertaining and fun. Um you mentioned you mentioned Jake Busey playing the violin.

Jen 48:43

Yeah.

Joe 48:44

After that that fight, right? Michael Ironside comes out and he's got like these two, you know, whatever, big crates full of entertainment, and it's beer, footballs, and violins.

Jen 48:54

Yeah.

Joe 48:56

That's it, man.

Jen 48:57

He knows. He knows what they want.

unknown 48:59

Yeah.

Joe 49:00

And when when Jake Busey's playing the violin and um Rico and Dizzy are dancing, and he's just behind them, like staring creepily at them while he plays the violin, and he's like I'm like, all right, Jake. A little bit of creep, a little bit too much. Take it down. Don't go down a notch.

Jen 49:18

We didn't really talk about Dizzy at all.

Joe 49:21

Oh yeah.

Jen 49:23

And how she dies in his arms like Eponine in Le Miz.

Tom 49:30

I don't know if that was the connection that I made. Okay.

Jen 49:33

I wrote, Don't you fret, Monsieur Johnny Rico. Oh, she finally got what she wanted.

Joe 49:41

Yeah. Yeah, she says, I got to have you, Johnny, right? She says it doesn't matter because I finally got to have you.

Jen 49:47

That's it.

Joe 49:48

You could have had him some more.

Jen 49:50

She wanted. Well, she was dying. She didn't I forget exactly how she died in the battle. I don't remember exactly how she was.

Tom 49:55

She just speared through through multiple times, I think. Right. Yeah, but like the class, like she's like got the leg in her, and they like they shoot the leg off and then they pull it out of her to make sure she dies.

Jen 50:06

She pulls it out. Yeah.

Tom 50:08

Yeah.

Jen 50:09

Okay.

Tom 50:10

A lot of people. He's not smart. He's not smart.

Jen 50:12

No medical training, no, no military formation training, nothing.

Joe 50:18

No, there's no military formations. There's no there's no organization whatsoever. Like I said, I think I think it's summed up when Caspar Van Deen uh decides to yell out, kill them all. Like that's the strategy. Just go in there.

Jen 50:33

Oh, that's why we're here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Joe 50:35

I mean, there's some plans later on where they're trying to capture a brain bug. That's like a strategy. And that's part that's like the last scene in the book as well. Like they're trying to capture one of these brain bugs or queen, which apparently it's just very much like insects society, where there's a queen and she controls basically and gives out orders, like through whatever, some sort of telepathic thing. And um, you know, there's workers in the book who are not violent bugs, they're worker bugs, and then there's the warrior bugs who are the ones that uh that they have to fight. And then there are some brain type bugs, I think. Uh I have a question about Michael Ironside's death. He gets his legs cut off again. Right? Because in the beginning he has no legs, right? Am I right about that? Or does he have legs?

Tom 51:30

He just has a biscuit an arm.

Joe 51:31

Oh, you know who I'm thinking about. The recruiter.

Tom 51:34

I think they're like the there's the recruiter who has no legs. Yeah. It's the recruiter. Okay.

Joe 51:39

Yeah. I forgot. I forgot.

unknown 51:42

Yeah.

Tom 51:42

Ironson's already lost an arm and now he loses his legs.

Joe 51:45

Yeah, and the recruiter is. I don't know if it's the recruit if it's the same. There's so many people who do double duty in this movie. It's either the recruiter or the lieutenant for the um, yeah, I think it's the same person. He's like the lieutenant during the boot camp. He's like the head officer during the boot camp. Is uh the guy from Breaking Bad.

Jen 52:02

Yes. Yeah.

Joe 52:04

Um he's the his brother-in-law.

Jen 52:07

Hank?

Joe 52:08

Yes, Hank. That's Hank from Breaking Bad. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Tom 52:12

Okay. I never saw Breaking Bad.

Joe 52:14

Yeah. Uh just got a lot, he's much younger and has more hair. A long time ago. And s and slimmer, right side, too.

Tom 52:21

Yeah.

Joe 52:22

That was another guy I noticed too in this. Very quickly, just let's shoot him. Not saving him shooting.

Jen 52:29

Yeah.

Joe 52:30

He said he'd do it for him, but he asked him for that. Uh okay, the the look that Denise Richards gives to Xander when she realizes that Rico's still alive. Did you notice that? Like, she's like, he's still alive, and she she's like very like shocked and excited. And then she kind of looks at Xander and is like, like, what? Like, I don't like him anymore. Yeah.

Jen 53:01

Yeah, I don't know.

