Joe 0:00

Imagine taking a breezy 300-page bedtime story about a homebody in fuzzy slippers and stretching it into a nine-hour kinetic war epic involving bunny sleds and dwarf elf human love triangles. It's the cinematic equivalent of turning a haiku into a dissertation, visually stunning, technically impressive, and approximately 400% longer than anyone asked for. Have you both of you seen the have you seen all the movies?

Jen 0:44

I've seen parts of them, but not the whole thing.

Tom 0:46

I saw very little of the second movie and most of the third movie. And both of those were just like, I think I was homesick and they were just on. Like I really after see I saw this in the theaters. We saw it together, Joe. Yeah, I know. And uh I remember. And then there was zero desire to see the next two after that.

Joe 1:03

So my my wife uh said that too. She was like, I was there with you. I was like, Were you? She's like, Yeah, yeah, we went. I was like, I was like, huh, and I blocked out most of that experience. So forgive me for that.

Tom 1:16

It's like a ask me about a trip to a dentist's office.

Joe 1:19

Yeah. All right, this is Shelf to Screen, the podcast where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy literary adaptations to the big andor small screen. I'm Joe Perry.

Jen 1:28

I'm Jen Isgro.

Tom 1:29

And I'm Tom Cocozza.

Joe 1:31

And as you might be able to tell from our conversation, we are talking today. And for the next three episodes, uh, we'll be dissecting J.R.R. Tolkien's 1937 classic, The Hobbit, and Peter Jackson's 2012. Well, starting with the 2012 adaptation, uh, An Unexpected Journey. Uh, and we're gonna we're gonna talk about this trilogy treatment of this 300-page book. Um you know, we'll let's start how we always start. So I'll ask the both of you, Tom, your first encounter with the Hobbit material.

Tom 2:13

Um so my dad was a huge fan of of uh The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings from when he was a child. Uh so we had a very old box set of of the four books. I think it was published in like nine, like I think it was published around the time he was born, so around 1955, 1958, something like that. So I was always in the house. My first exposure to it was the cartoon, which I I loved.

Joe 2:38

Yeah, that's that's my first exposure too, is the cartoon.

Tom 2:42

Yeah, I read the book The Hobbit probably for the first time when I was like, I want to say like 11. I think when I was like 11.

Joe 2:48

Yeah. Um sounds about right from there, too. Yeah. Tom, almost the exact same story, ditto. Um, I'll I'll talk about so I have this is a version of the Hobbit I have. If you're if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it's like a it's a green uh box edition where the book slides out into it and it's it's got runes all around the trim of it. I remember so this my dad had this version of the Hobbit. This isn't the same one, it's the same version, but my dad has his. I bought it because it used to sit in the bookshelf, and I used to be like just enamored by just looking at it when I remember when I was a kid, like, ooh, look at this, it's in a green box thing, and and then I would pull it out and I'd be like, look at all these weird runes and stuff, and then look at the map and stuff like that. And I remember at one point, I guess it was it was after I read it, and then I had the Lord of the Rings. And if you remember in the appendices of Return of the King, is like the runes and what they uh they represent. So I translated this. Oh, awesome! And you know what it says? Uh no, it says, uh, there and back again, a hobbit's holiday.

Tom 3:51

Oh, that's amazing. That's great.

Joe 3:53

Yeah, I read this book, yeah, probably around when I was 11 as well, Tom. I think I was like maybe sixth grade, fifth grade, or somewhere around there. Somewhere around there. Yeah, and I loved it. And then I read The Lord of the Rings after it, but I saw the cartoon first as well. Yeah, and I still love this book. It's still one of my favorite books. Yeah. And then uh Peter Jackson ruined that for me. Jen, how about you?

Jen 4:17

Um, I read it a long probably not when I was a kid, but maybe when I was a teenager, which is when I read uh I read all of them. But I didn't really remember it. I remembered it, but not like every specific thing. So I've just reread it. I've I've seen the cartoon, but again, like not I don't really remember it too well.

Tom 4:37

Oh, I remember it very well. Yeah.

Jen 4:40

I've seen Lord of the Rings a million times and know that one super well, but this one uh not so much. And this is my first time watching the movie.

Joe 4:49

Oh, you didn't come to the movies to see this with us?

Jen 4:52

I guess not. I guess not invited me.

Joe 4:54

Oh, sorry, Chad. Actually, we did you a favor. It it was a blessing in disguise.

Jen 4:59

When did it come out?

Joe 5:00

2012.

Jen 5:01

Oh.

Joe 5:02

You were you went to go see the movie 2012, probably instead of this.

Jen 5:06

No, I probably was home with my child.

Tom 5:09

Yes, I'm sure it was something like that.

Jen 5:11

Oh, wasn't able to leave come out. Yeah. I'm like, 2012, wait. It wasn't that long ago. So yeah.

Joe 5:18

Yeah. Uh, so let's talk a little bit about the book before we get into the movie. Um there's a bunch of interesting things that I didn't know about this, and some that I had already heard heard about. Um But you know, there's the the story that that Tolkien was, you know, he he was he was a teaching and he found a blank page left by a student and then just impulsively wrote, In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit. Right? Not knowing what a hobbit was, and then he just kind of wanted to provide a whole story around that one line. And you know, he put a lot of stuff from the uh old Norse sagas, like especially like the dwarf names and the name Gandalf. Um and yeah, he he developed this whole story, which I think is interesting because reading it now, there's definitely I've noticed more continuity errors with the Lord of the Rings in the story, and like he actually apparently he retconned stuff in this. I had no idea he retconned it.

Tom 6:20

Oh, really?

Joe 6:21

Yeah, yeah.

Jen 6:22

How do you get uh how do you get your hands on that original version?

Joe 6:25

It probably costs a lot of money.

Jen 6:26

I know.

Joe 6:27

Yeah. Um this, unlike some of the other stories we've already talked about, there was no issues getting it published. He actually reached out to an old student of his who I guess worked with the publisher, um, gave him the manuscript to his 10-year-old son, the the publisher, Stanley Unwin. Um he must have liked it because they printed 1,500 copies. Yeah, that was the original printing in 1937, 1,500 copies. I wonder how many still exist.

Tom 7:04

I don't know. That's a great question.

Jen 7:06

Seems like something you would like somebody would donate or give away to a used bookstore by accident.

Joe 7:12

Yeah.

Jen 7:12

You just like come across it.

Joe 7:14

I I wonder if there how many of those copies can be found out there.

Tom 7:18

If anyone wants to donate donate one to the pod, we'll we'll be happy to take it off your hands.

Joe 7:22

Yeah.

Jen 7:23

So what I was talking about a hundred years old. Sorry. It'll be almost a hundred years old at this point.

Joe 7:29

Yeah, in eleven years it'll be a hundred years since Hobbit was published. They'll come out with a uh, you know, a hundred year edition, I'm sure.

Tom 7:38

Probably buy that one.

Joe 7:40

How much, yeah, they'll they'll be uh uh absurdly priced and uh people will buy that. So kind of like this movie.

Tom 7:49

Oh that's uh well let's let's talk about the book a little bit more, Joe, because like we're all happy we're all happy there.

Joe 7:59

I I wanted to get to the piece that was retconned, right? So apparently in the original edition, this 1937 edition, Gollum bet his ring as part of the riddle with Bilbo and let Bilbo take the ring. Like he's like, you won it fair and square. So and he let him go with the ring.

Jen 8:19

So that's not what it says, Joe.

Joe 8:21

Well, I'm sorry.

Jen 8:22

Look, it says Bilbo wins, but then he already had the ring in his pocket, and Gollum is like upset that he can't, he was gonna, he was going to give him the ring, but he couldn't, because Bilbo already had it, and he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry I can't give it to you. He was like upset that he couldn't give it to him, and then he showed him the way out. So both ways, Bilbo just flat out takes this ring. Oh, okay, okay.

Joe 8:47

Yeah, I guess that's true. That's true. Uh and then apparently when Tolkien was right, started writing Lord of the Rings, he realized he was like, Oh no, the ring is gonna be the center of the story, and it needs to be evil. So then he he rewrote the chapter Riddles in the Dark and changed it. And that came out, that was in 1951, I think. That's when the revision happened, and that's the version we all know.

Jen 9:13

That's in that explanation of the revision is in the front of the book that I have, and when I was reading it, I was like, what it does this mean? Like I couldn't understand it. But he's saying that Bilbo told Gandalf and the Dwarves the first story at first. But that's not real, it really happened.

Joe 9:33

Yes, it's supposed to be like an unreliable narrator situation where the narrator's lying.

Jen 9:38

I've always like, is this the right version of the Hobbit? Like, what am I I didn't understand what it meant when I was reading it? And I was like, oh.

Joe 9:45

Oh wow, that's funny that it's in it's it's actually in your version. It says that.

Jen 9:48

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what version.

Joe 9:50

I wonder if I could get our hands on that. I'm sure the actual you could probably find the actual like old chapter just like online and read it.

Jen 9:58

Maybe, yeah.

Joe 10:00

Um oh here we go. Skeeter Skeeter is posting a uh picture of a first edition printing. Oh is that all? Is this is this on eBay or Amazon?

Jen 10:12

It's uh oh actually I'm not sure.

Joe 10:15

$426,000.

Jen 10:18

It's used, but it's very good.

Joe 10:20

But you know what the stupid part about this is? They're gonna try to charge you $40 for shipping. Are you fucking kidding me? If you're selling if you're selling something for over $400,000, the shipping should be free. Yeah, should be free.

Jen 10:36

Well, I mean, at that point, aren't you like you'll just pay the $40?

Tom 10:40

Right. If you're I guess also spend more. I agree with that part, Jen.

Joe 10:47

Yeah, I wouldn't be worried about shipping costs if I was the seller either. So this is a seller who's just like, no, I want to get every penny I can out of this book.

Tom 10:56

Well, a book is a book, is a book. It costs me the same out of the shipping job.

Joe 10:59

Just like Peter Jackson is it Peter Jackson selling this?

Tom 11:02

Oh my oh my.