Tom 53:02

So I'm reading in reading up for this, like, um, apparently, like in the original cut, you know, they filled a lot more scenes where where her and Xander were more clearly together, like, and then everyone was like, oh, she's a bitch in the all the test audiences. So they cut out all of the scenes, like making it clear that they were in a relationship. But like, I don't know, I feel like I never, I never I always assumed they were in a relationship watching this movie. I I still felt like it was it was there.

Jen 53:28

There no one has any chemistry in this movie.

Tom 53:31

Yes.

Jen 53:31

Like even when at the beginning, when like Rico and Carmen are kissing, I feel like their kissing is so weird. It's like they don't know what it's like the first time they ever kissed anyone. It's like very flat. I don't know. I just feel like not no none of not of two people in this movie have any chemistry together.

Joe 53:48

I've I like the chemistry between uh Johnny and and Dizzy.

Tom 53:53

Yes. Yeah. I think that's that's the I yeah. Like she has passion, right? She I think that's going back to the what we said, like Dizzy has passion and nobody else really does. I think you're right. And I think again, Jen, that's intentional. I think he intentionally cast people who just looked good and didn't bother with that because he doesn't want to show like they don't know how to be human, like almost. Like that's what society doesn't teach them those things.

Jen 54:21

Yeah, they're just like, we're attractive, we should be going out.

Tom 54:24

Exactly.

Joe 54:25

Yeah.

Jen 54:26

Like that's you know, but they're not like feeling anything.

Joe 54:30

And I kind of wish they I almost wish they didn't kill Dizzy off and he winds up with her. Like I didn't like it. I didn't like how I didn't like how that whole story resolved itself. I didn't like that she died and then he winds up with Carmen.

Jen 54:44

Yeah.

Tom 54:45

I remember not minding like I watching this movie just made me. I I I have very vivid memories of the first time I watched the film. Uh, and like I remember like still being happy when Xander died, because like yeah, because fuck that guy.

Joe 55:00

Yeah, yeah. He's he's a he's a jerk, but I mean he does he help save them, right? He's like he's he's not a jerk to the sense of like, yeah, but we're still in the military and we were comrades in the military, so I'm gonna do my job and save you because that's you know, so he does do that, and then he does, you know, try to protect Carmen. He's not like him, yeah. He does really care about her.

Tom 55:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not he's not I I don't know, uh it's tough to say evil, but he's not yeah, but he's not, yeah. He's not he's not a bad guy. Right, exactly. He's just not just a jerk.

Joe 55:34

Just a bit of a jerk. He's just really he's really just trying to steal, right, Denise Richards away from Casper Van Dien. That's that's the only and well he's a bit of a jerk in the football game, too. He's a bit of a sees Denise Richards. Well, even before that, too, I think he's he's yeah.

Tom 55:51

Yeah, he he's elitist, but he's also elite.

Joe 55:54

So like it's it's it's yeah, he does say some mean things about the mobile infantry, and um I g I get it. But yeah, he winds up dying in, I guess, somewhat not jerky douchebag way. Uh he does he does uh help protect uh Carmen. So but everything works out well in the end because you know they're friends forever.

Jen 56:20

Still friends forever.

Joe 56:22

Still friends forever. I like how how what's his name just shows up um at the end in the end battle. He just like like after they capture the bug, he just like walks out like he was there the whole time. Just like in the back watching.

Jen 56:38

He's barely in the movie.

Joe 56:39

He is barely in the movie, and yes, his Gestapo uh outfit is I forgot about that.

Tom 56:45

Um, yeah, I I I did it, I did it because I remember that was like one of the market things, and I like you know, it says in the beginning of the movie where he's um where he's like controlling the ferret or whatever. Yeah. Oh yeah, and Rico's like, Can you do that with people? And he's like, No, not yet, you know. And then like at the end, he's clearly I think there's just another level of like, now the state is is developing people who could just literally control people like puppets.

Joe 57:08

Um kind of like the bugs do.

Tom 57:12

That's right. And um I do like he he's he looks very tired, Theo Patrick Harris, at the end. Like he's he's he's whatever he's doing, it's clearly not good for him.

Joe 57:24

Yeah, I guess it takes its toll on him, or it's a lot of uh it takes a lot of energy. Uh they don't really go into much detail about that.

Tom 57:32

No, he's it's uh that's like all of it's like off-screen, right?

Joe 57:36

Yeah.

Tom 57:36

Um and I like while they're doing that, Clancy Brown comes back to be the hero to all the troops and capture the brain bug.

Joe 57:43

So yeah, and you don't even know it until like it's over, basically. Oh, by the way, we captured a brain bug. Oh, it's Clancy Brown, he came back and he's private. So this is this part is in the book. Um it's different though. So so it's Clancy Brown, Sergeant Zim. He is like the he's the sergeant during their um during their boot camp. And you know, there's a lot about him in the book that spend a lot of time in boot camp and talk a lot about Sergeant Zim. Um at one later on in the book, Rico uh goes to OCS, which is like officer training school or whatever, and he goes through a lot of training and they put him on his first like mission as a they they call him like a temporary, he's like a temporary lieutenant, right? So they they send him out on an actual mission, and he's kind of there to be a lieutenant, but he's really, you know, he's got as much power as as his boss gives him, let's him, you know, like he can be pulled at any time, he can be overridden at any time. It's almost like a you know, like a test run or whatever. And the captain who oversees him is like talking about, you know, lean on your sergeant, your sergeant is really experienced, and blah blah blah. Don't be afraid to like ask for his opinion or let him take control of certain things. And they it go like this whole end thing goes on for a while, like a few chapters at the end of the book, and they just refer and it's so funny because I remember at one point like being like, Oh, I missed the sergeant's name. Let me go back and see if I can find it, and I couldn't find it. And because they never tell you the sergeant's name until the very end where you find out it's Sergeant Sim. So it's like not known, and obviously you can't do that in the movie because you can see him, right? You can just see that it's the same sergeant, but it's like a whole thing in the book, and that's one of the best parts of the book, though, I think, and it's the last battle scene. But yeah, you find out that like through the whole time, this sergeant that he's been interacting with, and he's technically over, but also getting opinions from, and also, you know, help running the plut the squad or the platoon or whatever it is, that it's yeah, it's sergeant's in the whole time. He doesn't have to bust down to a private to join the battle, that not like in the in the movie. So yeah, that was all the ending was all basically the same in that sense. Like they the capture of the brain bug and that whole part. But but Carl's not there, I don't think. And I don't think Carmen's there either. Um Carmen's probably up in a spaceship. The spaceships never come down, they get launched out of these pods, not these big giant carriers that carry like a group of people. They're like individual pods that they get shot down to the to the land with, yeah.

Tom 1:00:20

I guess better, like yeah, you've got the the the bio suits. So like yeah, I get go I I mentioned this before, but like um again, to not like for people who don't get it, like they capture this brain bug, they're dragging it out, it's like in a net, whatever, and like Neil Patrick Harris like reads vibe, and like he's like, it's afraid. It's like this big triumphant moment, and everyone cheers. And again, like guys, like in case you, the audience, don't get it, these are thinking, feeling creatures, and like it's not like good that we're like that, like yes, it's afraid, and you've captured it, and like it's just like like you we kept you kept mentioning about like this kind of and Joe, I think you did too, about this like sunshiny Disney vibe of these guys, like friends forever kind of a thing, and like they've just they're just terrible now. Like, that's the it. Like, and they don't know, you know.

Joe 1:01:16

Yeah, we don't we just get this like the whole thing is from the view of this of this group of people and the and I guess whatever the government wants you to believe. So we don't really know if like the bugs are for comparison's sake, Native Americans, right? We just came and just took their land and started killing them because we wanted it. Right.

Tom 1:01:37

They're savages, trust me.

Joe 1:01:39

We don't know that in this movie. We we we we take everything that's you know given to us, those propaganda commercials, we believe them all, right? Or was are we supposed to believe them all? And I guess we're never we're never asked to question that in this movie. There's no there's no equivocal.

Tom 1:01:58

No character in this film has any sense like of like, like, why are we doing any of it? Like it's everyone's gung-ho, and that's tackled a lot in the book.

Jen 1:02:08

Maybe there's people elsewhere that are saying that, but not in the military. Not in this movie, yeah, and not this movie. I mean, yeah.

Joe 1:02:15

Um, because even in like the classroom training, and and they there is that like um the classroom scene in the beginning with Michael Ironside's teaching him. There, that there is a teacher that's like a I forget what it's called, history and moral philosophy or moral ethics is like the class that he takes. And and there is a lot of questioning. There's a lot of ethical questions and moral questions and relating to the military and the bugs, and there's a lot of detail about that in the book that they just were like like hindline. I mean, like Ferhoven said, it's boring. So cut it out. It would have been a very different movie, yes. Uh yeah. So uh what else? Anything we missed in this movie, particularly. Uh I will say they don't wear seatbelts on the spaceship. That last scene when the spaceship gets cut in half, everybody just goes flying around the spaceship. I guess they don't they don't need to wear seat belts. Uh brain bug looks like a brain.

Tom 1:03:14

Yeah, I think it I think it's right. The the the people who who are on like piloting the spaceships, like that level of the cast of society, like they're not they're not expecting that they'll ever have to actually be in physical danger themselves.