Joe 11:04

So I did I did do a reread of this book. I just finished it a couple of days ago, and I felt like I was due. I feel I read this book, I feel like every eight, nine years or so, and I still find stuff in it that I don't remember happening or don't remember it happening that way. And I guess maybe I'm partially um because I do picture the cartoon when I'm reading it sometimes. Uh well, a lot of times. It's hard to get that out of my memory because the cartoon's so great and bad at the same time.

Tom 11:36

The cartoon is um unbelievable, and I it's funny because I feel like it captures the spirit of the book very well.

Joe 11:41

It does.

Tom 11:42

That's and this movie does not. No, it does not. Spoiler alert for the end. But um, yeah, the the I do the same thing, and that's like you know, I've reread the book since I've seen the this first movie, and I picture nothing from the movie. Like when I think of the when I read the book. Not not a frame.

Joe 11:59

What about you don't picture uh Azog when you read the book? Oh my god.

Tom 12:04

No, I I I even though I picture Radagast riding a bunny sled when you read the book.

Joe 12:10

Oh my gosh.

Tom 12:11

Stop. Even though I I I really true you know love the the the The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and I love um I love Gandalf in those films. I still picture Cartoon Gandalf as Gandalf when I read the books.

Joe 12:23

And the songs are the songs from the from the cartoon. Yeah. Um there's a lot of songs in this book, too. I always forget how many songs. I remember some of them, and then I'm like, well, that's a lot of songs. And they all seem to make up these songs on the spot. Like they just they all know them. And and they all know them too, yes. It's like enchanted.

Tom 12:41

Like, am I the only person who doesn't know this?

Jen 12:43

Yes. I was wrong about the amount of singing that was gonna be in the live action because I just assumed there would be no singing, and I'm gonna do it. Oh no, they're dead wrong.

Joe 12:52

Oh no, they have to do it's like I feel like it's in the contract, like always, like you have to do the sum of the songs, no matter what. Like that's one sticking point.

Tom 13:02

I think oh we'll we'll we'll get more to the movie later, but I think I remember first time watching the film, like not you know, I'm okay, I'm with it, I'm with it. And I think when they do the the the song about uh you know Bilbo not wanting him to break the plates, yeah, and it becomes an elaborate like dance number for us. I'm like, oh, this is not gonna be a good movie. Oh yeah, that stinks. Um that was like my f I think that was my first inkling. Like, this is not going. This is not going to go well. I uh it might be before then. It could have been it.

Joe 13:41

I think it was when it's it it when they finally left Bag End and it was 40 minutes into the movie, and they were only leaving Bag End at that point.

Tom 13:49

I remember leaning over to you, and um it's it's a little bit off, but the scene that is is behind us for those of you who are who are not listening but watching this on YouTube, is the scene of Bilbo running out of bag end and sort of going on adventure. Yeah, I remember leaning over to Joe in the theater going, the cartoon is over already. It took this long to just get him out of his house when we watch it.

Joe 14:14

This is literally like 20-something pages in the book. Yeah, it's over it's 40 minutes in the in the movie, and nothing really happens at all. Now, all right, so wait, before we get into the movie, let's talk a little bit about the making, like getting into like the production of this movie, because this was like a decades-long legal battle. Um, so New Line held the rights, uh, and then so and then then a massive dispute, uh legal dispute broke out between Peter Jackson and New Line over Lord of the Rings profits. Um, and then MGM had partial rights uh for distribution, and it just kind of was like a stalemate. Um, I remember I remember this. Guillamel del Toro was originally hired to be the director, and I was kind of excited about that. And I feel like at that point, remember like the the number of movies just kept growing? It was like it's gonna be one movie, and then it's like, well, well, they're gonna make two movies, right? And then like it was like, oh, well, they're gonna make two movies, but the second movie's really gonna be a lot of like an in-between the hobbit Lord of the Rings thing. And then it was like I remember there being so many rumors and thoughts about what this was gonna be, and then it was gonna be three movies, and it was like, okay, and then there's like, oh no, the it's it's gonna be just the hobbit spread out over three movies, and I was like, What? They yeah, uh, they took the Lord of the Rings, right, which is what three times the length of the probably almost four times the length of the Hobbit, and that's three movies. And then they said, Well, let's take one book, the shortest of those four books, and make that three movies. I it was immediately obvious to me that this was just a money grab.

Tom 15:56

Yeah, yeah, that's that's you're a hundred percent right, man. I that's I remember and like when when the when the thought in the fan community was, hey, they're gonna do like uh uh The Hobbit and the it was gonna be called The Hunt for Gollum was gonna be the second movie. And it was gonna be like it was gonna be an Aragorn, like was gonna be like the the lead, and it was gonna be him like looking for Golem. It'd be all the stuff like between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings that was like, Yeah, I think there's gonna be some Sauron stuff going on in there too.

Jen 16:27

That's coming out. You guys know that, right? Yeah, sure. No, there it's casted and everything.

Joe 16:31

Is that the cartoon? Is that a cartoon mark?

Jen 16:33

No, no, it's it's live action.

Joe 16:34

Oh.

Jen 16:37

I I don't know if I don't think that Vigo Morenson is playing Aragorn, but I heard that Kate Winslet is in it. I don't know who she's playing, and I read today, I don't know if it's true or not, that Anya Taylor Joy was supposed to be playing Arwen. She looks like an elf. Yeah, that one I'm not 100% sure. Oh, and Andy Circus is directing. Yes, thank you, Danny. This is like really it's really happening.

Joe 16:59

Yeah. I'm not gonna go see.

Tom 17:00

We can't wait till it's a trilogy as well.

Jen 17:03

Maybe I'll see that because uh so far. Yeah so far.

Joe 17:05

It's one of my maybe I'll see that because there's no real text about that. There's a little bit of text about that. So I like they can make it up as long as it's good.

Jen 17:15

I Ian McKellen just I don't know. Even in this, I thought it was weird because he's like much older looking.

Joe 17:21

Yeah, oh yeah. Even McKenzie.

Jen 17:22

And in this, now he's gonna do the hunt for a golem, which is also supposed to take place before. I know he's not even really supposed to be changing the way he looks at all, and now it's he's getting worse, but I don't know. Whatever. He loves CGI's face that do great things with CGI, especially in this movie. So I'm sure it'll look great.

Tom 17:39

Yeah. I mean, I was when you said Vigo's not coming back, I'd be like, well, he shouldn't. He's double the age he was when he last played.

Jen 17:47

Elijah Wood. Um I Elijah Wood I will say still looks young.

Tom 17:53

He still looks young.

Jen 17:54

Well, Beagle Morrison was old to play Aragorn to begin with, I think. Or old looking. Aragorn's 80, I know. I know, but I think I think he was supposed to look younger. Whatever. He was perfect.

Joe 18:04

Yes, yes. But well, Dan Stuart Townsend, remember, was the originally cast as much younger than Beagle Morrison, but probably about 10 years.

Tom 18:11

And I mean amongst other things. I think there were other issues, but like one of the issues were as they were filming, like, oh, he's too young. He's too young for the role.

Joe 18:20

They probably just used that as a other things as well.

Jen 18:23

Yeah. Um, but yeah, sorry. Anyway.

Joe 18:26

No, I was just gonna say Martin Freeman was basically first choice. I think Peter Jackson immediately was like, you know, that was who he had in his head for it. Uh apparently he wanted Martin Freeman so bad that they actually shut down production of the movie so he could go film Sherlock, you know, the TV show, because he was on that. So he made that accommodation for Martin Freeman because he wanted Martin Freeman to be Bilbo. And I don't think Martin Freeman's bad in this at all.

Tom 18:57

I I don't. I think yeah, I I think his performance is good. I think um the script is not where it needs to be or where it should be. Uh, but I do think I think it was very inspired casting. I think he's he's very I thought he was very I was very excited when I heard that he was going to be Bilbo. Yeah. I thought he would be a good Bilbo, and I think he was a good young Ian Holm as well.

Joe 19:19

So um so there were there were rumors going around that James McAvoy or Daniel Radcliffe could have been Bilbo. Imagine Daniel Radcliffe in this movie.

Tom 19:30

He's I I thought he would be too too young.

Joe 19:34

At that point, right in life, he would probably be a little too young, right?

Tom 19:36

Yeah, it'd be like he was like what 20.

Joe 19:40

Something, yeah, maybe.

Jen 19:41

But Martin Freeman looks like Ian Hope. He does very similar looking. I don't think the other two guys look like him at all.

Tom 19:47

So James McAvoy might be able to pass for him. James McAvoy is such a good actor, I wouldn't mind. Yeah, I know, you're right. And but but Bilbo's not supposed to be young.

Joe 19:56

He's supposed to be like he's older than Frodo is in the than Frodo in the Lord of the Race. Yeah, yeah, he's he's around 50, and Frodo's like 30 something, right? 33 or something. I forget what it is, something weird like that. Like Jesus' age?

Jen 20:10

That's Jesus.

Joe 20:12

Frodo. And like Jesus is the only one who was 33, John.

Tom 20:16

Frodo is 33 on Bilbo's birthday. Yeah.

Jen 20:19

And then don't like one year is supposed to pass. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom 20:24

In the books, he's in his forties when he leaves. Yeah. Because it's a long time between the birthday and when he goes out. In the movies, it's like the same day. I don't remember.

Jen 20:32

The movie he just like rides, reads the book, and comes back. Um goes right to where he needs to be.

Tom 20:38

Yeah, but he's still, but Bilbo is still older than that, even. Bilbo's Bilbo's in his 50s.

Joe 20:43

He's solidly a middle-aged uh that's like a four like a 40-something year old man, I would say, right?

Tom 20:49

Martin, Martin uh Freeman is the right is the right age to play Bilbo, I think.

Joe 20:54

I would say late 30s, early 40s is the equivalent, Hobbit equivalent of 50.

Tom 20:58

Yep, that works for me.

Joe 20:59

And and Frodo is supposed to be in his like 20s.

Tom 21:02

They age slower. So Bilbo's 111. That's not like an 111-year-old person. And Frodo Frodo's 33, that's like 21.

Jen 21:12

Okay, okay. That's what you're saying.

Joe 21:14

So Bilbo is in like human years, is probably in his late 30s, early 40s, I would say.

Jen 21:20

Oh, you're I'm reversing it. Okay.

Joe 21:24

Yes. Um, okay. So there was there were more issues with the filming of this um of this movie. I feel like they should have just took the signs and stopped. Um, there was uh New Zealand Actors Union boycotted over the film for contracts. They almost had to move the production to Eastern Europe. Um, just when filming was about to begin, Peter Jackson was hospitalized.

Tom 21:50

A lacerated, right?

Joe 21:51

An ulcer is ulcer, yep, yep, yep. Perforated ulcer. And then, of course, and and this is even all right. So we talked about how it was supposed to be one film, then two films. At the time of they when they started production, it was going to be two films. They decided late in production to make a third film. Which is interesting. And that required massive pickups. So they had to go back and refilm a bunch of stuff, I guess, because they had to they had to rewrite the story after it was already done being filmed. That's a real good idea.

Jen 22:22

Um but what if instead of two movies, we made three movies with another third of the money that we're gonna make.

Joe 22:31

If they had to already have basically planned to stop where they were gonna stop this movie, if they were gonna make this into two movies, they were gonna cram to the rest of the book into the second movie?

Jen 22:44

No, but maybe they just re-edited it.

Joe 22:46

Yeah, they they they could have just said like, um You think they took stuff out? They had filmed stuff for later in the book and they took it out and just like earlier.

Tom 22:55

This movie definitely has stuff in it that doesn't need to be here. Yeah. So that the climax could have been instead of the climax being what it is, the climax could have been whatever. I don't know, something that happens halfway through movie two.

Joe 23:09

That's insane.

Tom 23:09

That's another I can I'm trying to think. It could be I can't I don't remember what the timeline is, but it could be like the barrels or whatever, or the start of of the second move uh of of part two of the film.

Joe 23:21

Yeah. Well let's see. The I'll tell you what the the the middle chapter is. So this is this is 19 chapters, this book. So chapter eight is uh oh, it's in Merkwood with the flies. So they could have ended, and then and then the chapter after that is the wood elves and escaping with the barrels.

Tom 23:40

That's what I'm saying.

Joe 23:40

Yeah, the barrels could have been like it could have been like ended with the wood elves rescuing them, like rescuing them from the spiders, or you know, that whole scene. Um and then yeah. And they end in the prison of the wood elves.

Tom 23:54

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And then like part two begins with the escape of the barrels, nice action sequence of stuff and half of that.

Joe 24:00

So despite our thoughts and feelings about this movie, uh, it was around a hundred and eighty million dollar budget. Not that expensive, but don't worry, because the movie made over a billion dollars worldwide. Just this movie, just this movie. So while we sit here and you know, disparage this movie, they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Tom 24:26

Yeah, and and I think, you know, um plenty of people like this film, like just legitimately like it.

Jen 24:34

I'm happy for them. Yes. I would never want to take joy away from another person.

Tom 24:42

There are things that I like about this movie. We talked about one of them being the casting of Martin Freeman. I think that's really well done. Uh I think um there were other things.

Jen 24:51

I like Gollum.

Tom 24:53

Yes, I honestly like watching that scene, like the Gollum Bilbo, uh, yeah, the Riddles in the Dark scene, I'm like, I feel like they just really wanted to do this scene. Like that's what they really just wanted. They just wanted to do this scene. Yeah. And they should have just done that scene. It made it a short film. Yeah, it still would have made a billion dollars.

Joe 25:15

I still I I do it was good. I still feel like the the cartoon version of that scene is better. It's better. It's better done. I honest to God think it was better done in the cartoon. Um, not and I didn't dislike the version in the movie. I thought it was good, but I think the cartoon one is just so good. Yeah.

Tom 25:41

So one thing because Jen mentioned that that that Andy Circus is is gonna be filming, uh, gonna be directing this this this midquel, if you will. Andy circus, the first thing they filmed for this movie was that scene, right? The first thing was filmed, they filmed it like kind of like a play. Everything was long takes, it was just running through the whole scene. We'll change their setup, run through the whole scene again, that's sort of thing. Uh, and it was over many days to get the whole thing done. Then Andy Circus just stuck around and was the second unit director on the film. So Andy Circus like directed part of the these movies, did a lot of like the action sequences, a lot of the the you know, uh landscape sequences. Yeah, yeah.

Joe 26:21

Yeah, pretty cool for him. Uh yes, his performances Gollum was good. You know, I noticed a flaw, and this is this is a continuity error in the book, I believe. Um, and and otherwise, maybe I'm just not grasping something. So Gollum, and this is in the book too, he doesn't know what Bilbo is. He's very confused, like, what it what is it? Like, I've never seen something like this before. But he is, he was a hobbit.

Jen 26:47

So why did he forget what he is?

Joe 26:49

Did he forget? I think Jen, I think it's more of a retcon thing where it where a Tolkien didn't know that he was gonna he was a hobbit and made him a hobbit after the task.

Jen 26:58

Could he have forgotten?

Tom 27:00

He could have. He doesn't really remember.

Jen 27:02

He said, I forgot the what does he say in the Return of the King, like uh in the movie? I forgot the the the taste of bread or the sound of trees. At the beginning, Gollum, you see Gollum, the Gollum flashback, and then he's like there's like a voiceover of him becoming Gollum.

Tom 27:21

Oh, right, right, right.

Joe 27:22

Okay, yes. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen 27:24

So maybe I mean it's five thousand years.

Joe 27:29

No, it's not that long ago.

Jen 27:31

No?

Joe 27:32

No.

Jen 27:33

That whole Smagel stuff. What does Galadriel say at the beginning?

Joe 27:37

It's a it's it's a walk.

Jen 27:38

How many years he had the ring?

Joe 27:39

I thought she said I don't remember. I think hundreds maybe, not thousands.

Jen 27:43

I swear she says five thousand years.

Joe 27:45

No, the ring was made five thousand years ago, maybe, but Yeah, though the whole thing is he hasn't had it that long.

Jen 27:52

Hold on, I'm gonna find it, see if I can find it.

Joe 27:54

I don't think it's that long. Yeah, you check that out.

Tom 27:56

Um Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't make him immortal, it just extends his life.

Jen 27:59

So, Galadriel's opening monologue for oh, 500 years. For 500 years it poisoned his mind. Okay, that's what I'm saying.

Joe 28:07

Yeah. That's uh yeah.

Jen 28:09

Okay, I'm sorry.

Joe 28:10

I didn't even think it was that long, but um so I apparently blocked out a lot of this movie because I didn't remember a bunch of things, and as I was watching it, I was starting to remember. I think, Tom, before we even got to that part you said with the dwarves singing and doing a dance number that you thought this movie wasn't wasn't gonna be good, was the beginning with the I don't know, what was it, like 10-minute long flashback intro. Yeah, which I didn't like getting all the information up front. One I hate when when movies try to cram like a bunch of backstory in up front with a flashback. Right.

Jen 28:45

Um like Fellowship of the Ring?

Joe 28:47

Yes. Fellowship of the Ring does it too. I don't like it in movies general because it's like too much information right up front. I gotta remember all that and then get get into the movie. I like I would have preferred that they spread it out over the the course of the uh the the movie. And they they did do a flashback, I think they did do a flashback later on. I think that was the whole thorn, right? Was that the thorn or was that the beginning?

Jen 29:12

That's at the beginning.

Joe 29:13

Is that part of the beginning?

Jen 29:14

Yeah, okay.

Joe 29:15

Yeah, see, it's too much. Just spread it, spread it out over the movie, and then did we really need to go back to Frodo? Like, did we need all of that intro with Ian Holm?

Jen 29:25

Like you did when you had to make it three movies.

Joe 29:27

And I feel like they brought like, and then you know, obviously El Ron's supposed to be in it. Let's let's have that. That's fine. But then Galadriel shows up and Saruman. And I'm like, oh yeah. But yeah, let's just bring everybody back from Lord of the Rings. Let's just put them in this movie, even though they don't need to be in here or aren't there.

Jen 29:46

Like, why why why do we do why well it says that that was like uh in the appendices or something that that meeting took place. It's a real thing, which I didn't know until after I saw the movie.

Joe 29:59

Well, there's a there yeah, not it doesn't happen at Rivendell, though. He goes Oh, I don't know. It's after they leave and he splits up splits up, he splits off from them, he leaves them, and he goes to a council with the wizards. I'm pretty sure he says a wizards council. Yes. Okay. Gandalf goes to a wizards council. I don't know if there's mention. And to be honest, there's so much other book stories, like there's the unfinished tales and the lost tales, and there's all little bits of Tolkien's writing where he he does fill in some of these gaps and talk about like you know what was happening at this time with this character that's you know that is not in the story proper at the time. So I don't know, maybe they're maybe um Galadriel was there, but I thought it was a wizard's council they mentioned in the book.

Tom 30:45

I thought so too.

Joe 30:46

But yeah, they're just bringing everybody back. But I felt like we didn't need that whole beginning of with with like Frodo at the present like present day or whatever in at the beginning of Lord of the Rings, and then it's actually in between the in the Fellowship of the Ring because Right.

Jen 31:01

It's like Frodo's going outside to read, which is like right at the beginning of Fellowship when he first sees Gandalf. Yeah. It's literally like that morning.

Joe 31:10

The morning Yeah.

Jen 31:11

I have a confession to make that I realized for the f how many times have I seen the Fellowship of the Ring, right? Like I don't know a hundred. So he tells Frodo, don't let anybody come up to talk to me unless it's about the party. And on the door, it which it says in Fellowship, no admittance except on party business. Yeah. But I didn't understand that that meant like the birthday party. I I don't know what I always thought of. I thought like party, like like a person.

Tom 31:40

Oh wow.

Jen 31:41

Oh, like like like you're the party. I don't know. I just never put together that that was about like party business. His party. His birthday party, yeah. Yeah, I just I until this I was like, oh, a party business. I just never knew what that was.

Tom 31:54

That's not where I thought you were going with it. I thought you were going to be like you didn't realize it was like a play on words, and like Gandalf is a member of his adventuring party. Okay. And so like Gandalf is is there on that sort of party business.