Joe 1:03:29

Yeah, it happens earlier in the movie though.

Tom 1:03:32

It does, but like I think society-wise, like that's those people fight. We're here. Yeah, we're literally above them in every possible movie, yeah.

Joe 1:03:42

They don't actually get into combat with the bugs. I mean that most they're like dropping uh you know weapons from above.

Tom 1:03:50

Right.

Joe 1:03:51

Yeah. So anything else that I missed? Some interesting tidbits or anything specific to the movie?

Jen 1:03:58

Is this movie rated R?

Joe 1:04:00

Yes. Oh yes.

Jen 1:04:01

Okay.

Joe 1:04:02

Uh I don't think I do anything other than R or NC17, perhaps.

Tom 1:04:10

So I don't know how true this is, but I think it's an interesting story. Um this movie got bumped from a summer release to like a September release. Um and in America, it was very there was it was just like a space action movie. That's how it was advertised. There was no hint that there was anything tongue-in-cheek, anything satirical about any of it. It did not do well. But when it got bumped from its summer release, because I think it was gonna go up, I can't remember against what, but it was going against up, it was gonna go up against another movie that ended up being kind of big that they were worried about, so they pushed it, and it was up against Bean, the Mr. Bean movie. Sorry, Rowan Atkinson, which was a surprising hit in America. And like a lot of people who made this movie really believe that because it was rated R, teenagers bought tickets for Mr. Bean and then went to see this movie.

Joe 1:05:04

Oh wow, right?

Tom 1:05:06

Because Mr. Bean was a was a surprising hit, not necessarily not a known character here in America, unless you happen to watch, like, you know, channel 13 here in New York or whatever. Um like Wow, that's interesting.

Joe 1:05:24

I didn't know that. That's yeah, I I mean that's typical.

Tom 1:05:28

I don't know if it's how true that is, right? But I I I thought that was an interesting tidbit that I heard.

Joe 1:05:34

Wow. So another interesting thing, the body armor that they used in this film was rate later reused in Firefly, The Power Rangers, and Planet of the Apes.

unknown 1:05:46

Huh.

Joe 1:05:47

Yeah.

Tom 1:05:47

Okay. That's good. That's good. All right. I like one of those things.

Joe 1:05:52

We we talked a little bit about Phil Tippett, who was the uh VFX supervisor on this. He based the movement of the arachnids on his pet tarantula. And crabs.

Jen 1:06:01

Okay. Makes sense. This guy's doing such good work.

Joe 1:06:04

Yeah. And uh Casper Van Deen cracked a rib when he jumped onto the tanker bug rig that was used to uh I guess the one where he puts the he shoots the hole into it and drops the grenade into.

Tom 1:06:16

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 1:06:16

Yeah.

Tom 1:06:17

Yeah. He like people got messed up making this movie. I think he also like chipped a few teeth. Um Bucy is one of the people who passed out from heat heat stroke and was so um was so hurt at like delayed filming for a week.

Joe 1:06:30

Yeah. I was actually talking with friend of the show Skeeter last week about this movie because uh we were talking about how we're gonna be covering it, and he lives in Wyoming and was talking about how he remembered them filming this. Oh yeah. Uh near not far from where he was. So yeah. So we mentioned this movie had a budget of 105 million dollars. It grossed 54, just under 55 million US Canada, but 121 worldwide. Uh how much it made in, you know, ancillary DVD sales and all that other stuff is probably you know well worth you know the the production of this movie. I mean it did make money, right? It it was definitely a success if you go by worldwide and then you add all that opening. It so it opened on November 9th in the US, Tom. It was the first well I was it's probably the first week in November. I was just looking at it now. I wonder what, yeah, what did it open again?

Tom 1:07:24

You said bean and that was that was uh I don't know what else it opened against.

Joe 1:07:30

Yeah. Uh all right, you guys want to give our give our ratings for this?

Jen 1:07:35

Sure.

Joe 1:07:36

Unless there's any other notes that you had that you wanted to I don't think so. Alright, who wants to go first?

Tom 1:07:44

Um I'll go first. I I I really like this movie. I I think it's a hell of a lot of fun, and I think it has a lot to say, and then and watching it, like I said, watching it now, I picked up things that I didn't get when I had first seen it, and like I feel it's as much of a satire of American military culture as it is of like fascist military culture in general. Uh I am gonna give this movie three and three quarter stars.

Jen 1:08:08

Okay. Um it was okay. I didn't I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I was going to from the first time I watched it, which was, you know, twenty years ago almost or more. Thirty years ago? Almost?

unknown 1:08:22

Right?