Jen 32:10

Well, it doesn't say that in the flashback when he comes there.

Tom 32:13

No.

Jen 32:14

It's only on the day of the party.

unknown 32:16

Yeah.

Jen 32:16

But I don't know. I just thought it was like on party like business that we have as two parties. I just never got that that was about the birthday party.

Joe 32:23

Yes, it was birthday party business.

Jen 32:25

Now I do. It's like, oh, party business. Cut it out. We don't need it.

Joe 32:29

We didn't need this whole intro scene whatsoever.

Tom 32:32

Yeah, they did it, I think, because they were worried that even like that people wouldn't understand that it was a prequel. Like that that's why they put it in.

Joe 32:42

They wouldn't understand that Bilbo is younger. Yes. Um but Gandalf looks older.

Jen 32:48

They needed up more stuff. So they just put the almost three hours long.

Joe 32:53

No, they didn't need more stuff.

Jen 32:56

Because they were stretching the the the story of two films into three films, regardless of the fact that they didn't all need to be three hours long. Yes, yes. Exactly. They were probably like, okay, well, this one is only two hours and fifteen minutes, so what are we gonna put to stretch it out? Way too short. Call Elijah.

Tom 33:14

Yeah, I also do think there's a little bit of like, you know, redoing the Lord of the Rings prequel. We've gotta get like the star in it somehow, even though he's not gonna start at all because it's too. You have Gandalf. I know, but like I know. I'm talking from Fro means.

Jen 33:32

People would be in the crowd, like, where's Frodo?

Tom 33:35

Yeah.

Jen 33:35

No, Frodo Frodo's like a little he's got to be. Frodo's not even born yet. He's not even born yet. Yes. Frodo's not born yet. What do you mean? Where's Frodo? You gotta get Frodo in this movie. Frodo's that's the that's the executives watching the first cut. Where the fuck is Frodo?

Tom 33:52

You gotta explain to people where Frodo is.

Jen 33:53

Get him in there.

Joe 33:54

He's not bored. They're gonna be so confused. They actually did a testing. They did a test screening of this without that all beginning intro. And the number one question was where's Frodo? So I was like, I guess we gotta call up Elijah. Let's put all this, let's put Frodo in there. Um I noticed a lot of in this movie too, is they really, really put a lot of effort in connecting this to Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings, but in a way as if Lord of the Rings hasn't come out yet and they're setting it up. There's like a bunch of scenes like that in this movie, and I'm like, why are you setting up the movies that have already come out already? And everyone who's seen those movies is watching this movie.

Jen 34:40

Give me an example. What do you mean?

Joe 34:41

Oh, Jen, I have so many notes when I get to it. I'll I I I made a comment in here about it at some point. I've just got so many notes though, I can't I can't find it.

Jen 34:50

You better get started because I have like a like 50 notes as well.

Tom 34:54

So we're almost an hour in. We've barely spoken about the movie yet. Um we've well we've talked a lot about the movie. That's true, I guess. In certain ways.

Joe 35:03

Um we did. We talked about the uh we talked about the intro. That's about as far as we've gotten into it.

Tom 35:11

Um and and and and near the end, but that's it.

Joe 35:15

Yeah. I don't know. We just want to go off a list here of things I don't like about this movie. Um how a bunch of the dwarfs some of the dwarves look like dwarves and the other ones just look like small people.

Jen 35:24

Uh Keely is just a guy. And I understand why they did that because something's gonna come up with him later. But Thor has a has a prosthetic nose on, I think. Does he? I think so.

Tom 35:36

I think every dwarf except for Keely is wearing prosthetic uh a prosthetic torso.

Joe 35:42

Some of them are more muscular, some of them are fatter, and then some of them are very, very prosthetic torso or just like heavy extra extra jackets underneath or something.

Tom 35:51

No, yes, it's padding, it's padding. Um so I'm gonna go now that you've now that you brought this up. Before the movie came out, Entertainment Weekly did a big spread, big write-up on the movie, right? I was so excited. I love I love Entertainment Weekly. And I'm going through, and they're they're highlighting all the different dwarves, and like, this is this dwarf's backstory, this is this, and I was like, oh no. So even before the movie came out, after you name the dwarves, I don't give a shit about any individual dwarf.

Joe 36:25

No, and you know that bombers the fat one. The fat one, right? Because they constantly talk about talk about how he's fat, and they don't talk about how he's fat at all in the movie. So come on. What do you mean?

Tom 36:38

He just is fat.

Jen 36:40

There's a bunch of fat jokes, though. Are there? There's at least one that I could think of where he's like about to break the chair and they throw a sausage and he catches it, and the chair breaks.

Joe 36:48

Yeah, but they don't they don't ever call him fat because we can't do that.

Jen 36:51

Oh, okay. Just laugh at his fatness.

Tom 36:53

You just laugh at his fatness.

Jen 36:54

Um wait, I know Balin and Glowen because those are Gimli's relations. Right.

Tom 37:00

Like Glowen's his uncle or Gloen's uncle. Gowen's his father.

Joe 37:03

Oh, father, father, sorry.

Jen 37:04

Balin's his uncle.

Tom 37:05

Yeah, balance in the balance the one in his grave therein. And in um, but like um, yeah, I I I was like, if the movie is spending any time trying to get us to care about any individual dwarf that is not Thorin, the movie is wasting its time. We shouldn't care. I shouldn't even know these actors' names. None of them should be like they should all be in the end credits. They're just guys. That's what the story should be. I shouldn't care about any of them. They're not gonna be stars. And the other thing that bothered me is that when they cast uh Richard Armor Towers, I think, right, as as Thorin, um, they talked about how they wanted to make sure that he was sexy. And I was like, what in the ever-living fuck are you talking about?

Jen 37:55

Thorne is the worst in this movie.

Joe 37:57

I think that Thorin's a an asshole. Thorin's an asshole. He should be. Thorin's awful.

Jen 38:05

But Thorin in the book is not as big of a dick as a big thing.

Joe 38:09

He's a little bit of a dick in the books, but more of just like but not like not like this Thorne.

Jen 38:15

He's not like super dramatic and cool.

Joe 38:19

He's very emo, this Thorin.

Jen 38:21

Yes.

Joe 38:22

He's all brood, he's like one of the brooding uh kids from South Park. That's too much.

Tom 38:28

And like to me, Thorne should, and and maybe this is a little bit influenced by the cartoon as well, but Thorne should be old. Like these guys are all like kind of past their prime and like desperate enough that they're gonna use this this guy as the 14th member of their party. They shouldn't be like young, cool, fighting guy. No, come on. Yeah, they're like men with all homes.

Joe 38:53

Well, they've gotten that I mean, Tom, we're talking about they they've gotten the whole tone of the movie wrong. They tried to make it more like Lord of the Rings. Yeah, instead of leaning into the kind of uh I guess non-serious, youthful story, fairy tale story type of vibe that the that the book has. And I think that's where they really miss the mark. This is too brooding and serious, and they keep and Jedi, you know, you asked me for an example about how they feel like they're just setting up the Lord of the Rings, is they keep trying to connect it all to some to the bigger story of like this is all connected, and like there's all these other things going on that are bad happening. And I was like, no, no, it's not, it's the Hobbit. They're just going on a trip to go get their gold back, and they're making it more like, oh, you know, there's Erebor and the the uh the dwarfs, the seven dwarfs like what is this? Thorne met with the seven kingdoms and they wouldn't come and help them on this mission. I'm like, that's not what happens, right? It's just these guys all got together. We're like, we want to go get our mountain back, right? It's not that they tried to get like rally troops and nobody wanted to. These guys were more like, we want our treasure. They're very greedy in the story.

Tom 40:13

They are, and they're also like they're nomadic because their home has been taken away from them. And I I feel like there's like a there's a there's I don't know, yeah. It it's I think you you you have to nail on the head here. Like the tone is just so so like there's a lightness to it. Like again, going back to the scene that if you were watching YouTube, the scene that we have like Bilbo running out of his house after the party, I'm going on an adventure, whatever. That that scene sticks out like a store sore thumb in this movie because it's it's light and he seems excited and it's fun. And there that should that should even the scene with the trolls or whatever, at any point of danger, it's not like it's not grave danger, it's just danger for these 14 shrubs.

Joe 41:03

Like I don't know. Yeah. Alright, 40 minutes, they leave Bag End. Finally. And then we get all the orcs who are stalking them, which is this whole thing, this is where I was just like, dumb. What the this is so fucking like what are they doing?

Jen 41:19

So we're gonna find out that like like why they're doing this, or is it because Azog?

Joe 41:24

Yeah, Azog is uh wants revenge.

Jen 41:27

Potentially the worst thing I've ever seen in a movie. Like, why does he look so bad?

Tom 41:33

Because there was a guy who played Azog live, and then in post, he's like, oh, he's not scary enough. So they got a different guy to do motion capture and insert him over the guy who played Azog in the in the f in the live footage.

Jen 41:46

Who played him? Is it anybody or just like a style?

Tom 41:49

No, yeah, I don't know who I don't remember the actor's name.

Jen 41:52

Every orc in this movie is bad. I don't know why they didn't use any practical effects on the orcs, but especially Azog, he looks so bad. I hate every time he comes on screen, I'm mad. I'm like I'm thinking of Lord of the Rings, how good everything looked. Like all the practical makeup, even that orc in Return of the King with like the weird head.

Joe 42:13

Yeah.

Jen 42:14

Like that's real. Madness. It's like a compute, it's like a video game that they just like put into a movie. Oh, I know him. He's Crixus and the Spartacus. I want to see the footage, because how bad could it have been?

Joe 42:28

Was he the original person?

Tom 42:30

It's not No, I don't believe he was. I believe Manu played the motion capture did a motion capture for like No, it's not that guy's fault.

Joe 42:40

No, that they wrote this whole story into it.

Jen 42:42

Um No, I mean, um it's not his fault. It looks awful either. I mean, it's his acting is fine, but I just can't even look at the character. It's like a smooth nothing.

Joe 42:52

Yeah.

Jen 42:53

And the I don't know, I just can't plus which I also read when from our research that that's people didn't like the the frame rate, and this is different to it. The whole movie. I'm just looking at this movie, I'm like, why does this look so bad? Is it the lighting? Like, what is it?

Tom 43:08

They double the frame rate.

Jen 43:09

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 43:10

It's 48 frame frames per second.

Jen 43:12

Uh why would they do that?

Tom 43:13

Because it it apparently looks better when you uh when you watch it in 3D, which is part of the reason it made a billion, because they were able to sell the tickets for double the price.

Jen 43:23

But it's it's looks bad. It just doesn't look good. It looks like yeah, it looks like a like a TV show or something of the Lord of the Ring. Even when you're in Rivendell, I'm like, okay, this should look like it just has something's off about it.

Joe 43:35

Yeah. Well, I guess that didn't I didn't notice that, and I guess because I was so much angrier about other things. Um yeah, Azog, this whole storyline, it get it out. I don't why? I don't need this. We don't need this. I mean, Azog, I think, is mentioned in the Hobbit as like the orc that killed the that his father, Thorne's father, and that's it. He just mentions it. But there's no there's there's They're not being stalked by orcs for the whole entire movie.

Tom 44:03

Well, uh, I would say this.

Joe 44:04

Are they trying to create, I guess, like a sense of urgency?

Tom 44:08

There there's a lot of orc attack. Like in the books, it's just like, oh, I guess there's orcs everywhere.

Jen 44:13

So I guess they were like, oh, we'll we'll Well the same orcs that they got away from just follow them into the woods at the end.

unknown 44:20

Yeah.

Jen 44:20

They just only the encounter the orange. And then the wargs, they get on the wargs and they and they chase them out of the mountain.

Joe 44:27

Yeah. That's all.

Jen 44:28

Like a separate it's not a separate Well, all those orcs, I guess, are dead. I don't know.

Joe 44:33

Well, they're we're getting into like the whole orc goblin thing too, which was that bothers me.

Jen 44:39

And that's in Lord of the Rings, too. That they're like interchangeable words, orcs and goblins.

Joe 44:43

Yeah, that was the whole thing. And there's actually a I don't know if it's in this version. There's like a note in the beginning of one like some of the books about orcs and goblins.

Tom 44:54

Not the same thing.

Jen 44:55

But they use their interchangeably in the Lord of the Rings, too. And in the in the closed captioning of this, it says orcs make this noise, and then goblins make this noise. And I'm like, who they're both. Like it's they call them, they call them both the same.

Joe 45:09

In the a little like preface in the book, it says orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places, but is usually translated goblin or hobgoblin for the larger kind. Orc is the hobbits form of the name given at that time to these creatures and is not connected at all with our orc, orc applied to sea animals or dolphins. So it's the same thing. There's no different the same thing.

Jen 45:34

Orcs and goblins are the same.

Joe 45:35

Orcs and goblins are the same. It's just another name for them. Like, you know, this culture calls them orcs, and this other culture calls goblins.

Jen 45:42

Even when Frodo pulls the sword out in fellowship and they're like, goblins. And I'm like, you just told me it glows when orcs come. This is the same. Why don't you just use the same word throughout? I don't understand.

Joe 45:53

Well, I think that was Peter Jackson's fault when in Lord of the Rings, which was I remember one of the things I disliked about Lord of the Rings. Like they're not they're not different things. They just used a different word.

Jen 46:02

Right. But but in the same scene, they'll say orcs and goblins.

Joe 46:05

Like if they're like, they're clearly two different things because they look different. No, they're not. No, I mean in the movies, the orcs and the goblins look different.

Jen 46:13

What are the goblins then?

Joe 46:15

The goblins are the ones in the mountain.

Jen 46:17

That's those aren't orcs. I thought those were orcs, and then the urukai are the big ones.

Joe 46:22

Those are like the Those are just like a clan or a breed of goblinslash orc. That's all.

Jen 46:28

No, the orcs are the orcs attack them with the cave troll because that's when the sword glows blue, and the sword's supposed to glow blue when the orcs come in the. What book are you talking about? I'm talking about fellowship now. You said you said Yeah. So wait, goblins and goblins and orcs are different in this movie, you're saying?

Tom 46:46

So here's the thing right now.

Jen 46:48

But they're not different.

Tom 46:49

They're not different. So he in the Hobbit, I was I was just kind of reading up on what we were talking. So in the Hobbit, he uses goblins more, right? He doesn't really say orcs. This should Tolkien, right? And then he changes it to orc for the Lord of the Rings for the most part, and kind of retro, it's another kind of uh like retcon. Goblins are like what hobbits call orcs. So they're all orcs, yeah, but like a hobbit calls it a goblin. And since Bilbo is the main character of the hobbit, that's why he says there's goblins in the mountain.

unknown 47:21

Yes.

Joe 47:22

No, I'm saying in this movie, the orcs that are chasing them look different than the goblins in the mountain. They look clearly like they're two different kinds of species.

Jen 47:30

Well, they're they're they're I don't think they're supposed to I mean, unless they just like the goblins in the mountain look different because they live in the mountain, and these goblins it's like, you know, these humans look different than the ones that live over here. But then the they're both like I was saying, they'll say like orcs. Orcs. Yeah. Orcs are orcs grown or whatever. And then like two seconds later it'll say like goblin shrieks. And I'm like, what the what? Just use the same word. I don't know. Whatever. But yes, okay. Fine. They're all orcs.

Joe 47:59

What? Radagast.

Jen 48:00

What am I thinking about?

Joe 48:01

Why is what are we doing with Radagas? And why does he have shit, bird shit in his hair? Like, can't this fucking guy not have bird shit in his hair?

Jen 48:09

Saruman does not like him. He's embarrassing.

Tom 48:13

Why is he embarrassing? He can't just be like a guy who likes animals. He has to be like a For Saruman.

Jen 48:19

He's embarrassing to Saruman.

Tom 48:20

No, I'm saying he is embarrassing. He's a mess. Why does he have bird shit in his hair?

Joe 48:26

He keeps the battery. The entire movie he has it's not even like you, oh, the first scene he has bird shit in his hair and he's got and then he cleans it out. No, he just keeps it in his hair all the time.

Jen 48:38

He doesn't shower.

Joe 48:40

I guess it's not.

Tom 48:42

I don't explain.

Jen 48:43

Well, he doesn't bathe, whatever. He doesn't bathe.

Joe 48:46

Get rid of sorry, Radagast, you gotta go. Get out of this movie. Radagast. Get out of here. We're Radagast. Get out of here. Radagast. Well, how are we gonna know that the Dole Goldor is is um Sauron? Sauron sorry, Sauron, because again, we've got it. Here we go. We've gotta set up Lord of the Rings because Sauron. Sauron, right? Yeah, Sauron.

Jen 49:06

But he raised the witch king from his tomb. Yeah, yeah. So getting out here. And then he dropped his sword and just left it somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, who gave it to him? I forgot Radagas got it, but he got it from from that from Dol Guldur, which is a place I've never heard of. Okay.

Joe 49:21

It's mentioned in the book, and I think, right, because so this like this sort of happens in the book, but like this is like one of Gandalf's trips, right? He goes away and he him and his the wizard, he goes, meets with the wizards, and then they go defeat the necromancer. He mentions that, Gandalf and the Hobbit. Yes, but that's Sauron. Yes, Sauron is the necromancer.

Jen 49:40

But Sar is Saruman still good at this point?

Joe 49:42

I don't know. He doesn't sound like he doesn't seem like he's good. He's shutting down everything everyone's saying. He's like, no, no, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. It's nothing.

Jen 49:48

It's just uh Saruman's talking and nobody Galadrio and Gandalf are over here having a full conversation, not listening to a word Saurumon is saying.

Joe 50:00

I mean, this is stuff I that's like actually happening in the side story. That's but like we don't we don't need it. Get rid of it. I don't need this. Maybe that part was cool with the you know mentioning of Sauron and stuff, but well, not mentioning Sauron, but the necromancer part. Um I'm gonna assume in these later movies that we're gonna see Gandalf go there and fight the necromancer. Maybe Sarah Saruman 2 and Radagast, I'm gonna guess. They're all gonna fight the necromancer.

Jen 50:27

Oh, okay, okay.

Joe 50:28

That's I'm I'm pretty sure I have no idea, but my guess is that's gonna happen in one of these movies.

Jen 50:33

How do they beat him? Is he he doesn't have a body, right? Like what is he? Like a channel. I don't know.

Joe 50:38

They don't they don't talk about it. You don't find out.

Jen 50:42

We don't know. He's just like a fire eye going like this. I don't know.

Joe 50:46

No, he's not well, not as the necromancer, but um I'm gonna guess he looks like some sort of undead creature or something. And then um possessing a dead body.

Tom 50:56

Memory serves the necromancer is a voice by someone who is a different character in these movies.

Joe 51:05

Davies type thing with uh tree beard.

Tom 51:07

Yep.

Joe 51:08

Well, isn't John Reese Davies also smog? SmackDown.

Jen 51:11

No, but a decumberbatch is.

Joe 51:13

Oh, but a decumberbatch. That's right, that's right, that's right. Um, getting ahead of ourselves, though. Um, I have a note here. Why are the trolls acting like the three stooges?

Tom 51:24

They're doing like that in the book.

Joe 51:27

No, I know that, but like they're literally hitting each other and one's gotta hide. He's like, hey, boss. It's like almost like, hey boss, what do you mean?

Tom 51:33

Like here's another example. The the three three the three uh trolls are played by three of the dwarves. I don't know which ones, because they're they're meaningless. I feel bad for these actors, but they're meaningless to me. And I refuse to acknowledge them. Yeah, but three of the dwarves play the three. Oh, you mean you don't care about that? Okay, yeah.

Jen 51:54

Uh yeah, they don't care about you, Tom.

Joe 51:57

So fair is fair. Bert, Tom, and Bill. I I just love that the names are the troll. William Troll, Bert Troll, and Tom Troll. And uh he he came up Tolkien with all these cool names for the dwarves and Gandalf and you know, uh Bilbo and all of these, and then it's just Bert, Tom, and Bill. They these gotta be people that he knew. Right, I feel the same way.