Jen 1:08:23

Almost 30 years ago.

Joe 1:08:24

Yeah, it came out almost 30 years ago.

Jen 1:08:26

Um yeah, so wow. I'm a different person now. So I did uh I did think it was it was pretty good. I'm I'm gonna give it a three.

Joe 1:08:35

Okay.

Jen 1:08:36

It's like right in the middle for me, kind of.

Joe 1:08:38

Uh yeah, I'm gonna give it a I'm in between you both. I I did like it. I don't know if I'm up at a 3.75 though. I'm gonna give it a 3.5 because it is a fun movie. It is ridiculous and it's enjoyably ridiculous, I think. I would say maybe it could have been a little bit shorter, two, you know, or did it need to be over two hours? I don't think so. But then I'm I like looking back, I think like what would they cut? And I probably would have cut a lot of the beginning stuff, like the space ball arena thing. Like I would have cut that out, and then was that their prom that they were at afterwards? Or yes.

Tom 1:09:10

Yeah, like I probably would have homecoming dance or something like that, whatever.

Joe 1:09:13

Yeah, I probably would have cut that down, um, or at least condensed that. I don't know if we needed that much. I I mean I loved all of the the commercial stuff. Would you like to know more?

Tom 1:09:24

That that that there were you can't give me enough of that.

Joe 1:09:27

I thought that was really great idea to use to kind of give some of the one to give you some like exposition, and two to also like pile on the ridiculous absurdity and satirical nature of the film. I I thought that was clear, those things to me were like this is clearly a satire and it's clearly making fun of itself.

Tom 1:09:46

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how people didn't get that. Um, but I guess you can get it and still not really enjoy it, and I that's fine too. I also we we I talked about it a couple of times in a negative way, but this cast is like ridiculously good looking. Yeah, and uh I think we talked about it. That's appreciated.

Joe 1:10:03

Yeah, we definitely touched on that uh just a moment.

Tom 1:10:06

We did, but I I kept knocking him. I was like, their cast cause they're good looking, not because they're good at it, but they are really good looking, and that's that's that's that's always uh you know appreciated.

Joe 1:10:16

Yeah, Dina Meyer is your consolation. I know, right?

Tom 1:10:21

Gorgeous.

Joe 1:10:22

Like whatever. Uh yeah. So like I said, this movie spawned many other movies. There were there were two sequels to live action sequels to this. Uh, I believe those were direct-to-dvd type scenarios. None of the stuff was released in theaters. Uh, there was two animated films, uh, an animated TV series for this. Uh, I think there was about a like a dozen video games for this. So, I mean, this movie I think did its part, made its money. Um, cult classic, as you mentioned, Tom, the you know, a lot of people on the comic book convention uh circuit, right? This is a huge, well, I don't know if it still is, but it was huge, you know, back on like the comic book horror convention circuit, this movie. Um, was it a successful adaptation of the book? I I would say no, because once again, it totally different message. I mean, they they took a lot of stuff from the book, names, little bits and things that happened, even down to like so Clancy Brown, he has that baton that he's you know, when when they're in boot camp that he would constantly like smack at people. That's in the book. All the all like the the the trainers had batons that they would constantly use to like um encourage the cadets.

Tom 1:11:44

Yeah, there you go.

Joe 1:11:45

Yeah, so there's definitely a lot of nods to the book, but very different message, right? More so than the Hobbit, where the Hobbit just had a different tone. This has this movie has a very different message than the books.

Tom 1:11:58

Yeah, yeah. This this this movie is like if you if you agree with this book, we disagree with you, right?

Joe 1:12:07

All right, I think it's time to wrap it up here. Uh follow us on social media, everybody. All the links uh to that stuff is in our show notes. Uh come over in Discord. I urge you all to come to Discord. Uh we have a great group of people in here where we like to chat about the movies, all different movies, TV shows, whatever, books. You'll also be able to see what adaptations we're gonna be covering next because we post those only in our Discord. So if you want to know ahead of time, somebody somebody was just recent recently reached out to me, was like, Oh, I never know what you're gonna be covering, so I don't get to like watch the movie or read beforehand. And I said, Well, you got to come to our Discord. So come over to our Discord, um, rate and reviewers wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our merchandise and Patreon. Oh, well, check out our Patreon page. We don't really have merchandise, you have to go to our Patreon page to get merchandise. Uh, links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Uh, Tom, do you have final thoughts before Jen closes us out?

Tom 1:13:03

I'm doing my part, Joe. I don't know.

Jen 1:13:06

Come on, you apes! You want to live forever.

Joe 1:13:11

Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.