Tom 52:23

Like these are guys that he went to school with, you know? All right, yeah. It's a bunch of ancient legendary uh creatures and then three chimney sweeps.

Joe 52:34

Yeah. Uh can we stop talking about it and just and in this episode? No, we've got a lot more to talk about.

Jen 52:39

Hey, no. Where are we up to? Are we even going? Oh, I have a note. Merkwood is a slur. Like they call it Merkwood. It's not really the name of it.

Joe 52:51

I don't know. It's on it's on the map.

Jen 52:53

They said No, they said that in the movie that the it's like the Greenwood and they're calling it Merkwood because it's getting murky or something like that.

Joe 53:00

Is that what the dwarves call murkwood? It's their I don't know.

Jen 53:03

It's like that's like a like a mean way to refer to a place. I think that's a good thing.

Joe 53:08

Yeah, we have we had to throw in all that backstory about the dwarves and elves not liking each other and Yeah, I thought it was funny that like the change in this movie is that the dwarves don't help.

Jen 53:18

I mean the elves don't help. The elves don't help.

Joe 53:21

Yeah. They just stare they just come and watch and stare at it. Dramatically watch. Yeah, and dramatically watch from a distance. Which again, it's a flashback. You need to convey it.

Jen 53:30

Also, like Thorin is not in the mountain when Smog comes. That's why he's alive. But fine, we can put him there.

Joe 53:38

Yeah, well, everything's gotta be much more dramatic. Um because what you know, yeah, you have to everything has to be personal. Everything seems personal with Thorne in this.

Jen 53:50

And everybody knows who he is.

Joe 53:52

Yes, the goblin king knows who he is. He's like Thorne, like, oh, I didn't see you back there, Thorne. Yeah, well, well, well. The Goblin King says so. If it isn't Thorne Oakenshield, some of the dialogue's pretty bad in this. I'm sorry.

Jen 54:11

I wait, wait. We have to go back because I thought that Galadriel.

Tom 54:17

Sorry.

Jen 54:17

I thought Galadrio was gonna kiss Gandalf. When she fixed his hair, I was like, what's happening right now? I was scared. Oh my god.

Joe 54:31

Oh boy. I have a uh a funny line that I have written down here. I I don't know. I like I was looking for anything when they go to Rivendell and they're eating and they're talking about like, you know, where's the meat? And like elves, I guess, are vegan. Um but I can't one of them goes, have they got any chips or something like that? It's just like in the background.

Jen 54:53

But that's like kids, that's what's the problem is. It's like too silly a part, and then it's supposed to be like super dramatic. It does, and then it's scary.

Joe 55:03

Yes, exactly. I think they needed to pick one, yeah, pick one tone and stick with it.

Jen 55:08

Yeah, preferably the. Like a couple of things with like Gimli and Legolas, but not like this.

Tom 55:17

There's very specifically Yeah, yeah, and then and the and the Hobbs. Mary and Pippin can be very funny, but like Yeah, I guess. Um I will okay, so here we go. We've been comparing this movie uh very much unfavorably to the Hobbit cartoon. Um I do like that elves don't look like good goblins, which is what they look like in the Hobbit cartoon. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe 55:42

Well they also have like, doesn't the king have like a star crown, like Star Crown or something?

Tom 55:46

Yeah, it's floating above them, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Um so I like that they're I like I like movie elves.

Joe 55:53

So they're but those only the wood elves because Elrond doesn't look like that.

Tom 55:57

Elrond looks like that. Yeah, he does.

Joe 55:59

He's does he in the cartoon?

Tom 56:00

Yeah.

Joe 56:01

I thought he looked okay.

Tom 56:03

He's the one with the moon and the he's the one with the that that that star crown where he's Oh, yeah. He has the map and he shows them, you know, in the moon runes. Yeah.

Joe 56:12

The moon runes.

Jen 56:13

That's my favorite thing in the movie, moon runes.

Tom 56:15

That's your Lord of the Rings cover band. Slim pickens, but yeah.

Joe 56:23

So I I was as I was saying before, right, how they're trying, like everything's they're making this much bigger, this story than it really is, and like trying to connect it to like the you know, the Lord of the Rings more. And it's it's like everybody in the movie knows it too, except for like Frodo. Right? They all know that this is like much. Sorry, Bilbo.

Tom 56:45

Everybody except legitimately confused me for a second.

Joe 56:48

Yeah, sorry. Well, Frodo is in this movie, so I know.

Tom 56:51

That's what I'm like, well, why should Frodo know? He doesn't even know what anything is.

Joe 56:54

Um Yeah, when when in reality, really only Gandalf should be the one who knows who really knows that. Right but it's like everybody knows it's it's it's they're not just going on an adventure. This has bigger implications for everybody, which is too heavy.

Tom 57:10

It is like when you read when you read The Hobbit, the Hobbit builds, you know, to a point where like, you know, it starts out where it's like a guy leaves his house with like and he goes on an adventure, and like it ends with like there's a dragon, and there's spoiler alert, a battle with five armies, and it's like this huge build to that, not like setting the stakes right now that you know there's gonna be this epic battle to to come because it's the only way things like this resolve.

Joe 57:38

Yeah, and when they do meet um that the meeting in Rivendell with El Rond and Galadriel shows up and Saruman shows up, this is one of those scenes where they're setting up the Lord of the Rings movies, yeah. Where they're really connect trying to connect it to the movies again, as if those movies haven't come out yet and they're like hyping them up.

Tom 57:56

Right, right. Samuel Jackson's talking about the Avengers initiative.

Joe 58:00

Yes, it's just really weird um that it that they that they was kind of written that way. Uh I mean things that I like, the Stone Giants, that was so cool when they did the Stone Giants. I really like that. There you go. They made sure to put those guys in. Um and I don't want to uh jump to the end yet, but there's another part towards the end that I like, but then it got ruined, so it was almost good. Did it wasn't one thing about the stone giants, just a question. Was it me or did it look like the stone giants and and everything all the rocks that they threw moved in slow motion?

Jen 58:37

Well, they were so big.

Joe 58:39

But the rocks that they threw, they looked they would move very slow, like you'd see them like this.

Jen 58:45

Yeah.

Joe 58:46

But the the dwarves and Bilbo were all moving in regular speed.

Jen 58:51

I don't know.

Tom 58:52

I didn't notice the rocks that looked slowly.

Joe 58:54

Yes, they were. It looked very weird. I believe you were. Yeah, it it looked weird.

Jen 58:59

Are the stone giants like in that part of the book?

Joe 59:02

Yeah. They see them off in the street.

Jen 59:04

Oh, yeah. They don't like they're not like on the stone giant.

Joe 59:07

No, well, they can't, you know, there can't ever be, you know, there always has to be something exciting and threatening going on. Yeah, they they're just like in the distance, I think, throwing stones, and they're like, oh, we gotta get, you know, we gotta get into shelter.

Jen 59:20

Okay.

Joe 59:21

Um yeah, I didn't mind it. I was happy to see the stone giants fine, you know, let's make it. I feel like that's another another problem with the movie is all the sequences like that are just too long. They just go a little bit too long. Right. Like cut off, you know, if the sequence is four minutes, make it three and a half minutes. It would have been, you know, I just feel like it just you know.

Jen 59:42

Like the the scene with the orc goblins, which orc goblins, Sean? In the mountain.

Joe 59:50

Okay.

Jen 59:50

It's like this isn't the climax of the movie. It was like huge. And I'm like, there's another c there's another climax. This is not the climax. There's another one coming.

Joe 1:00:00

Yes, I thought I thought so too, and I forgot about that.

Jen 1:00:04

This half an hour left. Like, what's going on?

Tom 1:00:06

Yeah, I I feel like that's the equivalent of like uh the minds of Moria. And you're like, Yes, yeah.

Jen 1:00:13

But there's a lot of time, there's more time to come down after the minds of Moria.

Tom 1:00:17

But like you're in that and you're like, this has gotta be the end. You're like, oh no, there's another like half an hour, 40 minutes after this movie.

Joe 1:00:23

And that part drags on too long, too. Again, that's another scene.

Jen 1:00:27

Nothing drags in that movie. It's perfect from beginning to end.

Joe 1:00:30

Which part?

Jen 1:00:31

Oh, wait, where are you? What are you talking about?

Joe 1:00:33

I'm talking about this movie, the end, the end sequence. The end sequence is too long.

Jen 1:00:39

Yes, it is.

Joe 1:00:40

Like you said, there's an extra 30 minutes left in the movie. You're like, what? Wait a second. Isn't this supposed to be the end? And then it just goes on for 30 minutes. Um I and I liked, you know, I was just watching it again last night. I like, I was enjoying the Escape from the Mountain, you know, the whole chase outside. That maybe was the one sequence I didn't think was too long. And I was actually getting into it, and I was like, wow, you know what? This is actually pretty cool. Okay, I like that they did this. I like the uh, you know, all the the they used almost every like action movie trope thing that could fit in there with like the bridges and then you know, things falling, and then them like grabbing the ladder, you know, when he puts down the ladder to go across and the the what's it called, seesaws back and forth. And I was like, okay, this it's a bit much, but I'm enjoying it.

Jen 1:01:28

When he runs up, when Gandalf runs up to face the Goblin King, there's like a shot and it's like Mortal Kombat. It's just like Gandolf here and the Goblin King here, they're just like standing on a like a bridge or whatever. It's like this is weird.

Joe 1:01:42

And then yeah, and it was good, and then that ending uh killed it a bit for me.

Jen 1:01:48

The ending of the movie or the ending of that scene?

Joe 1:01:50

No, the ending of the movie.

Jen 1:01:51

Okay.

Joe 1:01:52

That's like basically the next scene.

Jen 1:01:53

Yeah, I'm mad that the Eagles didn't talk.

Joe 1:01:56

Well, maybe they'll talk in the beginning. Oh, I don't know, in the next movie.

Jen 1:02:00

I don't think so. If they didn't talk in this movie, I don't think they're gonna talk.

Joe 1:02:04

They didn't want to pay people to maybe they didn't want to pay the eagles more money, Jen, because if the eagles talk, they'd have to pay the book.

Jen 1:02:11

Right, then they have to get be in the screen actors guild, right?

Joe 1:02:14

Yeah. And they're not ready to let eagles into screen the screen actors guild yet.

Tom 1:02:18

It does raise the question, will the thrush talk in the in the in the next film?

Joe 1:02:23

And the raven. There's ravens that talk in this book at the end. Right. Old Croc or Croc's son, I can't remember who it was.

Jen 1:02:30

No birds are allowed to speak.

Joe 1:02:35

Uh um so just getting back to so the mountain cool, you know, they they changed the separation of Bilbo and the dwarves a little bit, which is fine. I uh it I it was nice because they were getting to the Gollum part earlier, but I I thought they was like, okay, that's a move to like condense it, but yeah.

Jen 1:02:57

Well they were also able to cut back and forth between Bilbo and the Dwarves. Yes. Because it in the book, the dwarves are out and he's still with Gollum.

Joe 1:03:06

Yes.

Jen 1:03:06

So not they're not they wouldn't have been doing anything. So it's changing away for them to still be doing something at the time.

Joe 1:03:13

They would have interspersed Gollum, the the Riddles in the Dark with the Escape, which would have been really weird because you're going from like super fast action sequence to then and like breaking away from that to go to like people talk telling riddles to each other.

Tom 1:03:29

Tenser and tenser.

Joe 1:03:31

Yeah, it wouldn't have fit, it wouldn't, it wouldn't have edited well, I think, together. The one thing that they did change though about the Riddles in the Dark that that irked me a little bit was the ring part.

Tom 1:03:43

Yeah.

Joe 1:03:44

When he find when Gollum loses, and he's like, okay, I gotta show you where you are. He's like, but wait, I gotta go get my birthday present first before we go. They changed that. And right, he doesn't eat he he immediately he um No, he doesn't realize it's gone until later.

Jen 1:03:59

He drops it right in front of Bilbo, falls out of his lawyer.

Joe 1:04:02

No, no, I'm talking about when Bilbo wins the riddles, wins the riddle game. Oh Gollum, he doesn't go back to go get his to go get his precious oh right, right.

Jen 1:04:12

He just realizes it.

Joe 1:04:13

He just realizes it. And of course they had to do a uh fall down ring in the air onto the finger thing.

Jen 1:04:22

Yeah, same way. Same way.

Joe 1:04:24

Come on.

Jen 1:04:25

Like what I didn't like that I get it, like uh Gollum's not a good person, but he drops the ring, Bilbo sees him drop it, and Bilbo just picks it up and steals it, basically. Like he steals it in the book, but like he finds it in the cave. He doesn't steal it in the book.

Tom 1:04:43

He finds it.

Jen 1:04:44

He picks it up, and then but by the time he realizes that it's his, it's like, well, I'm not gonna give it back to this guy.

Joe 1:04:49

Like he wants to eat it.

Jen 1:04:51

But but in this, he just sees him drop it and then he picks it up and takes it.

Joe 1:04:55

Yeah, it's it's much more like immediately corruptible.

Jen 1:04:59

Yeah.

Joe 1:04:59

But he lets him he lets him live.

Jen 1:05:01

Um Yeah, well, he has to, Joe, because he's in he's in the Lord of the Rings.

Joe 1:05:06

Yes, yes. Well, we had to even put the notion that he might kill him in there as if like as if it was if that that built up any suspense at all for anybody. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Jen 1:05:15

Dan reminded me that there's like that a line in Fellowship where it's like Frodo says, I wish uh it's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance. And Gandalf's like, petty is what stayed Bilbo's hand.

Joe 1:05:27

Yes. And Gareth says something in this line. It's he's like being a hero is not about who you kill, it's like about having who you'll kill us.

Jen 1:05:36

Maybe you'll hear that later. Maybe you'll hear that later, Joe. Just saying. Um, but I also d it made me mad that they didn't try to replicate the scene in the beginning of Fellowship where you see Bilbo picking up the ring.

Tom 1:05:49

Oh right.

Jen 1:05:50

They just it would I was like, Oh, I thought they would try to like make it look the same. I don't know.

Joe 1:05:54

That was not that wasn't a great scene.

Jen 1:05:56

No, it was just like him on the ground and he picks up the ring.

Joe 1:05:59

And he's like, Oh

Jen 1:06:00

Oh, what's this? Actually, that had a better tone of the Hobbit than uh than this movie. It didn't have to be that exactly, but if they if the like the physical part of it was the same, I think that would have been cool. But but they didn't do that at all. But whatever.

Joe 1:06:13

Oh, the other thing I wanted to say too, and this is this is just this goes for the Lord of the Rings, probably even more so. And I remember like when first watching The Lord The Fellowship, I was like, wait, what's going on? When they put on the ring in it, and like this this happens more again in Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring. Um, he's like in this horrible, evil side dimension, it almost seems like worse than the upside down. That's how the that's how the movie makes it seem like. And I'm like, they never say there's never any description of that like that being like that in the books at all. Yeah.

Jen 1:06:44

Well, I guess it was just a way to indicate that he was it was very dramatic. I don't know, yeah.

Joe 1:06:50

Like it's very windy and it's all blackish and shadowy.

Jen 1:06:53

Shadowy, yeah.

Joe 1:06:54

I was like, they never that's never described at all. I don't think anywhere in the books, but um maybe maybe after wearing it for a much longer time, but um, what else don't we like about this movie?

Jen 1:07:05

Um Thorin is not this cool, I wrote. Let's make Thorin the absolute worst.

Joe 1:07:14

Yeah. He's just uh he's like a moody jerk.

Jen 1:07:18

And then at the end they gave you that, oh I was all I was a hundred percent wrong. Oh, got us, Thorin.

Joe 1:07:25

Yeah. Uh Gandalf using the flaming pine cones. I was happy about that. That's fun. That's from the book. What I really thought should have happened at the end of this movie, and they could have saved the entire series potentially, is kill Azog at the end. How about that be the end? I thought he was gonna die. I was like, oh wait, do they kill him here? I was like, oh, I think he might be, I think he might die. And I'm like, oh fucking fuck no. We're gonna have a fake out death instead of Thorin.

Jen 1:07:53

Yeah, Thorin's dead, guys. Do you believe that? He's dead at the end, at the first in the first movie of a trilogy that's about him, he died. They give him a little Ned Stark.

Joe 1:08:05

Oh yeah. Thorin coming, you know, running down the tree. I think I think the quote I have here, um this Thorin shot of him walking down the tree after Isaac is absurdly awesome. Like I was torn between, like, oh, this is cool, but it's fucking terrible at the same time.

Jen 1:08:26

There Thorin should be dead. There's many times in this movie where like the dwarves just fall like 500 feet and bang into rocks and roll over each other. I'm fine with that.

Joe 1:08:37

I'm totally fine with that. They're dwarves, they're sturdy creatures, you know. They're used to uh, you know, rocks and things.

Jen 1:08:47

Okay.

Joe 1:08:48

They're used to rocks hitting them.

Jen 1:08:50

He got smashed in the face with like a morning star or whatever it is.

Joe 1:08:54

Well, no, I don't think that was his face. I think it got him in the chest.

Jen 1:08:57

Oh, okay.

Tom 1:08:58

I think his chest we established an hour and a half ago has a lot of padding in it.

Joe 1:09:03

Yes. They could have killed Azok here at the end of the movie, and I think let's be done with it. The fact that they're dragging that out, I don't even know how that resolves itself. I'm guessing he's part of the Battle of the Five Armies, and then Thorne's gonna kill he's gonna kill Thor. They're gonna kill each other.

Tom 1:09:18

I th I think that's exactly right. Like I said before, uh the orcs like they they want like the orcs that are attacking them in the woods are like it's the same, like there's a reason that the orcs are around all the time, and it's not just that they're orcs or whatever. It's this guy, and so yeah, I think uh Azog is is a a big bad for the series.

Joe 1:09:37

Bad bad move. I mean, I'm saying these are these are all bad decisions, but the movie made a billion dollars, so I guess what do I know?

Jen 1:09:44

What did the second two movies make?

Joe 1:09:46

I don't know. I don't I don't have it up in front of me. Less? I'm gonna say they made less, but I don't know. Well we d we didn't pay for for tickets, but yeah, I definitely did not pay for tickets for those movies, so nine 999. They you know I saw there were extended uh versions of these, and I was like, why would anybody extended? Yeah, I almost turned on the extended version. Um The Desolation of Smaug is the second Smaug, sorry, Smaug.

Jen 1:10:13

Smaug.

Joe 1:10:14

Smaug. Um no, this one made just under a billion. It didn't make quite as much. 960 million, that's all. Okay. And it actually grows significantly less in the US than uh it was it was about 260 milli million, and I think it was over 300 million in uh the first movie.

Tom 1:10:36

There is a scene in the second movie that I think is legitimately great.

Jen 1:10:41

Okay and don't tell us which one it is.

Joe 1:10:43

No, we'll have to try to guess this one. Yeah, I mean the third movie made almost uh made less. Nine uh nine hundred and sixty-two million, so a little bit less. So that each movie made a little bit less.

Jen 1:10:54

They made a lot.

Joe 1:10:55

But they still made a ton of money.

Jen 1:10:56

Yeah.

Tom 1:10:57

Yeah.

Jen 1:10:58

How uh how far apart did they come out from each other? A year?

Tom 1:11:02

Yeah, they were all filmed at the same time. Yeah. They were filmed some like all at the same time. It was like a 260 some odd day stream.

Joe 1:11:11

Yeah. Do we want to go into our um uh to our ratings, or is there more that is there more to talk about?

Tom 1:11:18

I'm I feel I feel like uh I feel like we can wrap it up here.

Jen 1:11:22

Yeah, we have two more uh two more of these. Three more hours of talking about the these two more movies.

Tom 1:11:29

Yeah.

Jen 1:11:30

Um I think people are gonna be really shocked.

Tom 1:11:33

No, they won't.

Jen 1:11:34

Um I have a rating.

Joe 1:11:36

I was I was distraught when I was watching this movie. I was I would I kept looking to see how much time was left in it, and I was just like, is it over yet? And then we get into like, you know, you're like, oh okay, next part's, you know, this should be almost over because of this is next. And you're like, oh no, no, they're adding a whole nother thing in there. Um, I'm gonna give this a half of a star. We can't give it zero, right? It's a half a star of the lowest we can give it. You can give it zero stars if you think it's I'm not gonna give it zero, I'm gonna give it a half a star. I will not watch this movie ever again.

Tom 1:12:08

Yeah.

Joe 1:12:09

I was I don't I don't care. I don't like it at all. No, sir. I don't like it. Well sir, I don't like it.

Tom 1:12:15

That is the lowest rating we've had. Zero or half I'm giving it a half.

Jen 1:12:20

Anything. Okay.

Tom 1:12:23

I actively dislike this movie. I think Brendan rated episode six of uh season one higher than that.

Joe 1:12:29

This isn't even entertained. Like the only time I I would I would get into some there was only a few moments where I was actually like enjoying like and forgot how much I hated the movie. And that was like I said, the the escaping of the the mountains, the whole chase scene. I was I was engaged in that. Um The Riddles in the Dark, I was engaged in as well. But otherwise, I just thought about like how much I was I was disliking my experience of watching this movie.

Tom 1:12:58

Wow, all right. Um I dislike it not as much as Joe. Um but I don't like this movie. I don't think it's a good movie. I am going to give it um one one and a half stars. Okay. I think it's a it is a to my mind a bad movie, but it's not it's not it's it's it's not atrociously bad.

Jen 1:13:22

Yeah, I mean I I have a lot of notes. I didn't think it looked good. I thought the CGI was terrible and it was too long. But there've definitely been worse movies out there. I mean Yeah, I'm not saying the Yeah. So I'm gonna give it a a two.

Joe 1:13:41

Okay.

Jen 1:13:41

But yeah, I don't I there's not much about it that I like.

Joe 1:13:44

So equivalent this is equivalent to last week's War of the Worlds then for you as well.

Jen 1:13:48

Yeah, I guess so.

Joe 1:13:50

Okay.

Jen 1:13:51

Yeah, like it it's a I can see the the qualit like even though I don't like the CGI, I don't like the way the frame rate is and a lot of that, like it's still the set design is good. Yeah, like the set design of the costumes are good, like the like the casting is fine. I don't have any problem with the acting really. Like No.

Tom 1:14:11

Well, I mean, I actually don't even think the casting is good. I think I think their one one casting choice is good. I I like Lee Pace in these movies as well. He's not really in this movie that much, but like uh I mean I don't I don't I don't like Thor in the character.

Jen 1:14:24

I think he's awful, but for what he was served on a platter to act as the actor is doing what they asked him to do. Is he though? Is he I mean I guess he is, otherwise they wouldn't have made him do it. I don't know. You know, Peter Jackson doesn't mind kicking someone off a movie a couple weeks in.

Joe 1:14:42

So that's true, that's true. So he must have been uh he must have been all on board for what Richard Armitage brought to the table. Um I I think, yeah, I think it was just a big swing and a miss on the whole tone of the story, the the the story itself, and the character. A lot of the characters I think are just like miss, not necessarily miscast, but misplayed or misrepresented. Not a lot of them, some of them.

Jen 1:15:06

Who?

Joe 1:15:07

Thorin. Yeah, okay, most of the dwarves.

Jen 1:15:10

That's this there's not the rest of the dwarves don't have characters.

Joe 1:15:14

Yeah, the uh Azog, the Goblin King was a little uh, you know Radagast.

Tom 1:15:22

Radagast. Saruman in this movie.

Jen 1:15:24

No, Saruman.

Tom 1:15:25

Well, Saruman shouldn't be the same Saruman. Would it be dandelion?

Jen 1:15:31

I feel like he still acted like that.

Tom 1:15:34

This shouldn't be Saruman the White. It should be distinct. You can see that the Palantir's influenced him.

Joe 1:15:40

Yeah, it would have been nice if they did that. That's they had an opportunity to do that, Tom, and they didn't. They had they basically were saying, oh, he's he's bad right now. I could tell he's bad right now. Well, maybe he is, but he shouldn't be, is what Tom's saying. They have an opportunity, even if I I don't know the timeline in the story, but I think Tom's right. I don't think he's found the Palantir yet.

Jen 1:16:00

But also, even if he did, just would have been a great opportunity opportunity to show it in these movies.

Joe 1:16:07

He might, he might find it in these movies. It would have been a great opportunity to show him as a good person.

Tom 1:16:13

Right. He was there, he was the best of us. Sorry.

Jen 1:16:17

I don't necessarily think he's a bad person here.

Joe 1:16:19

I did like okay, sorry, calling back.

Jen 1:16:21

There was whatever, whatever, whatever. We're done.

Joe 1:16:23

There was uh no, that that reminded me of when Gandalf's talking about the wizards, and he's like, there's the two blue ones, and he's like, Yeah, I can't remember their names, which I thought was a funny joke because they're not named in Tolkien. Never named them. So I thought that was funny. All right, I'll throw that in there. Um so far, not a successful, successful movie, not a successful adaptation.

Tom 1:16:46

Right, right. Successful financially, yeah. No, yeah. I I think this right, we we talked about it before, radically misses the tone of the books.

Jen 1:16:54

Um but maybe on purpose. Yeah. Oh no, I think that movie wouldn't have made a billion dollars.

Joe 1:17:01

No, I think I think um I don't think that Peter Jackson missed the tone of the movie. Yeah, he intentionally changed it.

Jen 1:17:10

Yes.

Joe 1:17:12

Yeah.

Jen 1:17:12

Eyes wide open.

Joe 1:17:13

I I kept saying like they they missed the tone, but they didn't miss it. They just he willfully did not ignore it and made, you know, put his own tone on it or the the tone from the Lord of the Rings movies. Yes. Even more I feel like even more dramatic than the Lord of the Rings movies, to be honest with you.

Tom 1:17:29

Yeah, the Lord of the Rings movie, like it starts out light and funny. Yeah.

Joe 1:17:33

And it kind of carries that through it, and not like it's a much better job of interspersing the lightheartedness. Lord of the Rings did a much better job of that, interspersing it into the dramatic. Um, and this they I feel like they just drastically jump from one side to the other. Yeah.

Tom 1:17:48

It's really not until Return of the King. Return of the King really doesn't have much comedy in it. Uh Mary and Pippin are now serious at that point.

Jen 1:17:56

You know, so like just when Gimli says something about the orcs' nervous system. Yeah, I think that's in the extended it is.

Tom 1:18:04

That is, yeah.

Joe 1:18:06

You've seen those movies a lot, huh?

Jen 1:18:08

We just put them on sometimes and we're sleeping. So that's even these movies, like, because if you have it on HBO Max, they'll just be like, you want to watch The Hobbit. Oh, just I've seen some scenes, and I know people are in The Hobbit, these coming up movies that are just not in the book, nor should ever have been here. Oh, and thankfully they were cross that bridge to when we come to it.

Joe 1:18:27

Thankfully they are on HBO because there'd be there's no way I'm paying any money for these movies. So we have some more patrons to thank everybody. We're we're running through our list of patrons in our uh renaming of of them because we want to give them shout-outs on the new podcast. Yeah, so I'll continue with uh from where I left off. I'll read a I'll read a bunch here. Let's see, where I left off at Rauer last week, I think. Yes, purposely because I remember. Um, so next up we have Moss. Thank you, Moss. Haven't talked to Moss in a long time. I hope you're doing well, Moss. Um, Danielle, Haluk Tarkin. Haluk, we met Haluk in London, Tom. Remember?

Tom 1:19:07

I know we did, yeah. Yeah, we talked to Haluk. There's a photo somewhere.

Joe 1:19:11

There is a photo of us with Haluk. Uh Blue Eyes Sedai, Jamie R. Jason Enberg. Oh, we got it. I think we know who that is. Tim Raleigh, Gleam in Twitch, who is the same person, I'm pretty sure. Um Jen, you know this person, Michael Spillary.

Jen 1:19:29

Yes, I do.

Joe 1:19:30

He's a patron of ours. I didn't know that.

Jen 1:19:32

Still a patron? That's nice.

Joe 1:19:34

Yeah, he's still a patron. Uh Tessa Nix. Amis. Uh, Amise. Uh, Delusions of Grendel, Tiana Badio. Oh no, Tiana, we haven't seen. Do you does Tiana have a new calendar for she doesn't? Oh my god. So if you know, Tiana, if if you're on our Discord, Tiana has a a hen calendar she buys every year and posts the pictures of the hens on the calendar each month.

Tom 1:20:03

Maybe she's upset that the hen news is over.

Joe 1:20:06

We'll have to try and see if we could reach out to Tiana and get that going. Uh again. I would always forget about it, and then when she post it, I'd be like, oh, this just made my day.

Tom 1:20:15

It does. It was it was literally like three years. Just the happiest day.

Joe 1:20:20

Uh the Admiral, Gary D, Niner Advocate. Oh, I think we know Niner Advocate. Yeah, we know it all.

Tom 1:20:27

Yeah.

Joe 1:20:28

Uh JLou Rocks. And I'm gonna stop here at Mickey.

Tom 1:20:32

Hey, Mickey, all right.

Joe 1:20:33

Thank you all for sticking with us and supporting us. Yes. We appreciate you. I want to remind everyone to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Blue Sky. Join us over in Discord to continue the conversation there. Uh, we also post our episodes on YouTube, so be sure to go to our YouTube page to like and subscribe. Rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and check out our Patreon page to support us that way. Uh, links to all the aforementioned information are included in the show notes to this episode. Final thoughts, Jen and Tom.

Jen 1:21:06

Remember this. True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one.

Joe 1:21:13

Did you have that already ready to go? Oh, that's why you said when I said something like that. You did tease it. I didn't know you had a prep though.

Jen 1:21:21

Yep.

Joe 1:21:23

Didn't disappoint. Thank you, Jen. Um, Tom, anything?

Tom 1:21:27

I'm on top of that.

Joe 1:21:28

All right. Thanks everyone for listening, and you'll hear us next time.